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Topic: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

'''Change:''' Kernel NPC buy order prices have been reduced. (by 1/2)

Curious why?

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Phalanxx wrote:

'''Change:''' Kernel NPC buy order prices have been reduced. (by 1/2)

Curious why?

SERIOUSLY reduced. Their objective should be obvious, given some of the other changes we've seen.  CCP can get away with that type of attitude because they have an established player base.  Its not six years ago now, either.  This does not bode well.

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Well, Assignments (still) and Kernels are no longer worth the efford.... *shrug*
Am i supposed to become are gardener? yikes

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

AgY wrote:

Well, Assignments (still) and Kernels are no longer worth the efford.... *shrug*
Am i supposed to become are gardener? yikes

No, you are supposed to run over to the beta islands and become moving target practice for the established corps. ^^  This game is tilting ever more towards the PvP side of things, so anyone not interested in such is really wasting their time.

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

ive specced my toon for farming kernels, but now im buggered. With people not resubbing all the time in this game, becaase of being bored, youd think they might want to actually KEEP the people they've got. The missions suck, they dotn give enough rewards, the only thing i enjoyed was grinding for kernels, but now thats gone to hell too, way to go making the game even more useless. How are we suppose to make money in this game now, you make nothing from pvp, and unless you have more than one account, and can dedicate one solely to industry, how are you suppose to afford anything in this game?

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Join corps that subsidize combat players, offer discount bots, let you invest (and pretty much give yourself a salary), and provide bots for pvp. Like IRS, for example. :-x

Seriously, combat players are the tip of the sword and they need a big infrastructure behind them. If you are without a corp or are part of one that doesn't provide that infrastructure, you're at a disadvantage.

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

BobbyOne wrote:

ive specced my toon for farming kernels, but now im buggered. With people not resubbing all the time in this game, becaase of being bored, youd think they might want to actually KEEP the people they've got. The missions suck, they dotn give enough rewards, the only thing i enjoyed was grinding for kernels, but now thats gone to hell too, way to go making the game even more useless. How are we suppose to make money in this game now, you make nothing from pvp, and unless you have more than one account, and can dedicate one solely to industry, how are you suppose to afford anything in this game?

Sadly, at this point I doubt they really care about the PvE side of things, and how their changes have negatively impacted it.  Between kernal farming(90%) and assignments I was able to afford my AB's and a Ty mech(and all of the weapons and mods for them).  In the absence of a way to continue with that, I see no real point to the game.  Given that their player base is so small to start with, I really wonder how they think they can afford to take CCP's attitude in these matters.

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.
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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Don't be so dramatic, npc buy orders shouldn't had been there or at least should had been so high in the first place.
1, if it's harder to get money prices will go down too
2, kernels should be bought by players for their research, so try to sell them instead.

(Tough I agree that the game is not as pve friendly as eve (maybe just yet). To have everything the game could offer one should join a beta alliance-jut not Norhoop there are too many already smile.. wait I'm there too..)

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Euphoric wrote:

Join corps that subsidize combat players, offer discount bots, let you invest (and pretty much give yourself a salary), and provide bots for pvp. Like IRS, for example. :-x

Seriously, combat players are the tip of the sword and they need a big infrastructure behind them. If you are without a corp or are part of one that doesn't provide that infrastructure, you're at a disadvantage.

Yes, this is one good option- there are still roles for PvE players to fill, but they are shrinking in number. Of course, as more PvEers leave for other games, it might be possible to take up the slack on Alpha.

But I have a feeling that "big infrastructure" is going to shrink over time- these latest changes suggest that all resource-gathering will become just another incentive to PvP.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

10 Reply by AgY

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Savin wrote:

[...]

But I have a feeling that "big infrastructure" is going to shrink over time- these latest changes suggest that all resource-gathering will become just another incentive to PvP.

My point is: My account is just five days old and i want to play PvP (really). But i need enough Eps and Money in order to buy and operate decent/competitive gear and experience.
Problem is i dont want to spend hours sitting on a title and mine/harvest crap in order to earn money... However i have fun blowing up npcs or doing military assignments dozen of times.

With the recent change all thats worth doing is mine or harvest. Go figure if im going to buy a sub when my retail key expires..

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

If kernels arent supposed to be a stable form of income for PVE'ers, maybe bounties could be introduced?

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

AgY wrote:

My point is: My account is just five days old and i want to play PvP (really). But i need enough Eps and Money in order to buy and operate decent/competitive gear and experience.
Problem is i dont want to spend hours sitting on a title and mine/harvest crap in order to earn money... However i have fun blowing up npcs or doing military assignments dozen of times.

With the recent change all thats worth doing is mine or harvest. Go figure if im going to buy a sub when my retail key expires..

The change wouldn't be so bad if there were another dynamic to replace the lost income- but there isn't, so new players like you are stuck. Luckily, you're in a solid corp- maybe they can help you?

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

13 Reply by AgY

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Heh im sure they would if id ask wink
But im used to learn things "the hard way" and pay with my own money until i know what im doing.

yarr

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Phalanxx wrote:

If kernels arent supposed to be a stable form of income for PVE'ers, maybe bounties could be introduced?

The fact is, I suspect they want as few PvE players in their game as possible. I know it doesn't make any business sense, but PvP players are easier to work with. After all, what they mainly care about is killing each other(endlessly).  PvE takes more content, and content is one of the most time/talent expensive thing there is to create.  Which would tend to explain their focus, and the changes we are seeing.

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

I hear a lot of anger about this change, and to be honest I am unhappy with it as well. I am willing to see how it pans however, and adapt to changes. Obviously the Devs felt this needed a change.

My only question is why?

As it stood before this, it seemed most miners at about my skill level made slightly less per hour if you counted my PVE loot as : fragments, reprocess, decoders, rare item drops and of course kernels. I always felt this was a fair balance as miners arent required to maintain 'twitch' style activity for the full duration of their gathering process. Basically they are required to check on their doings every minute or few minutes even.

Now it seems I will be on an almost even nik/hour playing field as the miners with a lot more focused attention required on my end. Maybe I'm seeing only a small piece of the picture. Maybe this change is an unintended consequence to an imbalance somewhere else that had to do with kernels.

I'll suck it up and continue. I love the game. Just curious.

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Wraithbane wrote:

The fact is, I suspect they want as few PvE players in their game as possible. I know it doesn't make any business sense, but PvP players are easier to work with. After all, what they mainly care about is killing each other(endlessly).  PvE takes more content, and content is one of the most time/talent expensive thing there is to create.  Which would tend to explain their focus, and the changes we are seeing.

I think this is right, and I expect that future patches will see more of the same. But it makes good business sense to me- such a small company can't really make the investment that depth of content would require.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***
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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Phalanxx wrote:

I hear a lot of anger about this change, and to be honest I am unhappy with it as well. I am willing to see how it pans however, and adapt to changes. Obviously the Devs felt this needed a change.

My only question is why?

Take a look at the "What do you expect from PvE" and "PvE v. PvP" threads, and you'll get a rationale for these changes. Imagine that you asked certain PvPers what they wanted most, and you'd get a simple answer: "we want to attack all those miners on Alpha." This patch is a big step towards granting that ability.


Phalanxx wrote:

Now it seems I will be on an almost even nik/hour playing field as the miners with a lot more focused attention required on my end. Maybe I'm seeing only a small piece of the picture. Maybe this change is an unintended consequence to an imbalance somewhere else that had to do with kernels.

There was no imbalance with kernels- the 'imbalance' was that not enough PvE players were presenting themselves as targets. Now, industry-oriented players have a limited set of choices: if they want to make high-level stuff, they will need to join a Beta corp or make some sort of arrangement for protection; if they don't want to do that, they will have to spend EP to gear up for defense; if they don't want to do that, they must accept an effective cap on what they can reliably produce; if they don't want to do that, they can find another game.

Phalanxx wrote:

I'll suck it up and continue. I love the game. Just curious.

There are many who share that sentiment- I wonder how long it will last?

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

18 Reply by Redline (edited by Redline 2011-02-05 02:33:20)

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Kernels also been my primary income source - and they will prolly still be - theres just a loss from yesterday to now. Up from today everybody earns the same again - things will be cheaper if inflation is decreased.

And theres more pve there now - roaming npc gangs which are pretty fun and make things not that predictable.

Also - plantable crop - is a good step into the sandbox direction.

I think - you guys above - adapted to a static playstyle within some weeks only. Being a recycler now is much more important and btw - i earned the same amount of nic with repairing or recycling the loot that dropped when farming 500 kernels aaday - back then.

Kernels being worth less now means - you can make easy nic by farming npc, repair and recycle the loot.

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

No, Red, it's not about static playstyles- everyone, PvPers included, plays in a style that fits the game parameters, and today's patch introduces some major changes in those boundaries. The economy, resource gathering, and production have all changed in important ways- the majority of PvE players will have to change as well.

Also, be more specific: "there's more PvE now" is flat wrong; "there's more plaver versus NPC now" is much more accurate. PvE is more than that- it is politics, economics, industry, and research, all of which have clearly been subordinated to PvP.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***
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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Savin wrote:

No, Red, it's not about static playstyles- everyone, PvPers included, plays in a style that fits the game parameters, and today's patch introduces some major changes in those boundaries. The economy, resource gathering, and production have all changed in important ways- the majority of PvE players will have to change as well.

Also, be more specific: "there's more PvE now" is flat wrong; "there's more plaver versus NPC now" is much more accurate. PvE is more than that- it is politics, economics, industry, and research, all of which have clearly been subordinated to PvP.

I think you have made an excellent and insightful point Savin.  It is MUCH easier(time/talent wise) to give the PvP types what they want, than it is to create PvE content. By gradually making it more and more difficult for lone wolves and small corps, they kill two birds with one stone.  They supply the PvP crowd with more moving targets, and they reduce the amount of time/talent they have to allocate to PvE design and application. Its really not wise from a business stand point, but that hasn't prevented such things in the past, with other indy companies.

Once most of us CareBears either leave, or get forced into one of the big corps, the Dev's will have a much easier time.  I guess they have decided that they'd rather do that, and fore go higher long term profits, than spend a lot of time and talent on an area they have little personal interest in.

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21 Reply by AgY

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Kernel prices are back to "normal". Thx for fixing that!

And btw i dont think that they intentionally sacrifice PvE for PvP.

22 Reply by Draegos (edited by Draegos 2011-02-05 06:17:54)

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Savin wrote:

No, Red, it's not about static playstyles- everyone, PvPers included, plays in a style that fits the game parameters, and today's patch introduces some major changes in those boundaries. The economy, resource gathering, and production have all changed in important ways- the majority of PvE players will have to change as well.

Also, be more specific: "there's more PvE now" is flat wrong; "there's more plaver versus NPC now" is much more accurate. PvE is more than that- it is politics, economics, industry, and research, all of which have clearly been subordinated to PvP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_environment

You know what he means. PvE refers to fighting computer controlled enemies in contrast to fighting other players. Industry & research is comparable to crafting/tradeskills in other games. They are not grouped together with PvE. The same with Politics and Economics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player

Politics & Economics can be grouped with PvP, since these are aspects of players competing against each other.


As to the OP, Kernel buy order prices were too high to begin with.

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

honestly it shouldnt matter if kernel npc prices dropped, unless you are farming level 1's you'll make vastly more nic selling to other players anyways. All it does is encourage PVE players to make MORE money, by not instaselling to npcs, and selling to players instead.

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Draegos wrote:
Savin wrote:

No, Red, it's not about static playstyles- everyone, PvPers included, plays in a style that fits the game parameters, and today's patch introduces some major changes in those boundaries. The economy, resource gathering, and production have all changed in important ways- the majority of PvE players will have to change as well.

Also, be more specific: "there's more PvE now" is flat wrong; "there's more plaver versus NPC now" is much more accurate. PvE is more than that- it is politics, economics, industry, and research, all of which have clearly been subordinated to PvP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_environment

You know what he means. PvE refers to fighting computer controlled enemies in contrast to fighting other players. Industry & research is comparable to crafting/tradeskills in other games. They are not grouped together with PvE. The same with Politics and Economics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player

Politics & Economics can be grouped with PvP, since these are aspects of players competing against each other.


As to the OP, Kernel buy order prices were too high to begin with.


Too "high" compared to what?

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Re: Question to the Devs on kernel NPC buy orders.

Wraithbane wrote:

Too "high" compared to what?

Compared to player buy orders. The NPC buy orders should have been significantly lower to begin with.