Re: Insurance action

You still seem not to get it - it doesnt matter what you reported, or how often - or if you could have seen this coming 2 years ago.

You used it.

127 (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-02-14 18:04:47)

Re: Insurance action

Dromsex wrote:

You still seem not to get it - it doesnt matter what you reported, or how often - or if you could have seen this coming 2 years ago.

You used it.

Because the perception was that it was an acceptable game mechanic. This perception was set forth by the Devs.

Not a big deal, it's their game -- they can do what they want.

But just so you pay attention here, I'll repeat it for you.

Because the perception was that it was an acceptable game mechanic. This perception was set forth by the Devs.

*edit* Do not spam please. - DEV Zoom

Re: Insurance action

Let's compare this to a parent child relationship -- say you're a parent and you decide that you want to have fun with your 5 year old child. They ask you what you're drinking, you say beer, they say can i have some? You, say sure... yep.. have some... they drink it. You then wait a week and then raid their piggy bank as punishment because they did something they should have known was wrong even though you the parent, the leader, the teacher of what is right or wrong told them that it was ok...but have now decided after pressure from outside forces that it is indeed... bad...

i mad

129

Re: Insurance action

blog wrote:

The vast majority of these frauds originate from the corporations Menace to Society, X-23, Mahtisoturit, BattleAxe, Not Amused and E=Mk2 but there are many more

It wasn't JUST Infestation, it was corps that had huge wallets and/or stock piled resources... because there was nothing to expend those resources on.

Re: Insurance action

Yes, you mad brother Glimpse wink

As already stated, the issue revolves around the fact that we were told that it was ok, so Infestation went ahead and did it. If you tell someone that it's fine it ceases to be an exploit that very same second.

Don't tell us that we can eat all the cookies and then change your mind a few months later.

131

Re: Insurance action

GLiMPSE wrote:

Let's compare this to a parent child relationship -- say you're a parent and you decide that you want to have fun with your 5 year old child. They ask you what you're drinking, you say beer, they say can i have some? You, say sure... yep.. have some... they drink it. You then wait a week and then raid their piggy bank as punishment because they did something they should have known was wrong even though you the parent, the leader, the teacher of what is right or wrong told them that it was ok...but have now decided after pressure from outside forces that it is indeed... bad...

i mad

Actually, its more like you give them a Sip of beer and its OK... the child later goes back and drinks your six pack, pukes all over your market, and claims its OK because you told them it was OK to drink.

I don't think the devs felt it was wrong to let players get a little extra nic back from a bot dying in combat, as it encouraged more combat. It was probably OK too build'n-bash a couple bots now and then, but when entire production runs being bashed, it was just too much for them.

This isn't just M2S, it was any corp or alliance that had the resourced to go into full build'n bash production.

And tldr; on my book, summary - reducing resources was a good first step, but there should be more reason to lose bots built into the game.

Re: Insurance action

Exactly Arga - just a little common sense was needed. Generating money out of thin air cannot work.

Those comment in gen chat yesterday - tell a very different story though - as if somebody actually believed this wasnt an exploit or that it ruined the market.

On friday a infestation guy in the german channel even announced that they would need  to "take care" of their large amount of sequers if the exploit still worked so ...

Glimpse, apart from trolling your a reasonable guy. I understand that the current outcome wasnt expected. Im surte neither the DEVs expected such big numbers, so.

Story is over.

Re: Insurance action

only FED can make money out of thin air big_smile

players: dont makes stuff that are on the grey zone

devs: put your s**t together and plan better your features

taking this action is not good making nothing is not good  hmm

To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.” – Elbert Hubbard

134 (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-02-14 19:01:10)

Re: Insurance action

Arga wrote:
GLiMPSE wrote:

Let's compare this to a parent child relationship -- say you're a parent and you decide that you want to have fun with your 5 year old child. They ask you what you're drinking, you say beer, they say can i have some? You, say sure... yep.. have some... they drink it. You then wait a week and then raid their piggy bank as punishment because they did something they should have known was wrong even though you the parent, the leader, the teacher of what is right or wrong told them that it was ok...but have now decided after pressure from outside forces that it is indeed... bad...

i mad

Actually, its more like you give them a Sip of beer and its OK... the child later goes back and drinks your six pack, pukes all over your market, and claims its OK because you told them it was OK to drink.

I don't think the devs felt it was wrong to let players get a little extra nic back from a bot dying in combat, as it encouraged more combat. It was probably OK too build'n-bash a couple bots now and then, but when entire production runs being bashed, it was just too much for them.

This isn't just M2S, it was any corp or alliance that had the resourced to go into full build'n bash production.

And tldr; on my book, summary - reducing resources was a good first step, but there should be more reason to lose bots built into the game.

So who's fault is it that they gave the child the drink and told them it was ok? Wouldn't you feel a little guilty about punishing your children in this scenario? After all, it was you, the parent, that set the expectation that this was ok.

Re: Insurance action

Bananfluga wrote:

Yes, you mad brother Glimpse wink

As already stated, the issue revolves around the fact that we were told that it was ok, so Infestation went ahead and did it. If you tell someone that it's fine it ceases to be an exploit that very same second.

Don't tell us that we can eat all the cookies and then change your mind a few months later.

lol by who...a DEV or another player tongue... An exploit is an exploit and Im sure you are all smart enough to know that lol, whether its there for a day or a month, its apprent how much stupidity can run rampant in a community.

136

Re: Insurance action

Glimpse, I know you didn't read my book post, heck I didn't even read it.

I don't have an aversion to any person or corp that actually used this method to make NIC, I do understand that the Devs needed to take that NIC out of the market also, so it was less a punishment than a correction.

Where I'm coming from is this is another example of dev's not really looking at the 'carebear' industry side of the game.

If I have a dedicated production character, but we don't need any thing produced because I can make equip and bots faster than they are blown up, should I just not log in for a couple of weeks?

Even if some corps did hold back, others would eventually do this, so in some sense getting it done and out of the way early was helpful.

I guess I would prefer that everyone use it as intended and we all would than get the benefit of a few extra NIC now and then, but I'm not so naive to think that greed would not overcome eventually.

I do think it would not have become an issue if there was SOMETHING else in the game to use bots on. Most corps understand that NIC itself is useless, so would rather have used the resources to build bots to attack/defend with than to build'n-bash.

Re: Insurance action

Arga wrote:

I do think it would not have become an issue if there was SOMETHING else in the game to use bots on. Most corps understand that NIC itself is useless, so would rather have used the resources to build bots to attack/defend with than to build'n-bash.

I take it you mean more PvE options, and a more diverse range of PvP options?

Also, I wouldn't underestimate the lure of virtual currencies. One of the major goals in the game for many people is to accumulate wealth...even if there isn't anything "real" to spend it on.

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

Re: Insurance action

Dromsex wrote:

Exactly Arga - just a little common sense was needed. Generating money out of thin air cannot work.

Actually, money is usually being generated out of thin air, in games an irl alike, as it is not some sort of natural resource, it's an abstract concept. That aside, it's not like someone pushed a button and NIC rained down from the sky into our wallets. Materials needed to be either mined or bought and hauled, the bots needed to be produced and then blown up. All of those are profoundly boring and tedious tasks so it feld pretty much like every other PvE activity in the game.

As for common sense: We had the DEVs confirm to us that it was OK to use insurance in that way. What else could we have done? Just decide to not play the game the way the DEVs themselves told us it is intended? It's not like your alliance ever decided to not blob us when they could just because it's kind of lame.

Dromsex wrote:

On friday a infestation guy in the german channel even announced that they would need  to "take care" of their large amount of sequers if the exploit still worked so ...

On friday, heh? Let me quote that just for you.

Log starting: 2212-02-09 18:44:46
[...]
[19:02:25] <Redline> andersherum: gewissen dinge zu veröffentlichen ist der beste weg dafür zu sorgen dass sie abgestellt/geändert werden
[19:03:24] <Michael J Caboose> ich frag mich warum CRM nicht auf insurance exploit reagiert hat. die tools sowas zu erkennen haben sie ja
[19:03:37] <bureaucracy> Immerhin wurde das alles getestet und behoben, sodass du heute nicht befürchten musst, beim minern auf den Alpha-Inseln auf irgendwelche komödiantischen Weisen in die Luft zu fliegen
[19:03:54] <bureaucracy> Sie brauchen keine tools, wir haben es ihnen gesagt, mehrmals
[19:04:09] <bureaucracy> Da kam nur sowas wie "Warum würdet ihr eure eigenen Bots sprengen?" zurück
[19:04:43] <bureaucracy> Irgendwann scheint es aber doch durchgedrungen zu sein, dass da was gefixt werden muss
[19:05:22] <Michael J Caboose> scheint aber nicht sehr geholfen zu haben wie ich gehört hab
[19:05:42] <Michael J Caboose> oder schönigt da einer nur seine statistik mit sequern?
[19:06:23] <bureaucracy> Ehrlich gesagt weiß ich nicht, wieviel weniger sinnvoll es jetzt geworden ist, da wir das eine Weile nicht mehr gemacht haben
[19:06:56] <Michael J Caboose> mein infostand ist... gestern
[19:07:55] <bureaucracy> Schätze dann geht es noch
[19:08:13] <bureaucracy> Müssten uns bei gelegenheit der paar hundert Sequer annehmen, die da noch rumliegen

That's the very same sequers that are up for sale at Nauwy right now. Just so you know how much we cared about all of this. Like I said, boring and tedious busywork.

Dromsex wrote:

Glimpse, apart from trolling your a reasonable guy. I understand that the current outcome wasnt expected. Im surte neither the DEVs expected such big numbers, so.

Arga and you might even have a point there, but in order for it to be true the DEVs would need to be exceptionally naive. If EvE has shown us anything, then it's that everything that can conceivably be done on a ridiculously large scale will be done like that if there is any benefit to be gained. Like CCP didn't ever expect to have more than about 5 Titans in the game because it's so much effort to get those. Now they are everywhere.
If you get told that there is something exploitable in your game and you respond to it by stating that it's ok to do so because you secretly assume that no one is going to use it, then you're just... not very clever.

139

Re: Insurance action

Camp-

I wasn't really thinking about PVE options, PVE encounters that caused mass losses of bots would simply be passed up by most corps.

I was more thinking PVP combat or other resource sinks that would make corps have to choose between making NIC or defending, taking, or creating some other objective.

It was simply a 'no brainer' to build'n-bash.

And I agree with you, and I said in my post, greed would eventually make players build'n-bash regardless of the options; so removal of Insurance was inevitable, so better sooner than later.

140

Re: Insurance action

bureaucracy wrote:

snip; Materials needed to be either mined or bought and hauled, the bots needed to be produced and then blown up. snip

I know some of my posts are TLDR, but I make the point that Build'n-bash, which is where you mine resources and sell the bot to the vendor (through blowing it up with insurance) seems like a natural way to turn ORE into NIC quickly.

Where it got out of hand is when it turned into Buy'n-bash, and corps no longer put any more effort then needing to move the ore from alpha to beta to build with.

With buy'n-bash corps were able to keep large reserves of resources as well as generate large sums of NIC.

I'll say it again, I don't hold anything against any person or corp that actually used this method. Its removed now, I just want to make sure that both players and devs take away a learned lesson so the game can improve.

Re: Insurance action

bureaucracy wrote:

some rights some lefts

Bureau, we both seen enough to know how these things start and how they end. This thingy is ended now - so its good for the game and everybody. Lets get it over.

142

Re: Insurance action

Wait, I want to have the last post... smile

The good news, there are lots of sequars on the market for relative cheapness.

Does anyone have 800 Baphs they want to put up on the market too!

143 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-02-14 21:47:59)

Re: Insurance action

Dromsex wrote:
bureaucracy wrote:

some rights some lefts

Bureau, we both seen enough to know how these things start and how they end. This thingy is ended now - so its good for the game and everybody. Lets get it over.

Excuse me, did you miss something here? The issue is not that the situation needed to be corrected, which it did, but that when asked months ago, the DEVs told us and others that it was OK to do it.  They were ASKED FIRST, assented, and people did it.

A month or 2 later, they turn around, point fingers, and shout "Exploiters, bad boy, bad!!!" and arbitrarily grab NIC out of peoples accounts based on merely having a minimal association with those they claim violated a non-existent rule / regulation.

1)  When informed, they approved the activity
2)  Later, they claim that it is an "exploit"
3) They accuse, by name, corps that actually communicated with them prior to doing it to make sure it did not violate any requirement
4) They then perform punitive action against those entities, and also individual member accounts associated with them, without looking at the transaction logs of where those players actually obtained that NIC, such as kernel sales or assignment rewards, and not by insurance, then claim the reason they did was because the player had over a certain amount of NIC, and associated with the entity the claimed were at fault.

People, if you do not see, not only the hypocrisy of the above, and the arbitrary actions performed, then you are blind.  Nothing prevents this from being repeated again in the future, and those currently praising the DEVS actions because it indirectly benefits themselves or hurts their "enemies", could yourselves be the victim of the same behavior.

Truthful reporting of what actually happened by the people who run this game, objective and critical investigation of issues, transparency of process, and factual reporting is essential to maintain customer trust, and the DEVs handling of this issue has seriously eroded that.   

This should matter to everyone, regardless of being affected by it, negatively or positively, because there has to be a clear process of evaluation and resolution, that is thorough, and respects client rights.

The DEVs have been strangely quite during this whole debate, and we all should be clamoring for them to acknowledge the statements in this thread, and to be objective and truthful in that response.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

144 (edited by Dromsex 2011-02-14 21:52:36)

Re: Insurance action

Well i heard the opposite thingy - and last time it was stated yesterday in gen. chat that it of course is known and forbidden since beta.

The internal voices on this have been: ok thanks for telling us, dont spread the word and keep usage to a minimum.

800 sequers dont look like keeping it to a minimum.

Re: Insurance action

Heard = rumor.  I heard today that you are gay, does not mean it is true...

I'm talking about direct communication with the DEVs.  Also, if you read the posts above, you would also see that other corps, not just M2S, also had the same communication.

Read the data in the above posts, not just the emo, and look at what has been done, and I doubt anyone can say that this was handled objectively, factually, truthfully, and professionally by the DEVS.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Insurance action

Yes im talkingh of direct communication: dont spread it and keep it to a minimum.

147 (edited by Drahkar 2011-02-14 22:23:11)

Re: Insurance action

Before I go into explaining the extreme yet overlooked difference between what I call insurance FRAUD and what I call the insurance EXPLOIT, I will list a few facts that are relevant to me and my thread :

Fact 1.
I play Drahkar and Brawn, I never participated in neither the fraud nor the exploit, and neither did my corporation. I'm looking at the problem as a third party who knows some people who were involved.

Fact 2.
A significant number of people who play this game also play or have played the very similar game Eve Online. Eve Online has a nearly identical insurance system which is why this is relevant.

Fact 3.
In the previously mentionned Eve Online, insuring a ship (equivalent of a bot in Perpetuum) and then blowing it up to receive the insurance payout is where the term Insurance FRAUD originated. It is NOT against the rules in Eve Online as it is a self balancing system. It is self balancing because the payout is usually slightly lower than the mineral cost of the ship but when the mineral cost goes down, people commit insurance FRAUD for a while until the mineral prices go up again and insurance FRAUD becomes unprofitable again. The profit made from this activity in Eve Online can be considered insignificant compared to the game's entire economy.

Fact 4.
People coming from Eve Online (and many of those who don't) cannot GUESS that insurance FRAUD is against the rules here. They are in fact very likely to assume that it is NOT. Just like they would be likely to assume that offering to triple someone's NIC and then breaking their promise is ALLOWED unless the opposite is mentionned in the rules somewhere.

Now that everyone is aware of these facts, let's look at the immense yet overlooked difference between Perpetuum's insurance FRAUD and Perpetuum's insurance EXPLOIT.

The Insurance FRAUD

Insurance FRAUD as mentionned above in the facts section has been going on for a while in Perpetuum. It involves either building or buying a bot, both of which cost significant time and/or NIC, insuring it for between 20 and 30% of the insurance's payout value, and then intentionally blowing it up to receive the insurance payout. This practice was and is still genuinely thought of by many honest (probably ex-Eve) players as a legitimate means of getting NIC in exchange for a bot. This means is chosen by some because of its self reliance (you don't need to find a buyer for the bot), for the extra profit (depending on the economy, it can sometimes be more profitable than selling the bot) and surely many other logical reasons (perhaps because blowing up a bot removes it from the market, while selling it could put it in the hands of an opponent).

The Insurance EXPLOIT (which may never have happened)

My knowledge of Perpetuum's insurance mechanics is very limited because I only used it to reduce my losses when dying in PvP, never making an actual profit from it since all my bots were obviously fitted with modules. What I have heard of after the punitive actions is that A SMALL PORTION of the insurance FRAUDers were also using an EXPLOIT to increase their insurance payout. By selling a bot (for example a Kain) back and forth to eachother for a ridiculously high price (for example 100 millions NIC), they would influence the game's insurance system into thinking that the average price that the bot was being sold for was much higher than it really is. This EXPLOIT increased the insurance payout and allowed people to make an much larger UNINTENDED profit from the otherwise legit insurance FRAUD. Note that I'm not sure if the EXPLOIT ever even happened, although it was most likely attempted, but this is the only type of activity that I see here that I think would deserve punitive action.

Hopefully many people will read this or already understand the difference between the two. The Devs have done a very poor job explaining these things and also a very poor job at punishing some innocent people (even some who were involved in NEITHER the fraud nor the exploit).

Sadly, I'm certain that some people with hidden agendas will continue spreading lies about how their opponents in a game are all dishonest cheaters, as if the developpers here haven't made a mistake about the way they handled this, and as if Infestation (I mention it because I see Infestation being targetted by the mob, despite the majority of us being entirely innocent) is one big borg collective where if one is guilty, everyone else is aswell.

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR

Re: Insurance action

Dromsex wrote:

Yes im talkingh of direct communication: dont spread it and keep it to a minimum.

That's a 50 dkp minus...

Re: Insurance action

Too colorfull. Hard to read.

150

Re: Insurance action

looks like a reasonable explanation, thanks.