276 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 21:21:08)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Zoom specifically says he wants to nerf follows here in this thread today.  That is specfically regarding a person with two or more of his accounts one following another.

Zoom, however, is incorrect about who uses follows.  Every class of player uses follows and it is used often.



DEV Zoom wrote:
Gunner wrote:

It isnt spin, Flag is specifically PvP mechanic.....

I know, it's just your implication that's wrong. I don't want to nerf PvP or EWAR or whatever, I want to nerf followbots. It just happens that people use followbots mostly in PvP.

277 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 21:19:20)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

" things that are borderline pay2win"    page 1 first post


DEV Zoom wrote:

For those who are not familiar with it, the "followbot" mechanic is when you select another robot and click the approach button. After that your robot will automagically follow the selected robot wherever it goes.

This can be used for nice things like coordinating squad movement, but also things that are borderline pay2win (using a second account support bot as your pet basically).

Some love it, some hate it, question is: do you want to keep this function or not?

Our solution would be quite simple (and this is just one idea): approach would still work, but it would always go to the momentary position of the target, the coordinate where it has been when you clicked approach.

278 Reply by Rex Amelius (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-01-08 21:20:22)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Shadowmine wrote:

Just for the record, I am ok with removing it completely if that's what the DEV's think is best for the game. I just dont think they think that.

I think I would rather see it removed completely if only given that option. I have all day to drive my miners to the ore field on alpha. Not so in PVP.

This is not being done to nerf having multiple accts, regardless of peoples opinon on that topic. While this change would affect our ability to multibox in PVP. It still would not affect our ability to strip ore fields bare in a few hours time. This discussion isn't about the using of multiple accts, its about the way multiple accts are used. The sooner you realize this, we can continue the discussion. What "way"

We can have the multiple acct discussion in another thread. This is about the "Follow Mechanic".

This looks like a reply to my last post. I sincerely do not see the argument against follow other than undefined "abuse" and and undefined "pay to win". So without telling me its been said a hundred times here and there, try to actually articulate the problem with Follow.

Surely one of you can synthesize the actual argument(s) concisely.

And if you use words like "abuse" or "way" please elaborate as some words mean a 100 things to a 100 people.

I challenge you to make a single concise argument on why Follow is bad. Anyone?

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Shadowmine wrote:

Just for the record, I am ok with removing it completely if that's what the DEV's think is best for the game. I just dont think they think that.

I think I would rather see it removed completely if only given that option. I have all day to drive my miners to the ore field on alpha. Not so in PVP.

This is not being done to nerf having multiple accts, regardless of peoples opinon on that topic. While this change would affect our ability to multibox in PVP. It still would not affect our ability to strip ore fields bare in a few hours time. This discussion isn't about the using of multiple accts, its about the way multiple accts are used. The sooner you realize this, we can continue the discussion.

We can have the multiple acct discussion in another thread. This is about the "Follow Mechanic".

I hate getting buried at the end of a page...

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

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280 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2014-01-08 21:28:31)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Using follow bots in PVP is bad because it gives unfair advantage to anyone willing to subscribe more accounts. cool

// No-one noticed the typo, lol?

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

You cant have a fundamental game mechanic in a sandbox apply to one player and not another.

That is like saying      Gevstar class cant undock.


Shadowmine wrote:
Shadowmine wrote:

Just for the record, I am ok with removing it completely if that's what the DEV's think is best for the game. I just dont think they think that.

I think I would rather see it removed completely if only given that option. I have all day to drive my miners to the ore field on alpha. Not so in PVP.

This is not being done to nerf having multiple accts, regardless of peoples opinon on that topic. While this change would affect our ability to multibox in PVP. It still would not affect our ability to strip ore fields bare in a few hours time. This discussion isn't about the using of multiple accts, its about the way multiple accts are used. The sooner you realize this, we can continue the discussion.

We can have the multiple acct discussion in another thread. This is about the "Follow Mechanic".

I hate getting buried at the end of a page...

282 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 21:33:27)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Using follow bots in PVE/Indusrty is bad because it allows for more efficient movement of bots, materials, and shooty robots in many ways that does translate to an economical advantage and thus military advantage over a person who has just one account.

Burial wrote:

Using follow bots in PVP is bad because it gives unfair advantage to anyone willing to subscribe more accounts. cool

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

I know others are gonna hate on me, But it aint broke, Don't TRY to Fix it, it's just gonna get broke.     cool
Just my 2cents.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Burial wrote:

Using follow bots in PVP is bad because it gives unfair advantage to anyone not willing to subscribe more accounts. cool

Okay. Now we are getting somewhere...

Shadowmine says its not about HAVING multiple accounts it's about HOW you use those accounts. Apparently it is okay to have multiple miners strip-mining alpha but its not okay to have PvPers using follow bots.

Burial says it about HAVING multiple accounts. So Burial do you think it's okay to have multiple miners strip-mining alpha?

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285 Reply by Arga

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Burial wrote:

Using follow bots in PVP is bad because it gives unfair advantage to anyone not willing to subscribe more accounts. cool

Thats not wrong, but it's not very concise.

Multiple bots versus a single bot is always going to have the advantage. The above would be the same regardless of if it was a follow bot or if it was an actual player.

The game is most certainly not balanced for 1 v 1, or for that matter X vs X.

A valid arguement for unfair advantage, is if having multiple bots run by the same person provided some kind of additional benefit beyond what having it run by seperate players could provide.

For example, there is no communication lag when 1 person is running both (or more) accounts, which is an advantage in targeting for example.

286 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2014-01-08 21:31:14)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

^ Fixed my original post lol. It's getting late and servers are still not up. sad

Anyway, I completely agree with you all on the multi-account problem but at the same time I feel it wouldn't be fixed by just removing the follow command. At the same time PVP multi-accounting wouldn't be fixed either though - as I already mentioned pages ago.

287 Reply by Arga

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Rex Amelius wrote:
Burial wrote:

Using follow bots in PVP is bad because it gives unfair advantage to anyone not willing to subscribe more accounts. cool

Okay. Now we are getting somewhere...

Shadowmine says its not about HAVING multiple accounts it's about HOW you use those accounts. Apparently it is okay to have multiple miners strip-mining alpha but its not okay to have PvPers using follow bots.

Burial says it about HAVING multiple accounts. So Burial do you think it's okay to have multiple miners strip-mining alpha?

Rex - Follow only helps for getting the miners to the location, it doesn't help doing the actual mining, as each bot has to target tiles seperatly as well as empty cargo seperately. BUT using multiple accounts to mine is MUCH MUCH more effective than multiple PVP accounts, since each account is fully dedicated; but thats not a follow issue.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

I knew the context.

Burial wrote:

^ Fixed my original post lol. It's getting late and servers are still not up. sad

Anyway, I completely agree with you all on the multi-account problem but at the same time I feel it wouldn't be fixed by just removing the follow command. At the same time PVP multi-accounting wouldn't be fixed either though - as I already mentioned pages ago.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

I mention removing follow all together to Zoom and he just facepalms.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

I am down with the removal of the follow command completely. I dont think everyone else is. Multiple accts will always beat one acct in this game. The idea is to lessen the gap between one acct and four.

And if it takes me having to drive each of my miners to the ore field manually or with autopilot to bring balance to the Force. I am willing to do it.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

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291 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 21:41:46)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Now we are getting somewhere.

The quad miner is just as important as the quad shooter as the quad pvper as the quad lithus guy. Each of these guys deserve to use or not use the same fundamental mechanics.



Shadowmine wrote:

I am down with the removal of the follow command completely. I dont think everyone else is. Multiple accts will always beat one acct in this game. The idea is to lessen the gap between one acct and four.

And if it takes me having to drive each of my miners to the ore field manually or with autopilot to bring balance to the Force. I am willing to do it.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Arga wrote:
Rex Amelius wrote:
Burial wrote:

Using follow bots in PVP is bad because it gives unfair advantage to anyone not willing to subscribe more accounts. cool

Okay. Now we are getting somewhere...

Shadowmine says its not about HAVING multiple accounts it's about HOW you use those accounts. Apparently it is okay to have multiple miners strip-mining alpha but its not okay to have PvPers using follow bots.

Burial says it about HAVING multiple accounts. So Burial do you think it's okay to have multiple miners strip-mining alpha?

Rex - Follow only helps for getting the miners to the location, it doesn't help doing the actual mining, as each bot has to target tiles seperatly as well as empty cargo seperately. BUT using multiple accounts to mine is MUCH MUCH more effective than multiple PVP accounts, since each account is fully dedicated; but thats not a follow issue.

My argument is simple: the reasoning behind Follow nerf is that using Multiple accounts in PvP gives higher income player an advantage over lower income player who cannot field two accounts.

I'm using miners as an illustration that high income player can mine multiple accounts despite Follow. I am not saying mining has ANYTHING to do with Follow.

Thus, I am saying that Follow is a niche target of the general 'Pay to Win' argument and is singling out PvPers while not affecting industry muti-boxing which is arguable just as 'unfair' in the muti-account arena.

I don't think Follow nerf proponents have accurately articulated their case. Period. Why is a PvP muti-account user more 'abusive' than an industry muti-account user?

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293 Reply by Cassius (edited by Cassius 2014-01-08 21:47:13)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Follow is used quite differently in mining than PvP as Arga points out. So any change needs to take into consideration this. And this is why a blanket "change all follow" doesn't equally affect everyone.

I don't think it should be changed at all. But I certainly don't think if its changed in retrospect to how its used for PvP that its should be changed for all other aspects. I understand how its used in different situations Gunner, and Rex, why dont you?

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Rex, its different because in mining multiple accounts, you can manage your miners passively, follow only really aids in cutting down transportation time. In PvP you HAVE to manage your movement in REALTIME because most combat situatins are fluid and change constanly. Same mechanic but HUGE difference in the result.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Rex Amelius wrote:

I don't think Follow nerf proponents have accurately articulated their case. Period. Why is a PvP muti-account user more 'abusive' than an industry muti-account user?

Because a PVP user is more synonymous to wining than mining. How do you win at mining? Do you see any mining- boards.?

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Rex Amelius wrote:

[
Thus, I am saying that Follw is a niche target of the general 'Pay to Win' argument and is singling out PvPers while not affecting industry muti-boxing which is arguable just as 'unfair' in the muti-account arena.

Exactly!! So lets remove the follow command while pvp flagged and/or locking targets. That will help with the pvp issue. Then lets start another thread and discuss ways to do something similar for multiple industrial accts!

Just because this solution doesn't solve all the issues doesn't mean its unworthy of exploration and implementation. It just means there isn't a one sized fits all fix, and it may take several things to bring balance to the Force...

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Cassius wrote:

Follow is used quite differently in minig than PvP as Arga points out. So any change needs to take into consideration this. And this is why a blanket "change all follow" doesn't equally affect everyone.

Yes Follow is almost irrelevant in mining. So changing Follow will not affect mining. This is my point.

The Solution of Follow nerf is aimed at Problem of multi-account advantage.

I'm sayin that Multi-account advantage comes in many varieties, including industry and mining.

So, with the Target focused on Follow, the only Multi-account class under scrutiny is the PvP class.

Why is PvP multi-account more 'abusive' than industry multi-account?

I'm saying its not fair to target only one class.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Shadowmine wrote:
Rex Amelius wrote:

[
Thus, I am saying that Follw is a niche target of the general 'Pay to Win' argument and is singling out PvPers while not affecting industry muti-boxing which is arguable just as 'unfair' in the muti-account arena.

Exactly!! So lets remove the follow command while pvp flagged and/or locking targets. That will help with the pvp issue. Then lets start another thread and discuss ways to do something similar for multiple industrial accts!

Just because this solution doesn't solve all the issues doesn't mean its unworthy of exploration and implementation. It just means there isn't a one sized fits all fix, and it may take several things to bring balance to the Force...

I'm satisfied with this admission. You seem to get my point.

There is no conceivable mechanic change to eliminate multi-industry account management but hey ...start he thread. I'd love to hear those solutions.

I end with this. Unfair to target only the PvP class of multi-account users.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Shadowmine wrote:
Rex Amelius wrote:

[
Thus, I am saying that Follw is a niche target of the general 'Pay to Win' argument and is singling out PvPers while not affecting industry muti-boxing which is arguable just as 'unfair' in the muti-account arena.

Exactly!! So lets remove the follow command while pvp flagged and/or locking targets. That will help with the pvp issue. Then lets start another thread and discuss ways to do something similar for multiple industrial accts!

Just because this solution doesn't solve all the issues doesn't mean its unworthy of exploration and implementation. It just means there isn't a one sized fits all fix, and it may take several things to bring balance to the Force...

Agreed. No point removing Follow from everywhere "just because". Especially if it has marginal results.

New thread should be created for discussing multi-account miners, producers and haulers. Let's stay on topic guys!

300 Reply by Arga

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Rex Amelius wrote:

I don't think Follow nerf proponents have accurately articulated their case. Period. Why is a PvP muti-account user more 'abusive' than an industry muti-account user?

I'm not sure I want to take a side here. Mostly because the follow command is not the real issue. Multi-box software is.

What I mean, is you don't need the follow command to run multiple accounts with marco software. You can press "W" and have it keyed to all the open windows, which does the same thing as follow (just better). And it gives the player full 'situational' control over multiple bots.

Don't get bogged down in PVP vs PVE follow issues.

Why is Follow on the table then? Because follow does a REALLY good job at hiding if a player is using macros. If there wasn't follow, and you saw (5) bots all turn and move at the same time... BAM, caught and banned.

To be clear, the issue isn't with movement though, its being able to FULLY control mulitple bots via macros. Follow just makes it almost impossible to tell if someone is macro'd.