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Saha wrote:Wraithbane wrote:Nonsense. In the type of complex client/server apps that MMO's require, mistakes are going to happen. Especially with a small team on their first game.
Insurance *** up doesn't have anything to do with complexity of client/server apps of MMOs. The topic mostly discussed here is not even that. It's another *** up - how did they handle the first *** up.
Wraithbane wrote:If those involved had done the responsible thing, and reported the *exploit* involved, and then moved on, we'd not be hearing all of the howling that we are now. But that wasn't nearly good enough for some.
Instead, they decided to use it to their advantage and produced huge amounts of NIC, which distorts the in game economy. I'm just glad it didn't take AC years, like some in EVE did to get corrected.
I'm glad that you had some time to read the thread and get some knowledge on the topic you are discussing. Ohh wait.
Wraithbane wrote:Sure the mistake was made by the Dev's, thats a given. But the players who exploited that for their own gain, made their own choice as well. In many games, actions like this would have resulted in a perma ban. Fortunately for some, AC decided not to go that route. This time.
Once again, failing to read _or_ comprehend on WTF the issue actually is.
Laughter!... Oh, I'm quite aware of whats going on here. Bottom line, those involved EXPLOITED an in game system in a fashion it was not intended to be used for, to their own benefit, and now they are howling like banshees because the fruits of their exploits have been taken from them. All of the rest of the smoke and mirrors some are attempting to use are just obfuscation, meant to distract from that fundamental point.
I have to give AC credit. Even with a small team and limited resources, they much more quickly addressed a serious exploit, in a more timely fashion than I've seen CCP do in some cases in EVE. That speaks well for their concern about the games economy. The fact that they also didn't perma ban those involved, speaks well of their even handed approach.
Liveware Problem wrote:Oh the tears! Bottom line is that if you hadn't cheated you wouldn't be crying now.
Exactly. Many companies would have been swinging the perma ban hammer over an exploit like this. The fact that AC didn't, this time, is to their credit.
Speedy Gonzalez wrote:Instead of admiting fact that Developers *** up with Insurace system, they put blame on corporations and people. Even worse, pointing fingers. "we wiped 1 billion nic" is big bullshit as well. They didn't wipe just insurance cash, they wiped everything, nic from sales, nic from assignments, nic from donations. And that's way more than 1 billion nic.
Blaming players about own *** ups is weak. Simple as that. You as company just lost a lot of credibility and trust.
Nonsense. In the type of complex client/server apps that MMO's require, mistakes are going to happen. Especially with a small team on their first game. If those involved had done the responsible thing, and reported the *exploit* involved, and then moved on, we'd not be hearing all of the howling that we are now. But that wasn't nearly good enough for some.
Instead, they decided to use it to their advantage and produced huge amounts of NIC, which distorts the in game economy. I'm just glad it didn't take AC years, like some in EVE did to get corrected.
Sure the mistake was made by the Dev's, thats a given. But the players who exploited that for their own gain, made their own choice as well. In many games, actions like this would have resulted in a perma ban. Fortunately for some, AC decided not to go that route. This time.
Redline wrote:Campana is right but Container has a point also. With more objectives mechs could become viable - but open pvp is and will be king. There should be no domitaing role in that - and if there should be one - of course not the cheapest bots. Thats common sense.
True as far as it goes. But unless you guys are fond of the zerg rush type tactic(where have we seen that before in another sci fi game?...^^), mechs and heavies should have more application than they currently do. Out posts should be MUCH more than they currently are. Their possession should seriously matter. Not to mention they should have defenses inherent to their nature. Mechs(and especially heavies) depending on their load out should have major advantages against lower class bots. On the other hand, if they aren't properly played, moded, they would be expensive losses.
As for open PvP... We've been round and round that topic before... If the Dev's want a limited appeal to a very *small* demographic, thats the way to proceed. If not, they will moderate their movement towards that objective.
Sad Panda wrote:I like ghosts. Are there any trolls in your town too?
Laughter... There are always Trolls around... ^^ I have noticed that there do seem to be fewer people around. Some of the more popular locations have been vacant for days. Roamed around a bit, and not seen more than a handful of people so far.
Alexander wrote:Wraithbane wrote:Alexander wrote:Full PVP games do work but the human race is breed to fear death and losses to the point they won't play them unless they're of the higher form of humanity. This is not a full PVP game. It's just a large part of it. This games circle of life includes PVP in most areas. Market, resources and combat.
People that can't accept loss can go back to a fluffy cuddly game. This game is no way full PVP and new PvE content is coming in all the time.
EVE has open-world anywhere PVP but also punishes you for it. EVE seems to work in my opinion. At least on Alpha we can't alpha-strike you and loot you lovely corpses.. Yet.. Roll on wars. Nowhere will be safe.
Well, the problem with that is, that as EVE has demonstrated, there are a lot more of us "fluffy, cuddly" CareBears than there are PvP types. If we leave the game, we take all of our lovely green Money with us.... ^^ Thats usually not considered to be good for a games business model. Games in which "Nowhere is safe" tend to have a VERY limited appeal, and thus a very limited profit base. Given what these games take to create and sustain, thats not at all a wise course of action.
50% of the games landmass is completely safe from players. 50% is mostly safe if you're in an alliance.
Money isn't green either. And nor should be eggs.
But what else goes with ham, if not green eggs? ^^ The worlds reserve currency(US dollar) is in fact green. Thus all roads lead(eventually) to New Rome on the Potomac. ^^
50% is safe so far. But given some of the direction we are seeing, it may not remain that way.
Alexander wrote:Full PVP games do work but the human race is breed to fear death and losses to the point they won't play them unless they're of the higher form of humanity. This is not a full PVP game. It's just a large part of it. This games circle of life includes PVP in most areas. Market, resources and combat.
People that can't accept loss can go back to a fluffy cuddly game. This game is no way full PVP and new PvE content is coming in all the time.
EVE has open-world anywhere PVP but also punishes you for it. EVE seems to work in my opinion. At least on Alpha we can't alpha-strike you and loot you lovely corpses.. Yet.. Roll on wars. Nowhere will be safe.
Well, the problem with that is, that as EVE has demonstrated, there are a lot more of us "fluffy, cuddly" CareBears than there are PvP types. If we leave the game, we take all of our lovely green Money with us.... ^^ Thats usually not considered to be good for a games business model. Games in which "Nowhere is safe" tend to have a VERY limited appeal, and thus a very limited profit base. Given what these games take to create and sustain, thats not at all a wise course of action.
Annihilator wrote:Wraithbane wrote:Absent that, most people will assume the worst, and thats not good for the games business model.
hmm, i didn't know that Wraithbane and Savin are "most" here.
Ingame, a DEV already announced that next patch will be about PvE issues. I did quote him somewhere too on that.
Im just waiting for the DEV blog entry about that.
Chuckle... It would hardly be the first(nor last) time that I'm been branded a heretic... ^^ Its been my experience over the decades, that in the absence of information, people will speculate and project. Given this context, and the situation, that does tend to bring out the worst. Thats not good for a new indy companies business model. Especially when they do not have an established player base yet.
Savin wrote:Annihilator wrote:if they are bringing back the police tower system on alpha island, with gray zones around the coast, and no political system, they will piss of the last few PvE based players and the population will get back to closed beta level (~100-200 active player) with the all the implications.
I think it's headed there already. Lately, every time I log in, some industry guy is leaving, and plenty of the players I know have told me that they'll let their subscription run out.
I can't say I blame them- there's nothing wrong with the last patch, it just makes the direction of the game a lot clearer. Just as Annihilator mentions, there's no political system, no changes to the market, nothing at all that would have held an industrialist's interest or balanced the recent changes. What's happening now is the realization that a lot of us had ideas about the game that the devs have no intention of pursuing.
On the plus side, the PvPers get more action, so they'll stick around, right? The game won't die, it will just solidify around a small group of like-minded people.
Thats my take on it as well, Savin. Many of us have been guilty of projecting our own hopes on to the games future. I know I am. This last patch made the Dev's objectives much clearer. As I mentioned, PvP is a lot easier to code and design for. Unfortunately, that also limits the potential profits to be made, but understanding the reality of that is usually beyond indy companies on their first game.
As I stated, this game needs either a Dev, or an experienced, well connected CM to handle dealing with the player base, and providing information and insight into the Dev's vision for the game. Absent that, most people will assume the worst, and thats not good for the games business model.
Tiggus wrote:you're listing your dream set of circumstances but there are plenty of folks who are able to stockpile ridiculous amounts of bots just living on alpha, in fact it's probably easier since you never take pvp losses on your industrials.
Don't lose 2-3 bots a day and there is no reason you can't be self sufficient in this game. If you lose a lot of bots, then yes you will have problems, and no corp is going to enjoy handing you freebies nonstop in that case.
Good points. As in much of human life, one gets more of what one rewards. If the Dev's want more PvP, they should set things up to reward that. Personally, I'd drop the NPC purchase of kernels out completely. Then set it up so that players can set up buy orders that tie into the terminal sell system. When a sell order comes in, it is matched to the highest buy order. When that is filled, it then starts filling the next highest(ect). This way the market for kernels is strictly player based.
Replace the income to be had by farming kernels with bounties(NPC and Player). It makes more sense within the context of the known lore. In terms of PvP, the higher a players rep with their corp, the higher the bounty on them would be. Rep would also be gained by killing members of the other mega corps on beta. Thus the better at killing other players one is, the higher the bounty on one becomes. Double edged sword... ^^
Neoxx wrote:Did this Ludwig guy change the fundamental biology of crops? If not, it is irrelevant to this thread.
This is a *** game, and they are trying to balance it. If the devs had some vested interest in having the economy working in their favor (they are playing the game in a corp and want to give themselves more power), then you post actually applies somewhat, but then just outright accuse them of being so instead. Posts like yours are either blatantly irrelevant or just beating around the bush because you're a coward. Which is it?
LOL!! What benefit would there be, for the games economy to work in the Dev's favor?? They have as much of anything as they might wish to give themselves. ^^ That has absolutely nothing to do with my post on the folly of central planning. Any accusations are entirely a figment of your fevered imagination. The rest isn't even worthy of a response.
DEV Zoom wrote:This is actually intended but was left out of the patch notes by mistake. Plants were too abundant and available right at your doorstep.
So the Dev's are now playing the role of the US Federal Reserve system? We've seen how well that has worked out since 1913... ^^ Central planning of an economy is a non starter for many of the reasons that Ludwig Von Mise, very well illustrated in his books at the start of the 20th century. Good intentions aren't nearly enough when one is dealing with the number of variables involved in a market economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek
An entertaining video on some of the Mise/Hayek concepts as opposed to Keynsian voodo can be found here. ^^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk
Greenleaf wrote:Tokugawa wrote:American arrogance? Some I'm sure.. but down here in Texas, we know who beat the Germans and stopped them from taking over your whole continent. Twice! No need to be grateful, we know how hard it must be to always be in our shadow. It will be okay. Deep down, we are grateful for all of you (that are not hypocritical self centered bastards always whining about the evil USA) great historic peoples that have been the foundations of civilization for centuries. I for one think the Dutch have done so much right.. I'd love to live there. Regardless, we Texans know where the center of the universe is, and it isn't the US. (Somewhere around Austin I'm pretty sure)
Are you Sarah Palin ?
This is how dumb you look ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyCsMrKQ45w
I think Toku just had a spudnut moment..
Green, you know, you seem much more likely to be a fan of Caribo Barbie than I would ever be... ^^ I'm more along the lines of Rothbard, Mise and Rockwell. Not to mention Jefferson and Paine.
Redline wrote:I like the steps they're taking:
they complete the game with several aspects on the current technical scale to sort of give the game a more rounded feel.
Things that are possible are new additions and variations on the current systems. Its right and logic that the game is completed aspect wise on the current level now.
Im sure afterwards theyll start extending the basis - so that all those nice ideas and their own of course can be taken into consideration again.
And these changes have to be done step wise starting from the lowest layer.
But overall - i understand the point of view of lonewolves - and surely it isnt easy. You should have seen what those romaing npc gangs and observers did on beta yesterday - it was actually great becasue it was kind of unpredictable and loosend the static atmosphere.
Well, I'm happy that you are enjoying yourself Red. ^^ From what I'm hearing those roaming packs of super bots are a serious PITA. Some people have been ambushed as they came out, from what I've read. As for the direction the game is headed, its becoming obvious that its not really a game I'm going to be in long term, mores the pity.
For the Diasuka set, no you can't have my stuff... ^^
Petteri Petraaja wrote:Am bit confused with this part..
This is only a very first step in our plan to bring a whole bunch of new content to the game for more stuff to do "between PvP sessions".
"Whole bunch of new content" ... sounds good
but..
"between PvP sessions" ... makes PvE sound like it is designed to be something we just halfheartedly do while waiting for the next exciting PvP session.
That does seem to be their perspective, doesn't it? PvE seems to be regarded as some type of "necessary evil", that they wish to spend the least amount of time possible on. Its apparently thought of as some type of "filler" for between rounds of thrilling and dynamic PvP combat...<Sorry I was channeling marketing there for a moment... ^^). Which is fine, if thats where they want the game to go. Its their game after all <shrug>. But the modern market pays little premium to pure PvP games, and games that focus on that end up niche, at best.
Draegos wrote:Savin wrote:No, Red, it's not about static playstyles- everyone, PvPers included, plays in a style that fits the game parameters, and today's patch introduces some major changes in those boundaries. The economy, resource gathering, and production have all changed in important ways- the majority of PvE players will have to change as well.
Also, be more specific: "there's more PvE now" is flat wrong; "there's more plaver versus NPC now" is much more accurate. PvE is more than that- it is politics, economics, industry, and research, all of which have clearly been subordinated to PvP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_environment
You know what he means. PvE refers to fighting computer controlled enemies in contrast to fighting other players. Industry & research is comparable to crafting/tradeskills in other games. They are not grouped together with PvE. The same with Politics and Economics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player
Politics & Economics can be grouped with PvP, since these are aspects of players competing against each other.
As to the OP, Kernel buy order prices were too high to begin with.
Too "high" compared to what?
Savin wrote:No, Red, it's not about static playstyles- everyone, PvPers included, plays in a style that fits the game parameters, and today's patch introduces some major changes in those boundaries. The economy, resource gathering, and production have all changed in important ways- the majority of PvE players will have to change as well.
Also, be more specific: "there's more PvE now" is flat wrong; "there's more plaver versus NPC now" is much more accurate. PvE is more than that- it is politics, economics, industry, and research, all of which have clearly been subordinated to PvP.
I think you have made an excellent and insightful point Savin. It is MUCH easier(time/talent wise) to give the PvP types what they want, than it is to create PvE content. By gradually making it more and more difficult for lone wolves and small corps, they kill two birds with one stone. They supply the PvP crowd with more moving targets, and they reduce the amount of time/talent they have to allocate to PvE design and application. Its really not wise from a business stand point, but that hasn't prevented such things in the past, with other indy companies.
Once most of us CareBears either leave, or get forced into one of the big corps, the Dev's will have a much easier time. I guess they have decided that they'd rather do that, and fore go higher long term profits, than spend a lot of time and talent on an area they have little personal interest in.
Phalanxx wrote:If kernels arent supposed to be a stable form of income for PVE'ers, maybe bounties could be introduced?
The fact is, I suspect they want as few PvE players in their game as possible. I know it doesn't make any business sense, but PvP players are easier to work with. After all, what they mainly care about is killing each other(endlessly). PvE takes more content, and content is one of the most time/talent expensive thing there is to create. Which would tend to explain their focus, and the changes we are seeing.
BobbyOne wrote:ive specced my toon for farming kernels, but now im buggered. With people not resubbing all the time in this game, becaase of being bored, youd think they might want to actually KEEP the people they've got. The missions suck, they dotn give enough rewards, the only thing i enjoyed was grinding for kernels, but now thats gone to hell too, way to go making the game even more useless. How are we suppose to make money in this game now, you make nothing from pvp, and unless you have more than one account, and can dedicate one solely to industry, how are you suppose to afford anything in this game?
Sadly, at this point I doubt they really care about the PvE side of things, and how their changes have negatively impacted it. Between kernal farming(90%) and assignments I was able to afford my AB's and a Ty mech(and all of the weapons and mods for them). In the absence of a way to continue with that, I see no real point to the game. Given that their player base is so small to start with, I really wonder how they think they can afford to take CCP's attitude in these matters.
Siddy, as difficult as it may be... At least make the attempt to be creative... ^^
AgY wrote:Well, Assignments (still) and Kernels are no longer worth the efford.... *shrug*
Am i supposed to become are gardener? 
No, you are supposed to run over to the beta islands and become moving target practice for the established corps. ^^ This game is tilting ever more towards the PvP side of things, so anyone not interested in such is really wasting their time.
Savin wrote:Yes, RR is the easiest way to go. Scouting can work too, just pick something other than an industrial bot to do it in.
Market PvP is pretty much impossible, unless you have several friends with you.
I'd advise spending more in combat related extensions- it's rather obvious now that PvP is the direction the devs are going.
Thats my take on their attitude as well. Its obvious which direction they are pushing the game. How thats going to work out in the mid to long term is any ones guess. But its not six years ago, and they don't really have an established player base to work with. CCP can get away with this attitude because they do have an established player base. But it wouldn't be the first(or last) time that Dev's Vision)tm) has iinterfered in a games success.
Olek wrote:Tokugawa wrote:American arrogance? Some I'm sure.. but down here in Texas, we know who beat the Germans and stopped them from taking over your whole continent. Twice! No need to be grateful, we know how hard it must be to always be in our shadow. It will be okay. Deep down, we are grateful for all of you (that are not hypocritical self centered bastards always whining about the evil USA) great historic peoples that have been the foundations of civilization for centuries. I for one think the Dutch have done so much right.. I'd love to live there. Regardless, we Texans know where the center of the universe is, and it isn't the US. (Somewhere around Austin I'm pretty sure)
Is this what they teach at school in Texas?, no wonder JW Bush could not string together a sentence.
Don't blame us for Bush. He's known as "All hat and no cattle" in many parts. ^^ The Bush family has always been more Yankee than many are comfortable with. One only has to look at their history to see that. As for The Shrub, he has many of the traits of a dry drunk. Given his past history, that too is to be expected.
Phalanxx wrote:'''Change:''' Kernel NPC buy order prices have been reduced. (by 1/2)
Curious why?
SERIOUSLY reduced. Their objective should be obvious, given some of the other changes we've seen. CCP can get away with that type of attitude because they have an established player base. Its not six years ago now, either. This does not bode well.
Well, let me tell you a good old Texas story. Some Yankee from up north was driving through Austin one day(happens, border control isn't what it used to be ^^). He pulls in to Billy Jo Bobs ribs, and walks up to the massive hard wood bar, and orders a beer. The bar tender looks him up and down, shakes his head(pity most likely) and sets a 5 gallon mug of beer in front of him. The Yankees eyes bug out, and he says whats this?!? Your beer, growled the bar tender. Everything's Big in Texas.
Next, the Yankee asks if they have any pretzels to go with his beer. The bar tender reaches under the bar, and with one hand drops a 50 pound bag of pretzels in front of the Yankee. The Yankees eyes bug out some more. The bar tender shrugs and says "everythings Big in Texas". Then he goes off to tend to some of the regulars.
After a bit, the Yankee starts to feel the effects of all of that beer and pretzels. He asks the bar tender where the rest room is. The bar tender hooks his thumb behind him and says down the hall and to the right. The Yankee (being a Yankee) goes down the hall and to the left, and falls into the indoor swimming pool. He then starts yelling "Don't Flush it! Don't Flush it!!"... ^^
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