1 (edited by Container 2011-02-11 09:57:27)

Topic: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

Dear DEVs,

After many discussions and interactions with many different players I have the 2 reasons why Perpetuum is not vibrant enough.  "It's all about the dangling carrot.  Do you feel you have something to work towards?" one of my corp mates said.  Thanks Elric!  You pointed out exactly what is missing in Perpetuum.  INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT.

Problem:
1. INCENTIVES TO PLAY: Perpetuum's more EP-intensive and expensive bots are not worth the effort and time.

In virtually all MMOs, it's all about earning more powerful ships, gear, bots you desire.  When you stop desiring the next shiny, that is when the game dies. 
To give an example, people subscribe for months to gain skill points, and madly mine or kill NPCs for weeks to be able to use a Heavy Assault Cruiser or a Capital ship in stEVE.  This desire drives long-term subscriptions, player retention for years not months and the cost drives the entire economy.
However, player after player I have spoken to in Perpetuum have expressed emptiness and meaninglessness after they have gotten into their Mechs or Heavy Mechs.

They are expensive, they move slowly and are sitting ducks and you seldom use them.
You need to make the more advanced bots cooler and stronger versus the basic bots or the the very reason to subscribe for EP and earn NIC for them disappears and the game and economy becomes lifeless.
EWAR light online is not going to hold long-term interest.
Make the more EP-intensive, expensive bots worth it or the game will die in months.
Disregard this if you will, but the number of players who mentioned this problem is huge.

2. INCENTIVES TO FIGHT: Insufficient Incentive to win Intrusions.

Fine, so you create the Intrusion system to generate beta corp conflict.  Good idea.
Where it falls is there is simply no reason to own the stations.
Some puny tax is far far too weak an incentive to lose bots to win it.
Let station owners have rights to restrict the market to friendly corps or to restrict docking to friendly corps.
Then you will see some real fights.
Once again.  INCENTIVES.

If you ignore these root causes of player disinterest, you are just making insignificant changes that have only small effects.  INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT.

Sincerely,
Container

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

2. Ahhh ... so you never wanted that outpost anyway wink

Annihilator said: Walking careless onto hokko without masking is like jumping into a bathtub with the hungry 30cm piranhas (infestation)
GLiMPSE™'s CoolPoints™ Leaderboard

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

/signed

In addition to 2 we need POS. Last night was great fun mining as an alliance but that will only hold appeal when events like that satisfy the desires in 1 including being able to build and hold things of value. In stEVE when POS arrived, my old corps saw a huge re-interest in building POS for the corps and holding areas for our collective gain in 1. Right now, there's no long term goal to have other than wait for the next patch.

"like Kalsius, a shameless carebear and jitalover" - Syndic
http://www.perpetuum-intelligence.com
http://www.perpetuum-intelligence.com/killboard/

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

You've had plenty of incentives to play and you're choosing not to fight.

Welcome to 12 months ago. This game has NEVER had a reason other than greed to play.

The Game

5 (edited by Container 2011-02-11 09:41:39)

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

Alexander wrote:

This game has NEVER had a reason other than greed to play.

Exactly.
Player activity IS driven by GREED in virtually all MMOs and this is a good thing.
Greed for gear, greed for resources.
The problem is the incentives in Perpetuum for activity are not enough to be greedy over.

GREED FOR SHINY SHIP/BOTS/GEAR.
By not rewarding players who train more EP or grind for expensive bots with bots that are worth the effort, you negate the interest of players to expend any effort grinding or spend real life money subscribing for EP.

GREED FOR CONTROL OVER SCARCE RESOURCES.
By not giving control over resources or at least access to stations for intrusions,
You take away the very reasons to compete actively for stations.  Competition is a driver of player activity, take away reasons to compete and zzzzz.
There is no linkage to control of stations and control over resources or access.  zzzzz

Fix the incentives, and player activity will revive and increase.
Ignore incentives, and expect people to get distracted by other games with better returns to effort.  Greed is good smile

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

you had incentive to roll 70 guys on our outpost yesterday, and this morning you did have not incentive to fight us 1:1 ratio?

Ok, go back to WoW roll

7 (edited by Jita 2011-02-11 09:47:21)

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

i think people are just bored of alrm clocking intrusions that dont happen tbh and both sides are most likely in agreement with that.

My short term intrusion fix would be:

Make registering for an intrusion cost 50 mil that is none refundable

In order to capture a station you would register with NO warning. You would then get three saps, active, passive, specimen. After completing this the station would need to be hit again. The defender would be able to pick a time slot between 24 and 48 hours away. Preferably this would not be exact but have a four hour window picked randomly around the defenders choice of defending time. This would be a destruction SAP with around 1M hitpoints.

The attacker should have to put something on the line to register for an intrusion and they should be at a timezone disadvantage when attacking.

Given these conditions you might have some idea of if people turn up or not and then you might see some actual fights instead of blueballs and take / retake games.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

8 (edited by Container 2011-02-11 10:04:07)

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

DEVs seem to worry too much that more experienced, older players shut out newer players with advantages of more EP, NIC, beta island ownership.

Therefore they make cheap, low-EP bots super powerful so they can kill much higher EP more expensive bots.

Therefore they make station ownership without consequence.

Hurray, the newbie has an easier time of it.
Until he/she realizes there is no carrot at the end of the effort to EP up, to earn NIC, to join a Beta corp and compete for stations.
Bye bye any motivation to advance in the game or play more vigorously.

Where is the path of progression in this game?  In other games, an older player is much more powerful than a younger one.  This is the reward players have for their efforts.

When you make the gains to time and effort so low, you lose the entire progress persistency element that draws people to MMOs and it is just a lousy 3rd person shooter.

9 (edited by Kristan Delorian 2011-02-11 12:25:12)

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

I think we should make our own fun without Devs point where and how. We have all the possibilities.

And there should be one thing that all megacorps should be intrested in, like a new beta island, the superior one, with fortresses and such kind of stuff. The desired land worth fighting for and controlling it. I think there will be all bots who will fight for it, mechs, heavy mechs. Maybe there should be something what light bots cant handle, like stational turrets which can shoot them down, but mechs and heavies can destroy them. Good point to make mixed and balanced squads.

But Im afraid if that will happen, it wont be any soon. We must be patient or create events on our own and have fun of it.

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

Agreed, there is a design consistency breach between character progression and bot progression.

Characters progress time based whereas there is no real progressions in bot models. They perfectly fit the design of for each assignment role a different model - and this contradicts the advancement idea of characters and their EP.

Its of course not wrong that EWs can be used effectively by an early player compared to rather new players - DEVs put a lot of effort in that structuring and all the numbers to be reasonable - but the fun factor is missing a lot.

In a mech or heavy you should just be able to crush EWs or lights while walking through them and stomp them.

That would reflect the differences in proper way. ATM mechs or heavies are more like Baby Huey - except that he is much more powerful then mechs/heavies.

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

i agree.. this game is slowly dieing...

sad, had a great start

12 (edited by Container 2011-02-11 13:47:56)

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

Redline wrote:

Agreed, there is a design consistency breach between character progression and bot progression.

Yes, this is a very serious problem not to be overlooked that is at the very root of why Perpetuum is not more popular.
There is no feeling of progression to better bots.

Mech and Heavy Mech pilots end up scratching their heads why they bothered putting in months of subscriptions, mined epriton and spend days/weeks of NIC to use heavy turtles only used in very rare situations.
And that are at the mercy of EWAR lights, bots that weeks old newbies can easily pilot.

Balance in MMOs should grant advantages to units/bots that take more EP to train.
The consistent gaining of EP and of farming NIC has to pay off as some form of significant advantage in bot power.  Not the very small increment that it currently is.
Many players are disappointed with how Mechs are underwhelming compared to Assaults/light bots.
And Heavy Mechs SHOULD justify the ridiculous prices.

People play MMOs to experience a feeling of significant permanent progress, of being stronger than a new player.
Otherwise they must as well play an FPS or some action game with no persistency elements.
DEVs, the mechs and heavy mechs ARE NOT delivering the sense of progress needed to hold people's interest.
You really need to make them much much cooler and more powerful and interesting because the draw of an MMO is the most advanced craft/character.

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

I agree with number 1.  Heavy combat mechs are a joke.

The Enclave - A mature, friendly, and cooperative corporation.

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

A blogpost about the coming updates is in the works, a little more patience please.

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

I dont know why you're so upset about mechs. Mechs can shoot light bots too. 1vs1 light bot goes kaboom. Or you want to kill 5 light bots with 1 mech? This is kinda unbalanced and makes mechs uber. Cruisers in EvE are bad agains frigates too, but people keep using them, because there is much larger targets to shoot and be effective. But we dont have them right now. Mechs against mechs are rare combats for now. Just dont go around alone, assaults are good friends of mechs to fight agains lights.

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

Kristan Delorian wrote:

Just dont go around alone, assaults are good friends of mechs to fight against lights.

See?  You just made the argument.
Train months of EP, spend hours/days farming NIC.
For a bot that cannot go around alone.
The bot that gets not taken on roams.
Great.  Just great.
Train more so you can get in a more useless bot.

Heavier ships in EVE are not as disadvantaged as heavier bots in Perpetuum.
Why?  Warping around, use of bookmarks, bubbles, docking games and gate mechanics enable them to overcome the problems of their lower mobility.

In Perpetuum, there is only ONE type of movement, walking.
If you are too slow you are USELESS in the majority of PVP.
No matter how much firepower or defences you are carrying.
1) Too slow to catch anything - speed gap with fastest bots too high
2) Weapons too big to hurt small things - weapon size of med weapons too high

So.. after training months of EP you end up in a MORE USELESS not MORE USEFUL bot in roaming PVP.
Heavy Mechs... that SLOW SLOW speed... don't even start..
No point of doing all the damage and tanking in the world if you can't get to your targets or run from gangs.

So many players.. training EP so they can get into a better bot end up in a worse bot.
DEVs better wake up to how disappointed many players are with this and log in less and less and eventually quit.

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

no objectives : iwar win
objective : mech win
now we don't have objective. But if we have POS big_smile

for me the problem is not the power of mech vs iwar, the problem is iwar can ever escape, there is no anti iwar.

18 (edited by Carcass 2011-02-11 14:59:30)

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

what? i dont understand

19 (edited by Kristan Delorian 2011-02-11 15:02:59)

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

Container wrote:
Kristan Delorian wrote:

Just dont go around alone, assaults are good friends of mechs to fight against lights.

See?  You just made the argument.
Train months of EP, spend hours/days farming NIC.
For a bot that cannot go around alone.
The bot that gets not taken on roams.
Great.  Just great.
Train more so you can get in a more useless bot.

Excuse me, but do roaming gangs contains 1 player and other light bots are AI controled? I guess not. There is people in such gangs, not a single player. And this is MMORPG goddamit, it means to be cooperated with other players. This is not all about you walking around alone and pwning everythin whats moving. Its all about cooperation with other players. 1 light bot can suck a thumb if it walks alone and been catched by a mech which can shoot for 300(!!!) meters, far beyond locking range of this light bot. The only thing this bot can do is run for its life.

And so what if mech is slow? Light bots cant approach to it without a threat being shot or heavily damaged. Even I can shoot light bots being armed with !AUTOCANNONS! Beat that, crybaby.

20 (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-02-11 15:03:56)

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

Container wrote:
Kristan Delorian wrote:

Just dont go around alone, assaults are good friends of mechs to fight against lights.

See?  You just made the argument.
Train months of EP, spend hours/days farming NIC.
For a bot that cannot go around alone.
The bot that gets not taken on roams.
Great.  Just great.
Train more so you can get in a more useless bot.

Heavier ships in EVE are not as disadvantaged as heavier bots in Perpetuum.
Why?  Warping around, use of bookmarks, bubbles, docking games and gate mechanics enable them to overcome the problems of their lower mobility.

In Perpetuum, there is only ONE type of movement, walking.
If you are too slow you are USELESS in the majority of PVP.
No matter how much firepower or defences you are carrying.
1) Too slow to catch anything - speed gap with fastest bots too high
2) Weapons too big to hurt small things - weapon size of med weapons too high

So.. after training months of EP you end up in a MORE USELESS not MORE USEFUL bot in roaming PVP.
Heavy Mechs... that SLOW SLOW speed... don't even start..
No point of doing all the damage and tanking in the world if you can't get to your targets or run from gangs.

So many players.. training EP so they can get into a better bot end up in a worse bot.
DEVs better wake up to how disappointed many players are with this and log in less and less and eventually quit.

Despite what you may think... heavy mechs are not worse then light bots.

In an engagement of even numbers having more properly fit heavies on the field significantly increases your chance of winning.

If you're looking for a mech that can fight 5v1 you're playing the wrong game... doing this would put far to much emphasis on bots and it would deter any new players from ever starting the game.... because they'd "have no chance" against the larger bots.

Sounds like you guys are on the verge of a civil war over there on Norhoop... will this be the second alliance that has split because of us? Please accept our apologies.


Kind Regards,
GLiMPSE™

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

Kristan Delorian wrote:
Container wrote:
Kristan Delorian wrote:

Just dont go around alone, assaults are good friends of mechs to fight against lights.

See?  You just made the argument.
Train months of EP, spend hours/days farming NIC.
For a bot that cannot go around alone.
The bot that gets not taken on roams.
Great.  Just great.
Train more so you can get in a more useless bot.

Excuse me, but do roaming gangs contains 1 player and other light bots are AI controled? I guess not. There is people in such gangs, not a single player. And this is MMORPG goddamit, it means to be cooperated with other players. This is not all about you walking around alone and pwning everythin whats moving. Its all about cooperation with other players. 1 light bot can suck a thumb if it walks alone and been catched by a mech which can shoot for 300(!!!) meters, far beyond locking range of this light bot. The only thing this bot can do is run for its life.

And so what if mech is slow? Light bots cant approach to it without a threat being shot or heavily damaged. Even I can shoot light bots being armed with !AUTOCANNONS! Beat that, crybaby.

300? My gropho does 600 sad

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

GLiMPSE wrote:

300? My gropho does 600 sad

Even better!

23 (edited by Purgatory 2011-02-11 15:12:34)

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

GLiMPSE wrote:
Kristan Delorian wrote:
Container wrote:

See?  You just made the argument.
Train months of EP, spend hours/days farming NIC.
For a bot that cannot go around alone.
The bot that gets not taken on roams.
Great.  Just great.
Train more so you can get in a more useless bot.

Excuse me, but do roaming gangs contains 1 player and other light bots are AI controled? I guess not. There is people in such gangs, not a single player. And this is MMORPG goddamit, it means to be cooperated with other players. This is not all about you walking around alone and pwning everythin whats moving. Its all about cooperation with other players. 1 light bot can suck a thumb if it walks alone and been catched by a mech which can shoot for 300(!!!) meters, far beyond locking range of this light bot. The only thing this bot can do is run for its life.

And so what if mech is slow? Light bots cant approach to it without a threat being shot or heavily damaged. Even I can shoot light bots being armed with !AUTOCANNONS! Beat that, crybaby.

300? My gropho does 600 sad

300 is gimp fitting, my tyrannos does 550+ with standard ammo and that's about as far as I can lock without remote sensor amps anyway.

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

Lets quit measuring our e-pingases, shall we? Topic is not about it.

Re: Root Issue: INCENTIVES TO PLAY, INCENTIVES TO FIGHT

Seems you are talking about use of heavy mech in intrusions.
Sure they may be useful in Intrusions.
However, if DEVs are using intrusions to balance bots, they are very very out of touch with the average player of Perpetuum.
Only a very tiny percentage of players in Perpetuum actually care about intrusions.

Therefore, intrusions performance = not an incentive.

As to the guy talking about this nice imaginary situation of Mechs being useful on roams.
Actually, no.
Mechs don't get brought on roams except out of boredom.
Heavy Mechs don't get brought on roams.
Only light bots, assaults and EWAR lights get brought on roams.

Roams = 99% of PVP in Perpetuum.
Useful classes for roams: light bots, assaults and EWAR lights.  minimal EP required.
Useless classes for roams: mechs, heavy mechs.  Massive EP required.
Ergo, training mechs/heavy mechs is useless for most PVP
Ergo, there is no path of progression of EP for PVP except just some modest improvement in how well you can train light bot skills.

This is why I say the lack of bot strength progression with EP will not keep players interest in upgrading to the next bot.
Because the next bot is worse than the basic ones.
You thereby remove the incentive of the average MMO player (not the trolls, not the gankers, the quiet citizens who play the GAME not the meta-game) to play.
To upgrade themself to a more powerful character/bot/class.