1 Topic by Lupus Aurelius (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-07-07 19:11:55)

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Topic: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

For awhile now I have seen discussion of the inadequacies of the Seth and Mesmer for large scale / intrusion pvp engagements, and a lot of what I have seen is opinion.  Due to this, I decided to do the math ( and tbh, I am not versed in the mysteries of Hungarian Mathematics)

For the purpose of this analysis, I have used the following skill levels for my calculation:

  • Skill    B/Lvl    level    bonus total
    Advanced robotics    8       
    Navigation    3.00%    10    30.00%
    Data processing    3.00%    9    27.00%
    Reactor expansion    3.00%    9    27.00%
    Accumulator expansion    3.00%    7    21.00%
    Energy management    3.00%    7    21.00%
    Advanced optics    3.00%    8    24.00%
    General firing    1.00%    8    8.00%
    Rapid-firing    3.00%    8    24.00%
    Advanced ballistics    3.00%    8    24.00%
    Missile launch    1.00%    8    8.00%
    Complex missle Launch    3.00%    8    24.00%
    Target analysis    1.00%    6    6.00%
    Critical hit    1.00%    6    6.00%
    Precision firing    3.00%    9    27.00%
    Seismics    3.00%    9    27.00%
    Improved falloff    3.00%    6    18.00%
    Sharpshooting    3.00%    9    27.00%
    Propellant mixing    3.00%    9    27.00%
    Economical armor usage    3.00%    8    24.00%
    Economical shield usage    3.00%    8    24.00%
    Economical weapon usage    3.00%    8    24.00%
    Optimized armor usage    3.00%    8    24.00%
    Optimized engineering    3.00%    8    24.00%
    Optimized shield usage    3.00%    8    24.00%
    Optimized weapon usage    3.00%    8    24.00%

Based on the above, we see the following:

Seth:               
Accumulator capacity        5747.50       
Accumulator recharge time    561.60        (10.23 AP recharged/sec )
CPU performance        400.05       
Reactor performance        1746.25       
Top speed            46.80       
Mass            30450   

With 6 T4 HCL lasers:
Accumulator consumption    51.47 AP/sec
Cycle time            4.08 sec           
Optimal range        514.5 m   
Falloff            118 m   
Crypto        134.59 DPS Thermal ( reload not part of calc )

Note: most significant item that stands out here is the AP usage and recharge, with an AP usage that is 5X GREATER than the AP recharge of all 6 weapons running.
The second item is the speed, the Seth is the slowest of all the heavy mechs.  If you look at all the other bots, you’ll see that everything else is Nuimqol is faster than Thelodica is faster than Pelistal. 

Combine that with the fact that the Gropho has a longer optimal range than the Seth, even after the medium ballistic missile range adjustment of 06/17/2011, even though Thelodica is suppose to be the sniper or long range faction, and that terrain has significant less effect on missiles than lasers, the Seth is unable to close to it’s optimal range, nor is it able to retreat outside the Gropho’s optimal range.


Mesmer                   
Accumulator capacity        4991.25
Accumulator recharge time    561.60        (8.89 AP recharged/sec)
CPU performance        463.55       
Reactor performance        1365.25       
Top speed            56.16       
Mass            28050               
   
With 6 T4 Medium EM Guns:                           
Accumulator consumption    35.29 AP / sec   
Cycle time            6.8               
Damage            348%                   
Falloff            94.8 m                       
Optimal range        393.7 m       
Medium UDC        159.67 DPS Kinetic ( reload not part of calc )

Note: most significant item that stands out here is the AP usage and recharge, with an AP usage that is 3.96X GREATER than the AP recharge of all 6 weapons running.

The second item is is that there is no long range ammo for EM guns, such as Heat IX and Crypto, only short range damage bonus ammo, that has a 50% reduction in range,  Whereas this greatly increases the damage output of the Mesmer, it reduces the optimal to under 200m.  This effectively leaves the role of the Mesmer as a point defense, with sufficient speed to move out of other heavy mech ranges, but not enough speed to stay out of Artemis and Tyrannos optimal ranges. 

However, it does have a base 150pts of seismic resist, which helps to offset the Gropho’s higher optimal range, but is extremely weak to thermal, thus making it extremely vulnerable to Thelodica.


Gropho:           
Accumulator capacity        3932.50
Accumulator recharge time    561.60        (7.00 AP recharged/sec)
CPU performance        482.60
Reactor performance        1301.75
Top speed            52.00
Mass            31650   

With 6 T4 launchers:
Accumulator consumption    1.429 AP/sec   
Cycle time            7.14 sec               
Optimal range        589.05    m           
Heat IX Ballistic        81.17647059 DPS Seismic ( reload not part of calc )

Note: The most significant item that stands out here is the AP usage and recharge, with a recharge rate approx 4.89X GREATER than the AP usage of all 6 weapons running.  This is unique to the 3 heavy mechs, in that the Gropho is the ONLY heavy mech that has a recharge rate in excess of the energy expended running weapons. 

The second item is the optimal range, even after the 10% reduction in range that medium ballistic missiles received on 06/17/2011, the Gropho still has the longest optimal range of any heavy mech, and is also faster than the Seth by almost 6 kph.

Now lets look at the bonuses for these heavy mechs:

Seth:
Critical hit chance            1.00%    x 8 = 8.00%
Medium laser damage            5.00%    x 8 = 40.00%
Shield absorption            5.00%    x 8 = 40.00%    

Mesmer:
Turret falloff            5.00% x 8 = 40.00%
Medium magnetic weapon damage    5.00% x 8 = 40.00%
Armor repair amount            5.00% x 8 = 40.00%

Gropho:
Locking time            5.00% x 8 = 40.00%
Medium missile damage        5.00% x 8 = 40.00%
Shield absorption            5.00% x 8 = 40.00%

Each heavy mech receives the same bonus for damage.

Critical hit ( Seth), turret falloff (Mesmer), and locking time (Gropho) are relatively innocuous bonuses that have a minimal effective impact on the heavy mechs performance.

Now for the defensive bonuses, and this is where logic breaks down completely.  The Gropho’s weapon 1.43AP sec usage, with a recharge of 7.00 AP/sec, leaves the Gropho with a recharge of 5.57AP/sec to apply to shield damage absorption, so the low AP usage of missile launches makes sense, since there is sufficient recharge to handle damage applied to shields.

But what the hell is going on with the Seth and the Mesmer?!?!? 

The Seth ALSO gets a shield absorption bonus, but is has a weapon 51.47 AP/sec usage with a recharge of  8.89 AP / sec!  Granted, when shields are up, weapon fire ceases, but until those shields go up, you are burning AP faster than the US government spends money it does not have.  I have not gone to the extent of doing the math on fitting a shield Seth, but I have tried to fit one, and it is nigh onto impossible to do it, CPU being mostly the issue, and you will never be AP stable, no matter how high your skills, nor be able to fit recharges enough to handle the AP burn.  The alternative is to fit firearms, WHICH REDUCES the Seth’s range even more.

Even without using a shield, in order to maintain near constant weapon fire, you have to remote energy transfer the Seth to keep it effective, which means one more person less per Seth, maybe per 2 or 3 Seths, that can be in a combat mech in your squad. .  And, finally, no other Thelodica bot/mech has any shield bonus or usage, Thelodica is suppose to be armor, so you have to now spend EP on skills that are not consistant with the skill tree of a thelodica specialist.

The Mesmer, however, gets a armor repair amount bonus, but with an AP usage for it’s guns of 32.29AP / sec, and a recharge of  8.89AP / sec, you cannot run reps and guns together for long, so it’s ability to push in and handle damage to apply it’s high DPS is severely limited, without remote reps being applied, which means, again, that you have to have a dedicated remote rep to each Mesmer, maybe one for every 2 Mesmers, but that remote rep bot has to be close enough to actually repair the Mesmer, putting it right in the middle of the mess.  The speed offsets this a bit, but Artemis, Tyrannos, Seths, and Grophos’ will still have a field day.

Possible Solutions:

In order to balance things a bit, these are my recommendations:

-Change the Seth’s defense bonuses to resist bonuses.  All other mechs and bots for Thelodica have either a resist bonus, or an AP recharge bonus.

-Decrease the Gropho’s speed, or increase the Seth and Mesmer’s speeds, with the Gropho being the slowest.

-Reduce the range further on Grophos.  Thelodica, as the “sniper” or long range specialists, should have the longest base ranges

-Increase the Seth and Mesmer’s AP recharge, or reduce the AP consumption, and increase the Gropho’s AP consumption, or reduce it’s recharge so it is comparable to AP usage of the Mesmer and Seth

Edit: I did not factor in Line of Sight issues in this analysis, but as a footnote, I'd like to point out, that the longer the range, the higher the probablity of something blocking LOS on lasers, vs. the Gropho, which does not have that issue to anywhere near the same effect.  Due to this, the actual delivered DPS of missiles is probably higher than lasers, even though lasers have a higher inate DPS.

Coming Soon  - Analysis and Criticism of Long Range Demobs as Unbalanced and Favoring Blob Warfare. ( due to Absolute Logical Fail)

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!
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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Please correct the tabbing and add section headings. I can't see the math for the jumble.

3 Reply by Lemon (edited by Lemon 2011-07-07 19:02:01)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Lupus i respect the time and effort put in to your argument and post. Expect a Response of the same caliber from me.

Since there is a large amount of logical effort i would like to vote to avoid senseless posts with no back and involving any form of QQ.

I still am behind a Player panel to come up with a agreed upon list of thoughts/ideas on Balance and look forward to the test server.

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"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
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4 Reply by Neoxx (edited by Neoxx 2011-07-07 19:39:54)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

A player panel?  In this small of a community, all that would achieve is giving more power to those who are already outspoken.  That and its just a "RESPECT MY OPINION!!" group.

I have nothing significant to add to the balance discussion.

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Out of curiosity, how would implementing any of these solutions revolving around readjusting speeds / ranges result in anything but the Seth becoming FOTM heavy mech?

From what I understood, it was always the case of the following division:
- Blue bots = close-range high-spike DPS
- Yellow bots = medium-range medium-consistent DPS
- Green bots = long-range low-consistent DPS

Since when was Thelodica intended to have the longest possible range?

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6 Reply by Lupus Aurelius (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-07-07 20:15:01)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Lemon wrote:

...Since there is a large amount of logical effort i would like to vote to avoid senseless posts with no back and involving any form of QQ...

Syndic, please discuss the data and the analysis, please check the trolling at the door..

The issue here is how UNBALANCED the Gropho is compared to the Seth and Mesmer, and their roles in PVP / Incursions.

GMs / DEVs / Moderator's. please make sure that all off topic, trolling, and QQ'ing is removed from this thread

Edit: From what I understood, it was always the case of the following division:
- Blue bots = close-range high-spike DPS
- Green bots = Medium range consistent DPS
- Yellow bots = Long range medium-consistent DPS

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

7 Reply by Lemon (edited by Lemon 2011-07-07 20:34:17)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

I will be honest and say any buffs or incorrect changes to a Seth with send it so far threw the roof of being OP it would be disgusting.

I will Break This down in to 4 parts: Meta Play, Speed, Bot Wepons, Bot Bonus

Meta
The math you have is very concreete and shows that at the current fit/situation the level of balance, What happens if we then add in more EP or adjust fittings, maybe even add in the use of outside bots as buffers. How does this scale across the mech's do some scale better with buffers than others and do some reach prime at different levels of EP. What about different Fits and roles they can play?

The issue is that lupus if you are trying to run around in a seth the mechs ability's are capped fairly low for self fits and no buffers. Especially next to a mesmer, but the same can be said for a gropho being in the same boat as a seth with out buffer bots.

If we expand out to allow buffer bots you can see the mesmer gains very little in efficiency  the gropho gains a little edge but a seth will go threw the roof in performance.

So do we balance around the Solo, Simple play or around higher skilled players with more involved tactics/fits.

Speed:

Its relative to the objective. If there is no reason to stay the faster bots can disengage and save loss's if you have something or are taking something speed is irrelevant for the ways it is viewed now.

Bot Wepons

Again this is all about fittings, what are you fitting for? i feel like your comparing everything to the gropho builds you ran in intrusions, Which  a Mesmer is not designed for and given the correct situation and seth can perform better. As a tank i would look outside the box and opt for auto-cannons for less use of AP to allow more for tanking. From my experience i have quiet a few effect HCL Fits and Auto cannon fits however do not have effective LCL fits.

Bot Bonus
A seth with the resist bonus's would be absurdly broken and expect me to never die if such change is implemented until either a Dev kills me or its changed. With such a large Accum pool and wide slots and high levels of EP the tank you could squeeze in to a Seth would be astronomical. The only reason it doesn't tank as well now is a ictus can counter it.

TL;DR I would look more at how effective these bots become with Full fits for specific jobs with gangs and Buffer bots. The "best bot" changes with all of these variable very quickly. We cant balance based off of hard base math in one case. As with anything Multiple cases are needed

Edit: oh we talking Intrusions, Which outpost depends on which bot is King.

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"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

8 Reply by Syndic (edited by Syndic 2011-07-07 20:41:36)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
Lemon wrote:

...Since there is a large amount of logical effort i would like to vote to avoid senseless posts with no back and involving any form of QQ...

Syndic, please discuss the data and the analysis, please check the trolling at the door..

The issue here is how UNBALANCED the Gropho is compared to the Seth and Mesmer, and their roles in PVP / Incursions.

GMs / DEVs / Moderator's. please make sure that all off topic, trolling, and QQ'ing is removed from this thread

Edit: From what I understood, it was always the case of the following division:
- Blue bots = close-range high-spike DPS
- Green bots = Medium range consistent DPS
- Yellow bots = Long range medium-consistent DPS

Why are you talking to me and quoting Lemon? smile

If Green bots have medium range and medium consistent DPS, and yellow bots have long range and medium consistent DPS; what is the point of the green bot? Being Ictus pilots? It doesn't logically compute in any way, shape or form.

Heavy mechs as a whole are not viable in roams due to low speed compared to Mechs, and speed-fitting them is a waste of time considering how much Epriton they & their fittings cost.

Seth being faster then gropho & having longer range then Gropho = useless Gropho. Can't have it all, same as FOTM assaults with imba stealth and imba speed.

EDIT: The solution is to re-tweak Seth speed to be more in line with the Gropho, before getting all knee-jerk and adjusting robot bonuses, weapon ranges, etc. Such premature balancing measures work down the line as well, so boosting Laser range = Artemis buff = Kains/Mesmers suffer.

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9 Reply by Lupus Aurelius (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-07-07 21:25:43)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Lemon wrote:

Meta
The math you have is very concreete and shows that at the current fit/situation the level of balance, What happens if we then add in more EP or adjust fittings, maybe even add in the use of outside bots as buffers. How does this scale across the mech's do some scale better with buffers than others and do some reach prime at different levels of EP. What about different Fits and roles they can play?

The issue is that lupus if you are trying to run around in a seth the mechs ability's are capped fairly low for self fits and no buffers. Especially next to a mesmer, but the same can be said for a gropho being in the same boat as a seth with out buffer bots.

If we expand out to allow buffer bots you can see the mesmer gains very little in efficiency  the gropho gains a little edge but a seth will go threw the roof in performance.

So do we balance around the Solo, Simple play or around higher skilled players with more involved tactics/fits..

No, the same cannot be said about the Gropho - the innate AP recharge to weapon usage AP negates that argument completely, with a sufficient CPU to fit it's native weapon and also fit to it's defense bonus, shields.

Lemon wrote:

Speed:
Its relative to the objective. If there is no reason to stay the faster bots can disengage and save loss's if you have something or are taking something speed is irrelevant for the ways it is viewed now...

Read Sun Tzu - speed is ALWAYS key in PVP. If a Mech has a shorter range and a slower speed, it will in the majority of cases will always be unable to apply DPS

Lemon wrote:

Bot Wepons
Again this is all about fittings, what are you fitting for? i feel like your comparing everything to the gropho builds you ran in intrusions, Which  a Mesmer is not designed for and given the correct situation and seth can perform better. As a tank i would look outside the box and opt for auto-cannons for less use of AP to allow more for tanking. From my experience i have quiet a few effect HCL Fits and Auto cannon fits however do not have effective LCL fits...

And lose the innate damage bonus of the mech, in this case, damage, which in the Seth's case is based on lasers, and also even more loss of range to the Gropho, with the inablity to close the gap, unlike the Mesmer, which has the speed o do so.

Lemon wrote:

Bot Bonus
A seth with the resist bonus's would be absurdly broken and expect me to never die if such change is implemented until either a Dev kills me or its changed. With such a large Accum pool and wide slots and high levels of EP the tank you could squeeze in to a Seth would be astronomical. The only reason it doesn't tank as well now is a ictus can counter it. ..

Again, inaccurate. Resist bonus, or AP recharge bonus, would be consistent with all the other Thelodica bonuses, which the shield bonus is not.  Also, A resist bonus would be consistent with the armor bias of Thelodica bots, and work towards a buffer tank setup, which would reduce some of the AP drain, and again be consistent with faction bonuses - Nuimqol rep tanks, Pelistal shield tanks, and Thelodica resist buffer tanks.

Also, you are forgetting that that "large AP pool" recharges at 10.23 AP/sec, while the 6 weapons burn 51.47 AP/sec, or in other words, the Seth burns AP 5Xs faster than it recharges.

The Gropho, in comparison, with a recharge rate approx 4.89X GREATER than the AP usage of all 6 weapons running.  This is unique to the 3 heavy mechs, in that the Gropho is the ONLY heavy mech that has a recharge rate in excess of the energy expended running weapons.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

10 Reply by Lupus Aurelius (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-07-07 21:23:59)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Syndic wrote:

EDIT: The solution is to re-tweak Seth speed to be more in line with the Gropho, before getting all knee-jerk and adjusting robot bonuses, weapon ranges, etc. Such premature balancing measures work down the line as well, so boosting Laser range = Artemis buff = Kains/Mesmers suffer.

Which still does not address the AP issue, the Seth recharges at 10.23 AP/sec, while the 6 weapons burn 51.47 AP/sec, or in other words, the Seth burns AP 5Xs faster than it recharges. The Mesmer with an AP usage that is 3.96X GREATER than the AP recharge of all 6 weapons running.The Gropho, in comparison, with a recharge rate approx 4.89X GREATER than the AP usage of all 6 weapons running.  This is unique to the 3 heavy mechs, in that the Gropho is the ONLY heavy mech that has a recharge rate in excess of the energy expended running weapons.

There is no "knee jerk reaction going on here, math is math, data is data, and it speaks for itself.  ATM, the Gropho has the longest range, the most consistant application of DPS of all the heavies, and can run it's weapon systems 100% of the time, the only heavy mech that can do so.  This is OBVIOUS to anyone that looks at the data, and is inargueable.

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11 Reply by Saha (edited by Saha 2011-07-07 21:31:29)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Syndic wrote:

EDIT: The solution is to re-tweak Seth speed to be more in line with the Gropho, before getting all knee-jerk and adjusting robot bonuses, weapon ranges, etc. Such premature balancing measures work down the line as well, so boosting Laser range = Artemis buff = Kains/Mesmers suffer.

Not quite a knee jerk to actually retweak all heavies bonuses. It's a long standing issue. Seths with shields, Mesmers with falloff bonus which magnetic weapons have pathetic one (woohoo I get 50 meters extra fall off from advanced robotics extension at 10) as well as misserable rep bonus which is completely useless since when heavys go to the party they bring remote reppers.

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Lupus, You are failing to realize a benefit to cost. With Great range and Damage comes High AP cost. With Greater range Lower Damage comes No AP cost. With Lesser Range Greater Damage average AP cost. There is  trend The only thing out of this Trend would be the speed Bonus.

Resistance Trend with Thelodica:
have you sat down and looked at the sheer numbers you can obtain for tank with that, not to mention how easily you make AP not a concern to your tank. It would be *** broken.

Gropho Rate of Fire w/ buffs is just shy of 4 seconds flat at 800m.
Seth Rate of Fire w/ Buffs 2.1 Seconds at 800m

Gropho Crits at 800m - Just shy of 200
Seth Crits at 800m- just shy of 300

The Arguement to be made is speed and number of shots, Lets look at it this way. If we eliminate the need for accumulator through the use of a battery and then we have a very deadly Gatling cannon that will out shoot and out damage anything on the field.

Sorry forgot about speed. So you cant catch them... They will never kill you because you opted to rip there heads off from 800m instead of run them down and poke them to death in a fast bot.

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Troiar/Intakt/Cameleon analysis? Ictus/Zenith/Vagabond? Tyrannos/Artemis/Kain?

14 Reply by Lupus Aurelius (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-07-07 21:55:22)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Lemon wrote:

Lupus, You are failing to realize a benefit to cost. With Great range and Damage comes High AP cost. With Greater range Lower Damage comes No AP cost. With Lesser Range Greater Damage average AP cost. There is  trend The only thing out of this Trend would be the speed Bonus.

Resistance Trend with Thelodica:
have you sat down and looked at the sheer numbers you can obtain for tank with that, not to mention how easily you make AP not a concern to your tank. It would be *** broken.

Gropho Rate of Fire w/ buffs is just shy of 4 seconds flat at 800m.
Seth Rate of Fire w/ Buffs 2.1 Seconds at 800m

Gropho Crits at 800m - Just shy of 200
Seth Crits at 800m- just shy of 300

The Arguement to be made is speed and number of shots, Lets look at it this way. If we eliminate the need for accumulator through the use of a battery and then we have a very deadly Gatling cannon that will out shoot and out damage anything on the field.

Sorry forgot about speed. So you cant catch them... They will never kill you because you opted to rip there heads off from 800m instead of run them down and poke them to death in a fast bot.

I'm not forgetting that at all - the Gropho has THE LONGEST RANGE with THE LEAST AP COST, and does MORE CONSISTENT DPS due to LOS. Meanwhile, the only heavy mech capable of approaching the range of the Gropho is significantly slower, so innately unable to apply DPS in retailiation.

Yes, I have looked at the numbers, with the current AP regen, you could not run an active tank either,, which means a buffer tank, but even with a buffer tank, you still have to have remote energy transfer to keep the Seth actively firing, due to the extremely high AP usage vs. recharge.

As far as the ranges:
Gropho:
Optimal range        589.05    m           
Heat IX Ballistic        81.17647059 DPS Seismic ( reload not part of calc )

Seth:
Optimal range        514.5 m   
Falloff            118 m   
Crypto        134.59 DPS Thermal ( reload not part of calc )

Critical hit again is only effective if DPS is delivered, all a Gropho has to do is use a slight rise in landscape to negate Seth DPS, while still be 100% effective delivering DPS.

AND AGAIN, USING FIREARMS REMOVES THE WEAPON BONUS THE SETH HAS, WITH SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION OF RANGE< WITH THE SETH BEING STILL SLOWER THAN THE GROPHO.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

15 Reply by Saha (edited by Saha 2011-07-07 23:54:11)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Elirian wrote:

Troiar/Intakt/Cameleon analysis? Ictus/Zenith/Vagabond? Tyrannos/Artemis/Kain?

The only well working balance is imho between ewar bots and ewar mechs (well, partially not true after brainy guy Alf introduced long range demobs). Well working balance as in - those bots and mechs are working quite differently from each other and all of them are needed. While with assaults, mechs and heavy mechs there is a great issue of disbalance. Waspish, Kain, Grohp. The rest are just "well if you can't bring one of those 3, I guess your robot/mech will do, but you're quite useless".

EDIT: Ohh and hi completely useless faction ammo magnedart for numiquol. 35 neters optimal on arbalest of 100 meters optimal on kain/mesmer? How do you like explosion damage?

16 Reply by Annihilator (edited by Annihilator 2011-07-08 00:02:30)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

lupus, stop picking on the robot bonus when you compare med HCL laser with medium Autocannons... the autocannons having about 4-6% less DPS on a lvl10 advanced robotics seth (forgot the factional cycletime bonus in earlier calculations)

thats insignificant if you its shooting at missile bots that have their highest resist on themal anyway...

and syndic: lasers are really ment to have the highest range of all weapons

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

17 Reply by Lupus Aurelius (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-07-08 00:12:02)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Annihilator wrote:

lupus, stop picking on the robot bonus when you compare med HCL laser with medium Autocannons... the autocannons having about 4-6% less DPS on a lvl10 advanced robotics seth (forgot the factional cycletime bonus in earlier calculations)

thats insignificant if you its shooting at missile bots that have their highest resist on themal anyway...

and syndic: lasers are really ment to have the highest range of all weapons


It not a matter of picking, it's a matter of suggesting using a weapon that does not utilize the innate bonus of the mech, with reduced range, on the slowest heavy mech in the game, as a "fix".  Whereas the Gropho is able to utilise all of it's bonuses, while at the same time being able to sustain fire indefinately, with the longest range, and being able to maintain that range.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!
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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Edit: Please keep emotions at bay. - DEV Calvin

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

So you want all bots to be the same? Shall we all drive VW bugs too?
Looks like you are the one QQ over minor differences. if you are unhappy in your current mech, drive a different one instead of trying to get nerfs implemented to fit your idea of whats right.

It looks like you spend way too much time worrying someone else has any advantage and you want everyone to be the same. (balance) is a fantasy. If I was your boss on earth I'd fire you so fast for wasting company time! Get to work pulling resources from the ground and send it on.. that's your job! Leave the designs to the designers, it's not your task.

20 Reply by Neoxx (edited by Neoxx 2011-07-08 00:36:01)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Try repping in a gropho big_smile

Also, this thread relies completely on each race being completely equal, and not the rock paper scissors we should lean toward.  If a seth can ever beat a gropho 1v1 without some insane counter-fit designed for it, then that's imba.  I get the feeling that you want things balanced in a way that gives everyone a shot at killing anyone, and throw the tactics of fittings and faction resists out the window.

I think pelistal needs the range to best counter the closing speed of nuimqol.  We barely scratch them, but maybe if you find a way to keep range you can do some damage. But even if you do damage.... lolreps.

Btw, isn't pelistal the only race that has nearly no chanve 1cv1 to kill theit arch faction?  Id be amazed to see a gropho out dps kain/mesmer that has a repper at all.  At least seth has assurance that a gropho can't rep *** on its own without losing range advantage.  Shield maybe, but the recharge is still pretty miserable.

->You just lost The Game<-

21 Reply by Saha (edited by Saha 2011-07-08 00:46:45)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Neoxx wrote:

Try repping in a gropho big_smile

Also, this thread relies completely on each race being completely equal, and not the rock paper scissors we should lean toward.  If a seth can ever beat a gropho 1v1 without some insane counter-fit designed for it, then that's imba.  I get the feeling that you want things balanced in a way that gives everyone a shot at killing anyone, and throw the tactics of fittings and faction resists out the window.

I think pelistal needs the range to best counter the closing speed of nuimqol.  We barely scratch them, but maybe if you find a way to keep range you can do some damage. But even if you do damage.... lolreps.

Btw, isn't pelistal the only race that has nearly no chanve 1cv1 to kill theit arch faction?  Id be amazed to see a gropho out dps kain/mesmer that has a repper at all.  At least seth has assurance that a gropho can't rep *** on its own without losing range advantage.  Shield maybe, but the recharge is still pretty miserable.

3-4 kph speed advangae of numiquol... Let's take mesmer being at it's standart 400 meters range and gropho being at it's standart 600 meters. 200 meters to cover until mesmer goes into range. Let's be generous and give Mesmer 5 kph advantage (which it doesn't have). 144 seconds for mesmer to actually even get into shooting range. "lol use terrain" argument doesn't work here since you are facing missiles in a mesmer. If you can't kill another heavy in 2 mins+ of free shooting time, something is wrong with that you are doing.

Obviously you can go to non standart fits of 900 meters grophos vs 600 meters mesmers (max you can get on those 2 heavies). Time to close in even larger...

Obviously you can argue that this game is not 1v1 based... But then if someone brings 10 grohos to the party, even 15 mesmers wouldn't do too good.

Is gropho OP? Imho, not. It's problem of quite a few mechs/bots being underpowered. Arbalests, Mesmers, Artemis, Seth to start with. Is waspish OP? Lol, no *** it is.

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Saha wrote:

Obviously you can argue that this game is not 1v1 based... But then if someone brings 10 grohos to the party, even 15 mesmers wouldn't do too good.

I remember you guys running away with long range fit grophos after you failed an intrusion after the respec and we had mixed party big_smile

Guys if you want a balanced game go play chess. There is not a single MMO that is balanced in the way you want to. Grophos are not the one and only choice for PVP. Nothing is. Except for a super skilled wasp. It's the small god machine wink

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23 Reply by Shaedys (edited by Shaedys 2011-07-08 10:12:14)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

Sabre906 wrote:

There's about a dozen whines from green pilots that OP conveniently left out in his disingenuous wall of text. Everyone has something to whine about for their race. If there ever comes a time when someone is actually happy with their bot, you know something is unbalanced. lol

If OP believes half of what he is sprouting, he'd have crosstrained ages ago. But since he already knew how that will turn out, he prefers to whine instead until his preferred bot from one of 3 already balanced races is renamed the God Machine. Oh wait...

Norrdec wrote:

I remember you guys running away with long range fit grophos after you failed an intrusion after the respec and we had mixed party
Guys if you want a balanced game go play chess. There is not a single MMO that is balanced in the way you want to. Grophos are not the one and only choice for PVP. Nothing is. Except for a super skilled wasp. It's the small god machine

Toku wrote:

So you want all bots to be the same? Shall we all drive VW bugs too?
Looks like you are the one QQ over minor differences. if you are unhappy in your current mech, drive a different one instead of trying to get nerfs implemented to fit your idea of whats right.
It looks like you spend way too much time worrying someone else has any advantage and you want everyone to be the same. (balance) is a fantasy. If I was your boss on earth I'd fire you so fast for wasting company time! Get to work pulling resources from the ground and send it on.. that's your job! Leave the designs to the designers, it's not your task.

If you actually believed his argument to be flawed at any point then you could address some of his actual arguments instead of attacking his persona. The posts presented make no refutation of any arguments.
Is there anything wrong with the specific arguments that he presents?
If not, then they are valid and cause for change.

24 Reply by Norrdec (edited by Norrdec 2011-07-08 10:28:27)

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

The argument that there is no Super Fit Killing everyone on sight. Gropho has a great range with correct fit, but not everyone can fit it with 3 or more RE. Just like saha said about "not talking about AC's because noobs cant have them/ it's hard to fit it" in another topic, why are we talking about those specific fits? Or if we want to talk why is everyone thinking that the gropho can kill someone on his own? Till the time you will get me a video of a single gropho killing a mesmer, mesmer killing a seth or a seth killing a gropho, each 2-3 times (so no "lucky time" debate) then there is not so much about to talk.

What is the use of AP? It's not FARMING, in PVP you don't have a continuous volley for 15 mins. You shoot, you hide, you run after.

And if anything my personal attack was to show on your own experience, that having 15 grophos doesn't mean you can run over everyone on the server.

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Re: Seth / Mesmer to Gropho Inbalance ( WARNING, wall of text / math )

I agree with OP, as telodica rider ofc; most ppl complaining about topic dont drive lasers. It a metter of each one im afraid.
-I rlly wanted someone to post a thread like this one, no meant to be all bots the same, but imo Seths have a serious issue with acc consuption, without having any significant advantage over others HM.
-On top of all the LOS issue just gets bigger with each mech, being almost impossible to find the player that wont know that a simple small field of flowers can work as shield for the lasers shoot, so long range sniper lol.
-Again, telodica sensor supresor bonus for ew´s ?¿¿?

Rlly think telodicas need a boost, atm only ppl that dont read forums or have a strong laser love choose Laser bots, the rest are waiting for new weapons to see if lasers keep broken and have to respec to into pelistal. FOOTM its as bad as Useless faction.