So anyway, Greenleaf, now that the angry German kid has admitted to wanting to grief people, let's return to the question:

What are your thoughts on PvE? Are you satisfied?

Drom, buddy, keep telling me I'm owning myself, and maybe it will come true. Just like you tell yourself that you're more than a halfwit who took a computer class or two.

Only 20 years? I have you beat there, too. Double it, then we'll talk, little man.

I have to give you props, you're doing a good job- even now, you argue from an authority you don't have- you're a kid who took a programming class that someone called "systems design," and now you think you're something else.

But look, that's irrelevant: I'm wiser than you, much, much, smarter than you, and a hell of a better writer than you. So by all means, keep it up: I have experience, intelligence, and the English language on my side. You do, however, have impotent rage- and that's something.

This is your answer? Go play another game? Keep up that attitude, and yes, Perpetuum will be a single player game. I hope you like it.

This is a false distinction, and utterly irrelevant to the discussion.

I think it should affect you- after all, you, as a member of a corp that is part of an alliance that fights for control of the beta islands, affect the PvE game. As you say, Quid Pro Quo.

You already do have an effect (although granted, it's limited right now because nobody is is clever  or skilled enough to take advantage of it) on PvE. But I agree with you that there should be more of a connection between the two, but nothing as short-sighted as draining harvesters: that's just another example of griefing.

I say: continue to introduce resources that can only be gathered in territory that is won in PvP combat- not just epitron, but half a dozen elements, all of them required to make anything T5 or higher. Continue to require kernels from NPC bots that take a combat team to kill. Industrialists should have to pay a premium for the resources that the PvPers win- but PvPers need to start paying a premium to the PvEers, too.

It appears that your definition of "quid pro quo" is "Zildjian gets whatever he wants, but PvE players can only operate when he allows it." The items and abilities that are exclusive to PvE players must be an integral part of the game: otherwise it will remain one-dimensional. I'm describing a much more intricate, challenging game, and you're describing Space Invaders.

I agree- so the answer is to make more of the content reliant upon players. Give the game more depth, make it more than blob A versus blob B. PvPers love to sound off about "risk," but they have no clue what real risk is as they traipse around in their free robots, knee deep in unlimited resources and unquenchable money flow.

REAL risk, PvP junkies, is where your corp loses half of its worth when it loses a major battle. REAL risk means you can't afford to keep a few dozen mechs ready-at-hand because you can't afford the storage space. REAL risk means that if you start griefing people, you suddenly can't afford ammo any longer.

This is fine, but you seem to fail to realize that it puts the same burdens that you describe above, if not more, on the developers. At best, it's a short-term answer.

Follow your own advice.

What exactly is the problem for PvP players, other than they can't grief people whenever they please?

You're entitled to this opinion, but I doubt that many PvE players will agree.

Once again, you're looking at it from a very shallow, one-sided point of view. Don't tell us you go both ways, because you clearly don't.

This is your solution? Free PvP on Alpha, but 'limited' by guards? Do you honestly think that would keep PvPers from griefing?

But back to the main point: you're arguing for a way to improve PvP, not PvE. I don't think PvEers would stick around for your solution any more than they would for the addition of more NPC bots.

As we've mentioned before, the current PvE system works an adjunct to PvP: if you want to keep PvE players around, exposing it to even more PvP is not the answer. They need something with more depth.

I'm sorry, but you're making a fallacious argument. If you want to claim that a 'true' sandbox has no restrictions whatsoever, then you're arguing for the impossible- a true student of systems theory would understand this, and know better.

What you describe might be enjoyable for certain bloodthirsty types, but would be unappealing for most others. Moreover, it would be a very one-dimensional game: everyone would be forced to play in exactly the same way, which is fine for you, but I suspect not for the majority.

This is what we were looking for- thank you.

This is an interesting idea (at the moment, it reminds me of the upcoming Rift ). But where do the economic-minded players fit in? Won't someone who's spent all his EP in industry or mining be at a serious disadvantage. He'd have to start an alt in order to fight these NPCs, or establish the same system as currently stands in beta: he could only gather resources under the protection of combat-minded corpmates.

Well, you're long on unfounded authority, but short on actual argument.

I don't care how many times you've "seen it," please explain to the rest of us how is it that PvP is a farce? It seems quite a few people are enjoying it.

This makes no sense at all. Please explain how the "concept" of a system (which system? Perpetuum's?  A game?) requires that players be forced to PvP?

This appears to contradict what you previously said- I thought we couldn't have consensual PvP?

In short, it's clear that you want to grief other players. But you'll have to find some reasons to support it.

Of course it couldn't get more balanced, because you've completely removed one side of the equation: there is nothing to balance, as everyone will be doing the same thing.

I notice that some posters in this thread have the notion that "letting us attack anyone we want, when we want" somehow enriches the PvE game. It doesn't. You're just asking for the ability to farm PvE players.

For that matter, the addition of more NPC bots (and structures, and so on) wouldn't help the PvE people either: a dedicated PvE player couldn't kill them anyway, or, supposing he could, he'd still lose out to the PvP guys with their better range, targeting, locking, and so on.

The bottom line: if you want to keep people interested in the non-PvP side of things, you will have to give them something that PvPers cannot have.

That's a good idea- using the recording as a diagnostic for the graphic engine. I'll see what I can do.