251 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 20:03:23)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

The Devs have limitations to how they can control that.

They can control SpT and Follow, however, to a better extent.








Merkle wrote:

Actually if you really wish to be unbiased in your opinion, this is very similar to the power projection problem.  If I wish and have enough money I can power project all over the place, with unlimited accounts.  There are guys in EVE that do this just for Fun, and it is quite fun to watch.

252 Reply by Line

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Gunner wrote:

Flagged or not flagged whatever Zoom decides should apply to all agents in any case.

It is the only fair way to change the mechanic.


Joe miner has just as much effect on the PvP machine and Bill Mesmer guy.  Pedro the 6 sequer guy is very efficient at moving haulers worth of mats to build PvP bots.

We are all equal.

However, you was all up for SpT change that hurts one part of players more than other. What happened due to Christmas that made you to change and call for equality, Gunner bro?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

"Have your cake and eat it too"

"Reasons is Balance"

So why do you advocate returning deploying mobile teles 1000 m away from terminals, but not placement at 0 on teleports?

Who wants their cake and eat it too? How is that balanced?


Practice what you preach Gunner, you are a smart guy with some good ideas.
But when push comes to shove you are just like anyone else pushing their own agendas.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

SpT equally effects all players unless you are brand new.  New players have all kinds of limitations.

SpT is an unreal ability to move around from place to place with no penalty.  It is quite not the same.



We are talking about Follow mechanics, here.  Stay on topic.





Line wrote:
Gunner wrote:

Flagged or not flagged whatever Zoom decides should apply to all agents in any case.

It is the only fair way to change the mechanic.


Joe miner has just as much effect on the PvP machine and Bill Mesmer guy.  Pedro the 6 sequer guy is very efficient at moving haulers worth of mats to build PvP bots.

We are all equal.

However, you was all up for SpT change that hurts one part of players more than other. What happened due to Christmas that made you to change and call for equality, Gunner bro?

255 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 20:07:16)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Teleporters at zero on gates made movement in beta easymode and also made escaping PvP easy mode.

Teles for stations @ 500m makes leaving stations easymode.



Cassius wrote:

"Have your cake and eat it too"

"Reasons is Balance"

So why do you advocate returning deploying mobile teles 1000 m away from terminals, but not placement at 0 on teleports?

Who wants their cake and eat it too? How is that balanced?


Practice what you preach Gunner, you are a smart guy with some good ideas.
But when push comes to shove you are just like anyone else pushing their own agendas.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Yea Line stay on topic, stop calling him out when he has no idea what else to say.  smile

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle
Scarab Kill Count - 13

257 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 20:09:32)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

I can talk all day about SpT if you want. 

I have a lot to say about it.

but here is "Follow"


and the fact that you are still puzzled about SpT again proves to me that you dont understand the core of the problem



Merkle wrote:

Yea Line stay on topic, stop calling him out when he has no idea what else to say.  smile

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Gunner wrote:

Flagged or not flagged whatever Zoom decides should apply to all agents in any case.

It is the only fair way to change the mechanic.


Joe miner has just as much effect on the PvP machine as Bill Mesmer guy.  Pedro the 6 sequer guy is very efficient at moving haulers worth of mats to build PvP bots.

We are all equal.

Are we even having the same discussion anymore? Im not sure what in the hell you are talking about anymore Gunner.

How does a guy having 2 sequers follow him from tellesis to herschfield have to do with the pvp imbalance of follow bots? I am not making that leap. Can you elaborate please? This seems on the surface to be a scorched earth view of this change.

It is gonna affect the way I do things so IT MUST be made to affect everyone else? This seems to be just a way of muddying the issue to derail the topic...

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

259 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 20:23:30)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

EXACTLY, YOU DONT UNDERSTAND

let me explain


Miners mine ore to make bots and mods that we use to blow up other people and mobs

PVE shooters shoot mobs and gather resources and tech that is used to build bots and mods that are used to blow up people and mobs

PvPers blow up people to get stuff and hold beta or gamma

Beta and gamma are used to gather resources and other things that all contribute to making stuff that we all use to do all of the above

Indy guys make bots and mods with the stuff they got from everyone else and the stuff is sold to people or used for PVE and PvP


Everyone has a role in the PvP game, like it or not.



Follow makes EVERYONE more efficient, when used in a way that zoom is trying to correct.


If you change Follow, you have to change follow for everyone, not just flagged because the flagged guy is just a small part of the greater whole.








Shadowmine wrote:
Gunner wrote:

Flagged or not flagged whatever Zoom decides should apply to all agents in any case.

It is the only fair way to change the mechanic.


Joe miner has just as much effect on the PvP machine as Bill Mesmer guy.  Pedro the 6 sequer guy is very efficient at moving haulers worth of mats to build PvP bots.

We are all equal.

Are we even having the same discussion anymore? Im not sure what in the hell you are talking about anymore Gunner.

How does a guy having 2 sequers follow him from tellesis to herschfield have to do with the pvp imbalance of follow bots? I am not making that leap. Can you elaborate please? This seems on the surface to be a scorched earth view of this change.

It is gonna affect the way I do things so IT MUST be made to affect everyone else? This seems to be just a way of muddying the issue to derail the topic...

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Gunner wrote:

Flagged or not flagged whatever Zoom decides should apply to all agents in any case.

It is the only fair way to change the mechanic.


Joe miner has just as much effect on the PvP machine as Bill Mesmer guy.  Pedro the 6 sequer guy is very efficient at moving haulers worth of mats to build PvP bots.

We are all equal.

Ok so Mesmers are good for mining?
And the mechanic would be applied equally to ALL bots PvP flagged, whether they are miners or not.
How is this not equal?

This change completely negates my ewar demobbing cam mk2 that I would attach to its target, and hope its killed before I die.

And that is me running one account, just this account.
So the change screws this tactic on a non follow bot player.

I am against it.  But I'm not going to repetively spout sarcastic logic and demand everyone gets *** somehow also.

261 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 20:20:35)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

read two above



You think I am being sarcastic?  I am 100% serious and not messing around.

This is an important topic.

I am here to make sure a knee jerk change isnt made.

Cassius wrote:
Gunner wrote:

Flagged or not flagged whatever Zoom decides should apply to all agents in any case.

It is the only fair way to change the mechanic.


Joe miner has just as much effect on the PvP machine as Bill Mesmer guy.  Pedro the 6 sequer guy is very efficient at moving haulers worth of mats to build PvP bots.

We are all equal.

Ok so Mesmers are good for mining?
And the mechanic would be applied equally to ALL bots PvP flagged, whether they are miners or not.
How is this not equal?

This change completely negates my ewar demobbing cam mk2 that I would attach to its target, and hope its killed before I die.

And that is me running one account, just this account.
So the change screws this tactic on a non follow bot player.

I am against it.  But I'm not going to repetively spout sarcastic logic and demand everyone gets *** somehow also.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Gunner wrote:

Teleporters at zero on gates made movement in beta easymode and also made escaping PvP easy mode.

Teles for stations @ 500m makes leaving stations easymode.

The balance or trade off was that you also could not deploy closer than 500 to teles, increasing gank opportunites.

But I don't need to continue to keep pointing the flaws in your arguments.

Good luck with your argument here against this nerf

263 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 20:24:19)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

The 500m station thing was a side effect of how they coded the change.

It was not intentional.

The 500m thing allows people to escape (flee) (run) from beta stations with easymode turned on.

Easy mode is not what we are playing here.

I am waiting for you to make 1 single valid arguement about any of this ,seriosuly.





Cassius wrote:
Gunner wrote:

Teleporters at zero on gates made movement in beta easymode and also made escaping PvP easy mode.

Teles for stations @ 500m makes leaving stations easymode.

The balance or trade off was that you also could not deploy closer than 500 to teles, increasing gank opportunites.

But I don't need to continue to keep pointing the flaws in your arguments.

Good luck with your argument here against this nerf

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

The reality is in EvE the pvper is a small part of the game and the game revenue source.
These types of games NEED 85% of its player base happily mining or playing safe min max spreadsheet. Mechanics changes introduced that make this major potential revenue source for the devs harder or less attractive to play harms the game. PvP is important in this game, but its not the most important.

This is what I get from reading 2 posts above.
Miners play perp.
Combats play perp.
They both play perp, so they are equal.

They play the same game. But they are not equal. They have different roles.
Stop trying to lump them together because you want everyone affected because you are.

265 Reply by Cassius (edited by Cassius 2014-01-08 20:34:16)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Every single response I have made was valid. Its just different than yours.

And ABSOLUTELY the tele change around stations and teles was deliberate.
I would bet money Zoom would confirm this.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

You are incorrect.

Each type of player contributes to the War Machine.

I cant say it any more simple than that.


Cassius wrote:

The reality is in EvE the pvper is a small part of the game and the game revenue source.
These types of games NEED 85% of its player base happily mining or playing safe min max spreadsheet. Mechanics changes introduced that make this major potential revenue source for the devs harder or less attractive to play harms the game. PvP is important in this game, but its not the most important.

This is what I get from reading 2 posts above.
Miners play perp.
Combats play perp.
They both play perp, so they are equal.

They play the same game. But they are not equal. They have different roles.
Stop trying to lump them together because you want everyone affected because you are.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

lets play a game


you select a type of player and I will sit you down and explain how that player contributes to the game and the war machine


(that is a little sarcastic though I think now)

268 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 20:43:40)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Ok real life talk to try and bring the subject in to perspective.



Military Infantryman in Army has 10 support people per 1 infantry to keep the wheels of war going,

Are those 10 people less important?

They are not.



When it comes to PvP where there are bots and mods and stuff to pewpew, there are other people, usually, behind it all.

Those people are just as important and the same GAME MECHANICS should apply to them as anyone else.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Gunner wrote:

EXACTLY, YOU DONT UNDERSTAND

let me explain


Miners mine ore to make bots and mods that we use to blow up other people and mobs

PVE shooters shoot mobs and gather resources and tech that is used to build bots and mods that are used to blow up people and mobs

PvPers blow up people to get stuff and hold beta or gamma

Beta and gamma are used to gather resources and other things that all contribute to making stuff that we all use to do all of the above

Indy guys make bots and mods with the stuff they got from everyone else and the stuff is sold to people or used for PVE and PvP


Everyone has a role in the PvP game, like it or not.



Follow makes EVERYONE more efficient, when used in a way that zoom is trying to correct.


If you change Follow, you have to change follow for everyone, not just flagged because the flagged guy is just a small part of the greater whole.

So by your logic the only way to equitably make this affect everyone is to remove the follow command completely. While I applaud your effort sir to make this an all or nothing issue, that is simply not the case. Whether it has to do with flagged or not, it is applied to all equally. It just may happens that some feel it more than others. This is the nature of game mechanics. The SpT change will affect all players equally, even though some may "feel it" more than others.

The idea of this thread was about the nerf of the approach mechanic. "This can be used for nice things like coordinating squad movement, but also things that are borderline pay2win (using a second account support bot as your pet basically)."

I think there are plenty of good uses for the mechanic, we just need restrictions to keep it from being abused and causing an imbalance in the game. If you really think it is that bad, then by all means remove it completely. I just dont see it as being as big of issue outside of pvp.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

270 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 20:46:18)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Yup



Shadowmine wrote:
Gunner wrote:

EXACTLY, YOU DONT UNDERSTAND

let me explain


Miners mine ore to make bots and mods that we use to blow up other people and mobs

PVE shooters shoot mobs and gather resources and tech that is used to build bots and mods that are used to blow up people and mobs

PvPers blow up people to get stuff and hold beta or gamma

Beta and gamma are used to gather resources and other things that all contribute to making stuff that we all use to do all of the above

Indy guys make bots and mods with the stuff they got from everyone else and the stuff is sold to people or used for PVE and PvP


Everyone has a role in the PvP game, like it or not.



Follow makes EVERYONE more efficient, when used in a way that zoom is trying to correct.


If you change Follow, you have to change follow for everyone, not just flagged because the flagged guy is just a small part of the greater whole.

So by your logic the only way to equitably make this affect everyone is to remove the follow command completely. .

271 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 20:48:03)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

The guy with 10 scarabs moving tons of *** at one time is just as much pay2win as the guy with 3 follows repping him in PvP.

Once that is understood, we will be all set.

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

So is this about pay to win or about the follow mechanic?

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

273 Reply by Rex Amelius (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-01-08 20:59:44)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Shadowmine wrote:

The idea of this thread was about the nerf of the approach mechanic. "This can be used for nice things like coordinating squad movement, but also things that are borderline pay2win (using a second account support bot as your pet basically)."

I think there are plenty of good uses for the mechanic, we just need restrictions to keep it from being abused and causing an imbalance in the game. If you really think it is that bad, then by all means remove it completely. I just dont see it as being as big of issue outside of pvp.

The essential argument for removing follow is the fuzzy "pay to win" line. Somehow it is 'not fair' that one person can control two bots simultaneously when other players can only 'afford' one. So low income player brings one bot, high income brings two bots and low income loses on average. Unfair, right?

So what about those with multiple miners and industry characters that sit and mine or sit in station? It's extremely easy to manage multiple production/mining accounts ...far more than to manage multiple PvP accounts. If low income player can only have one character, surely he cannot be miner/manufacturer/pvper all in one account. So high income player has two miners to produce double the bots to get back on the field to PvP.

I do not see the difference in "pay to win" when it comes to PvP roles or industry roles. Either case can be argued unfair.

ONLY class of "pay to win" players affected by Follow mechanic are PvPers, if flag is introduced, or PvPers/PvErs if just locking nerfed.

Please explain how this is fair?

Sparking to other games

274 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2014-01-08 20:58:13)

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

The origin of the subject with respect to Zooms approach is from the discussions about multiboxing and P2W multiaccounting.

The goal is to make things difficult enough that less people multi.  (as zoom said himself here somewhere), but when he started talking about flagged only, that is where I step in.



I am just making sure people understand equal Agent contribution to the bigger picture of the game and pvp.


Shadowmine wrote:

So is this about pay to win or about the follow mechanic?

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Re: Poll: The "followbot" mechanic

Just for the record, I am ok with removing it completely if that's what the DEV's think is best for the game. I just dont think they think that.

I think I would rather see it removed completely if only given that option. I have all day to drive my miners to the ore field on alpha. Not so in PVP.

This is not being done to nerf having multiple accts, regardless of peoples opinon on that topic. While this change would affect our ability to multibox in PVP. It still would not affect our ability to strip ore fields bare in a few hours time. This discussion isn't about the using of multiple accts, its about the way multiple accts are used. The sooner you realize this, we can continue the discussion.

We can have the multiple acct discussion in another thread. This is about the "Follow Mechanic".

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2