26

(31 replies, posted in General discussion)

*edit: Removed non-appropriate quote. - DEV Zoom

I agree with almost all of this!

27

(31 replies, posted in General discussion)

I agree it looks awesome.

28

(89 replies, posted in General discussion)

justwalkedinonahotlesbianthreesome/10

29

(43 replies, posted in General discussion)

Syndic wrote:

A small amount will be destroyed by paying for repairing modules by the victors, a small amount will be destroyed by buying new stuff (market fees, production fees, etc). Also, bear in mind its a 4-stage production for T4 modules so the actual production cost goes up quite a bit.

What it does is generate more movement on the market, which in turn encourages producers to buy more ore to satisfy a rising demand, which encourages miners to offer more ore for sale to satisfy rising producer demand, which encourages PVPers to roam and try to kill miners, which encourages PVPers to protect their miners, which leads us straight back to PVP encouraging producers to cater to a rising demand for modules.

That is just for "PVP", this would also encourage PVE as producers and prototypers would have more need for decoders, kernels, fragments etc.

The insurance injects a "certain" amount of NIC, essentially narrowing the amount needing to be grinded before someone is re-equipped for PVP.

Best thing? This "NIC sink" is already implemented in-game. Instead of trying to invent warm water, all the Devs need to do is stimulate PVP.

Jack Jombardo wrote:

Wrong.

Mioku wrote:

I'm sorry you are clueless

30

(43 replies, posted in General discussion)

Jita wrote:
Alexander wrote:

Mostly, No.
There is no benefit selling on the open market.
A small corps of 20+ people can be total self sufficient.

Its a popular misconception driven by the top corps in the game that NIC is useless and they dont need it. In fact all of these corps rely on NIC and generally use either higher tier tech sales or the selling of epriton to facilitate the buying of minerals so that they cut down the amount of time it takes them to produce.

Yes a small corp of 20 can be self sufficient if they work at it, but two men producing for a corp of 50 can be self sufficient with the right tech base and access to epriton.


Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Firstly, pretty much anything can be bought with NIC, so NIC is definitely powerful.

Secondly, self-sufficient corps who do never interact with the market will always suffer from low efficiency. That is not saying they can't do a lot of stuff, but they could always do even more stuff if they leveraged what they had more.

About effing time. I thought I was alone realizing that NIC is far from useless. NIC will be useless the day there is absolutely nothing on the market, ever.

DEV Calvin wrote:

There are some very good points listed in here and we agree that some changes would be useful. Our main concern is the accumulator instability of the Mesmer and the Seth with the native weapons mainly for PvE applications and the versatility of the shield Gropho at both short and long ranges. Please note here, that the ERP armor as an option was not discussed and is a very good option for these mechs. The inconsistency of the bonuses through the mech lines is also hurting the anal retentive parts of our personalities.

So here is a change proposition package, please discuss:

Seth:

  • Shield absorption -» 5% armor resist / lvl

  • Armor amount decrease to compensate the resist bonus

  • ~15% medium laser accumulator usage decrease

  • Base speed increase to 39.6

Gropho:

  • Shield absorption bonus -» 5% accumulator recharge, in line with other Pelistal

  • Accumulator capacity decrese to compensate for the recharge bonus

Mesmer:

  • Falloff bonus -» -5% magnetic weapon accu usage/lvl

  • Base speed increase to 44.8

Yagel, Arbalest, Kain:

  • Falloff bonus -» -5% magnetic weapon accu usage/lvl

All turret robots:

  • Increase of firing height to get better line of sight

Just a slightly modified suggestion in case people end up preffering this :

Seth :
-Change shield bonus to 5% resists/level
-Increase base speed slightly (your value of 39.4 seems fine, definately not more)
-Reduce AP usage for all medium lasers by 20%

Gropho :
-Change shield bonus to 5% AP recharge if most Gropho pilots prefer this, if not leave the shield bonus.
-Increase medium ballistic and compact missile damage by about 5%.
-Increase COMPACT missile range slightly.

Mesmer :
-Change 5% falloff bonus to 10% falloff bonus. Afterall, falloff is definately not as useful as a same amount of optimal so 10% would be fair. Should carry over to all Nuimqol.
-Increase falloff on all magnetic weapons by about 50%
-Decrease AP use on medium magnetic weapons by 10%
-Increase base speed to 44.8 as you suggested.

All turrets :
-Increase firing height.

All firearms :
-Increase AP usage SIGNIFICANTLY! Leaving them as they are currently makes it hard to balance any turret bot in regard to their accumulator and their repair-tank, due to the huge contrast in AP usage between firearms and the other 2 turret types. Their AP usage should be close to that of magnetic weapons (only slightly lower).

Note that the changes to medium magnetics might make the already-powerful Kain slightly too powerful. Perhaps reducing its speed VERY slightly would compensate.

Also with my suggested changes I think the Gropho would not need a nerf (heavy mechs in general really don't need any nerfs in my opinion) so its shield bonus should only be changed if the current Gropho pilots think it would be preferable.

Keep in mind I am just brainstorming, modifications and criticism is welcome.

754

33

(2 replies, posted in General discussion)

I think he's reffering to me letting a GM know he was not disappearing despite being offline for over 2 hours, between Davisbay and Eria teleports.

I think it was GM Oley that sorted it out.

You're welcome. tongue

Jita wrote:

A reoccurring monthly subscription (without it your making people choose if they want to play every month).

This is probably more important than most would assume. +1

Jita has a good (obvious and old) point :

Is it also an exploit to have PvP tournaments between friends, or duels, involving insured bots?

Is it only an exploit if the bot that gets destroyed has no modules fitted, and if so, is it also an exploit if all he has is a syntec sensor amp? If syntec gear counts as having nothing due to their near-zero cost, what if he has a single tier 1 laser, is it still an exploit?

Is it an exploit if a noob genuinely has cheap gear to the point where he unknowingly makes a small profit from the insurance payout? Will this evildoer be banned?

If I insure a single bot then walk it into mobs, is it an exploit? If not, what if I do it with 9 bots? Still not an exploit, but 10 is considered industrial scale, what's the magic number? Does it start being an exploit when the economy is affected? How do you determine if it has been?

Also, will innocent people be compensated for all the trouble you've caused in examples like in the following quote (from this very thread)?

Herp Derp wrote:

yes, styx and all cheater should stfu because obviously they got their nic removed but not all the they have done with this exploit as stated in the eula, and they took enormous advantage over the player base over the months and still do (who can sell 800 sequer....) no doubt that without all this insta money trick they would not be the "good" pvper they are now
we know now that you are not so good, unfortunatly with all the money you still have from this exploit you will still brag for this title until the money you have accumulated will run out (eventually.....)

and all your apparent effort to help the game as now laughable because it look much more like helping to get more people in a game where you ghave the upper hand because you found how to exploit the system

The Perpetuum Team should do a counter interview on Massively (if it's not undervay already)

let see if you continue to promote the game that now it's no more your own little private farm

So I'd like to ask the dev team a few more questions.

The smart thing to do would've been not to name anyone, but since it's too late for that, perhaps naming every individual would help. You don't seem to care that half the corps in Infestation are ENTIRELY innocent and of the ones that aren't entirely so, most members are innocent aswell. Although Norhoop Alliance is not affected nearly as much by the bad press, the same could be said for them. Did you really think Herp Derp in the above quote would read your blog and then tell themselves that less than 5% of 2 corps in Infestation are "guilty"?

Also, do you deny the fact that someone could've mistaken this for an unintended yet allowed mechanic? How do you explain the fact that there were no clear rules on the matter even though it would take you all of a few minutes to let everyone know (ahead of time) that it was an exploit?

Do you realize that of all the other games I know that have an insurance mechanic similar to this (there's only one, Eve Online), ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of them consider this a legit means of converting a bot into currency?

Can you confirm that despite knowing this (let's not kid anyone, you know about Eve Online as do a huge portion of your players) you believe it fair not to specify that in this game insurance fraud is an exploit?

Didn't you think someone would eventually come from Eve Online and unknowingly use a mechanic that is very familiar to them, sincerely believing to be innocent? Which is exactly what seems to have happened.

If you can't answer these questions in a satisfactory manner, don't you think the people you punished are innocent? If so, shouldn't you do right by them and at the VERY LEAST clean their name? Are you not worried that uninvolved people (like me) and uninvolved corps (like mine) will be extremely worried about the future of this game if you cannot treat your customers fairly despite the fact that the fault is entirely yours?

EDIT : please do the same thing to my post and quote the questions one by one, then adress them. Good luck I guess. roll

DaOpa wrote:
Alexander wrote:

Old news is old.
What I want to know is if the Devs will in future just shut down services when they're abused. It was a bad response to a terrible mechanic.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Requesting Sticky for this thread. cool


They made a big error in being to "nice" and just removing nic from people who exploited to the levels listed in the first post.

Should of TERMINATED those accounts, deleted all the material gains...

All 0 people who exploited? Of those people, some were in your corporation.

I wonder why no one in Infestation is branding AXE or Norhoop Alliance as cheaters. I guess we're more mature and honest than that, oh the irony. Actually we may just not be that desperate and low.

37

(268 replies, posted in General discussion)

Dromsex wrote:

You exploited big time

This is part of the problem. Really? Are you reffering to Heckle? He didn't exploit at all. Apparently we're dealing with conspiracy theorists who think that there are no individuals in an alliance, and that it's one big collective to be guilty by association.

It was already bad enough that those who DID blow up bots for the insurance payout were not breaking any rules at all.

38

(2 replies, posted in General discussion)

So everyone heard about the whole insurance thing, but a lot of people are misinformed (possibly even me since I'm an uninvolved party) so I made a thread to explain what i know about it. Obviously the devs are trying not to look completely horrible after screwing up like this so they merge my thread with the existing insurance thread, which had an entirely different purpose (mine was an explanation, the other one is mostly a discussion).

I thought it was just overzealous forum moderation but then I noticed how full of trolling the other thread is. If the devs care about having 2 topics roughly about the same subject, why do they not care about mass trolling and unproductive posts?

It seems to me like the only reason they would do this is to remove attention from my explanation of the events, probably because it exposes some flaws in the devs' way of handling the whole mess.

If you're curious what my thread (well it's just a post hidden on the 6th page of another thread now) was about, here's a quote :

Drahkar wrote:

Before I go into explaining the extreme yet overlooked difference between what I call insurance FRAUD and what I call the insurance EXPLOIT, I will list a few facts that are relevant to me and my thread :

Fact 1.
I play Drahkar and Brawn, I never participated in neither the fraud nor the exploit, and neither did my corporation. I'm looking at the problem as a third party who knows some people who were involved.

Fact 2.
A significant number of people who play this game also play or have played the very similar game Eve Online. Eve Online has a nearly identical insurance system which is why this is relevant.

Fact 3.
In the previously mentionned Eve Online, insuring a ship (equivalent of a bot in Perpetuum) and then blowing it up to receive the insurance payout is where the term Insurance FRAUD originated. It is NOT against the rules in Eve Online as it is a self balancing system. It is self balancing because the payout is usually slightly lower than the mineral cost of the ship but when the mineral cost goes down, people commit insurance FRAUD for a while until the mineral prices go up again and insurance FRAUD becomes unprofitable again. The profit made from this activity in Eve Online can be considered insignificant compared to the game's entire economy.

Fact 4.
People coming from Eve Online (and many of those who don't) cannot GUESS that insurance FRAUD is against the rules here. They are in fact very likely to assume that it is NOT. Just like they would be likely to assume that offering to triple someone's NIC and then breaking their promise is ALLOWED unless the opposite is mentionned in the rules somewhere.

Now that everyone is aware of these facts, let's look at the immense yet overlooked difference between Perpetuum's insurance FRAUD and Perpetuum's insurance EXPLOIT.

The Insurance FRAUD

Insurance FRAUD as mentionned above in the facts section has been going on for a while in Perpetuum. It involves either building or buying a bot, both of which cost significant time and/or NIC, insuring it for between 20 and 30% of the insurance's payout value, and then intentionally blowing it up to receive the insurance payout. This practice was and is still genuinely thought of by many honest (probably ex-Eve) players as a legitimate means of getting NIC in exchange for a bot. This means is chosen by some because of its self reliance (you don't need to find a buyer for the bot), for the extra profit (depending on the economy, it can sometimes be more profitable than selling the bot) and surely many other logical reasons (perhaps because blowing up a bot removes it from the market, while selling it could put it in the hands of an opponent).

The Insurance EXPLOIT (which may never have happened)

My knowledge of Perpetuum's insurance mechanics is very limited because I only used it to reduce my losses when dying in PvP, never making an actual profit from it since all my bots were obviously fitted with modules. What I have heard of after the punitive actions is that A SMALL PORTION of the insurance FRAUDers were also using an EXPLOIT to increase their insurance payout. By selling a bot (for example a Kain) back and forth to eachother for a ridiculously high price (for example 100 millions NIC), they would influence the game's insurance system into thinking that the average price that the bot was being sold for was much higher than it really is. This EXPLOIT increased the insurance payout and allowed people to make an much larger UNINTENDED profit from the otherwise legit insurance FRAUD. Note that I'm not sure if the EXPLOIT ever even happened, although it was most likely attempted, but this is the only type of activity that I see here that I think would deserve punitive action.

Hopefully many people will read this or already understand the difference between the two. The Devs have done a very poor job explaining these things and also a very poor job at punishing some innocent people (even some who were involved in NEITHER the fraud nor the exploit).

Sadly, I'm certain that some people with hidden agendas will continue spreading lies about how their opponents in a game are all dishonest cheaters, as if the developpers here haven't made a mistake about the way they handled this, and as if Infestation (I mention it because I see Infestation being targetted by the mob, despite the majority of us being entirely innocent) is one big borg collective where if one is guilty, everyone else is aswell.

By the way devs, if it's unclear to you that my thread was an explanation which people could then discuss, and not a discussion in and of itself, could you please move my original thread to the guide section instead and call it "Guide on understanding the insurance case"? Then it would be clear that they are nowhere near duplicate topics.

39

(268 replies, posted in General discussion)

Hidden Carrot wrote:

Isn't using game mechanics in ways they aren't ment for exploits? I don't care who did it. When i think "insurance", I don't mean "easy way to get money" but "stuff that helps me get back on my feet".

I agree that the insurance payout should be dynamic, but based on something different that average price. OR use average price but only to a certain point i.e. : cap sequer insurance at 1mil.

/edit 1600 sequers on the market? Coincidence?

Drahkar wrote:

Fact 2.
A significant number of people who play this game also play or have played the very similar game Eve Online. Eve Online has a nearly identical insurance system which is why this is relevant.

Fact 3.
In the previously mentionned Eve Online, insuring a ship (equivalent of a bot in Perpetuum) and then blowing it up to receive the insurance payout is where the term Insurance FRAUD originated. It is NOT against the rules in Eve Online as it is a self balancing system. It is self balancing because the payout is usually slightly lower than the mineral cost of the ship but when the mineral cost goes down, people commit insurance FRAUD for a while until the mineral prices go up again and insurance FRAUD becomes unprofitable again. The profit made from this activity in Eve Online can be considered insignificant compared to the game's entire economy.

Fact 4.
People coming from Eve Online (and many of those who don't) cannot GUESS that insurance FRAUD is against the rules here. They are in fact very likely to assume that it is NOT. Just like they would be likely to assume that offering to triple someone's NIC and then breaking their promise is ALLOWED unless the opposite is mentionned in the rules somewhere.

You can't expect people to guess that something they've seen as normal and legitimate for years is considered an exploit here. That's like making an MMO where you can kill people but it's against the rules, then expecting people from every other MMO to be aware of it even though it's not written anywhere. You're supposed to tell people what the rules are.

Insurance fraud is illegal in real life but so is shooting at someone to take their loot, so real life is not a valid reference. Eve Online is the obvious one, with both games being extremely similar including their insurance systems. No surprise that someone coming from a game where the EXACT same mechanic is NOT considered an exploit would assume as much here unless the rules were actually written. Pretending that it was obvious is pathetic.

You can keep repeating the same lines but that would just show that you did not read my original post (or ignored it) because it contains information that makes your conclusion invalid.

40

(268 replies, posted in General discussion)

GLiMPSE wrote:

Wouldn't most of the money being gained be lost in trade fee's? I guess if you were going to do this on a massive scale to get the price high and then blow them all up... but the pricing is done on an average over 2 weeks i believe?

As long as the transaction fee's are raping enough and the average price is long enough I don't see the issue really. But i haven't really thought this out and I need more coffee.. Off to the kitchen.

I'm speaking to people about it and some say the exploit part did not even happen, and was perhaps only attempted (without success). I still wanted to clarify a few facts and explain why a lot of honest players are discouraged by the unprofessional manner the devs went about this. Anyone who came from Eve (no one can deny there are a lot) will obviously think the insurance FRAUD part is not even against the rules.

41

(268 replies, posted in General discussion)

Before I go into explaining the extreme yet overlooked difference between what I call insurance FRAUD and what I call the insurance EXPLOIT, I will list a few facts that are relevant to me and my thread :

Fact 1.
I play Drahkar and Brawn, I never participated in neither the fraud nor the exploit, and neither did my corporation. I'm looking at the problem as a third party who knows some people who were involved.

Fact 2.
A significant number of people who play this game also play or have played the very similar game Eve Online. Eve Online has a nearly identical insurance system which is why this is relevant.

Fact 3.
In the previously mentionned Eve Online, insuring a ship (equivalent of a bot in Perpetuum) and then blowing it up to receive the insurance payout is where the term Insurance FRAUD originated. It is NOT against the rules in Eve Online as it is a self balancing system. It is self balancing because the payout is usually slightly lower than the mineral cost of the ship but when the mineral cost goes down, people commit insurance FRAUD for a while until the mineral prices go up again and insurance FRAUD becomes unprofitable again. The profit made from this activity in Eve Online can be considered insignificant compared to the game's entire economy.

Fact 4.
People coming from Eve Online (and many of those who don't) cannot GUESS that insurance FRAUD is against the rules here. They are in fact very likely to assume that it is NOT. Just like they would be likely to assume that offering to triple someone's NIC and then breaking their promise is ALLOWED unless the opposite is mentionned in the rules somewhere.

Now that everyone is aware of these facts, let's look at the immense yet overlooked difference between Perpetuum's insurance FRAUD and Perpetuum's insurance EXPLOIT.

The Insurance FRAUD

Insurance FRAUD as mentionned above in the facts section has been going on for a while in Perpetuum. It involves either building or buying a bot, both of which cost significant time and/or NIC, insuring it for between 20 and 30% of the insurance's payout value, and then intentionally blowing it up to receive the insurance payout. This practice was and is still genuinely thought of by many honest (probably ex-Eve) players as a legitimate means of getting NIC in exchange for a bot. This means is chosen by some because of its self reliance (you don't need to find a buyer for the bot), for the extra profit (depending on the economy, it can sometimes be more profitable than selling the bot) and surely many other logical reasons (perhaps because blowing up a bot removes it from the market, while selling it could put it in the hands of an opponent).

The Insurance EXPLOIT (which may never have happened)

My knowledge of Perpetuum's insurance mechanics is very limited because I only used it to reduce my losses when dying in PvP, never making an actual profit from it since all my bots were obviously fitted with modules. What I have heard of after the punitive actions is that A SMALL PORTION of the insurance FRAUDers were also using an EXPLOIT to increase their insurance payout. By selling a bot (for example a Kain) back and forth to eachother for a ridiculously high price (for example 100 millions NIC), they would influence the game's insurance system into thinking that the average price that the bot was being sold for was much higher than it really is. This EXPLOIT increased the insurance payout and allowed people to make an much larger UNINTENDED profit from the otherwise legit insurance FRAUD. Note that I'm not sure if the EXPLOIT ever even happened, although it was most likely attempted, but this is the only type of activity that I see here that I think would deserve punitive action.

Hopefully many people will read this or already understand the difference between the two. The Devs have done a very poor job explaining these things and also a very poor job at punishing some innocent people (even some who were involved in NEITHER the fraud nor the exploit).

Sadly, I'm certain that some people with hidden agendas will continue spreading lies about how their opponents in a game are all dishonest cheaters, as if the developpers here haven't made a mistake about the way they handled this, and as if Infestation (I mention it because I see Infestation being targetted by the mob, despite the majority of us being entirely innocent) is one big borg collective where if one is guilty, everyone else is aswell.

Troiars are OP. Oh and twilight sucks.

Nerf troiars and sparkly stuff.

43

(42 replies, posted in Recruitment forum)

HereticZero wrote:

Thanks Coyote, all made possible by being part of a good alliance.  smile

Here's the video I made of the initial fight.  My first attempt at making a video mind you.  tongue

Moyar Intrusion Event

First thing in the video is my being primaried in my Baph, haha. That's what I get for afking on Sehvoski 2 for hours every day? tongue

Good fight!