76 Reply by Smokeyii (edited by Smokeyii 2011-07-28 04:26:28)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Winter Solstice wrote:

All I can say in thi is I understand the fear of Alpha manufacturers at finding a stable and affordable epitron scource coming from beta.

I know I personally will be taking this into consideration as our operations expand, if this can help alleviate any fears.


I wouldnt say there's a fear there Winter. There's usually quite a bit of epriton avalible on the market. There are plenty of people who are willing to risk their ships and choose to go and mine epriton on beta, and rightfully so they make a substantial profit in doing so.

The concern here is mostly that unless the situation is worked around, aquiring espitium will ONLY be avalible from those that choose to sell it on the market/trade, or by ninja mining it yourself, as an alpha based person/corporation. But, as an alpha based producer, I do thank you for your consideration roll


@ Jack Jombardo

I did say I get 70% of my Espitium needs -- NOT EPRITON (as it's needed for briochit and alligior as well....) but in retrospet I should have also incluced that I've purpsefully not been making items that require it, except for a few things here and there such as t1 sensor amps, t2 demobs, t4 frames, and a few t4 medium machine guns/t4 firearms tunings. Problay less then 70 mods altogether.

77 Reply by Jack Jombardo (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-07-28 04:53:34)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Smokeyii wrote:

@ Jack Jombardo

I did say I get 70% of my Espitium needs -- NOT EPRITON (as it's needed for briochit and alligior as well....) but in retrospet I should have also incluced that I've purpsefully not been making items that require it, except for a few things here and there such as t1 sensor amps, t2 demobs, t4 frames, and a few t4 medium machine guns/t4 firearms tunings. Problay less then 70 mods altogether.

Ok, but "Smokeyii get 70% of all HIS Espitium from Recycle" is somethink totaly different then Norrdec used it for wink.

I do get all my craft materials from Recycling ... but then I just build for MY personal use (ak T4P-equip (for the lulz *g*) and will need around 3 month to finish this task wink.

@Norrdec ... this two cases do NOT represent the full time Alpha producer! If you quote it, do it right or let it be as nothink hurts more then half/wrong/missused quotes wink.


And still ... it's a plain fact, that there must be a balancing counter to Beta MONOPOLS on the material/producer market. If this balancing counter is destroyed, you hurt new players FAR more then you want to help them @DEVs.

Yes, I hear all this "join old corps, join PvP, buy from us old players, make us rich, play targetdummy for us". I understand this point of view. But this point view does NOT help the game! And they DEVs know it (well, I hope they know it *pray").

78 Reply by Winter Solstice (edited by Winter Solstice 2011-07-28 05:20:41)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Help a non indy - what is espitium composed of? smile

And NRDS (or something close like NBOGDS.. wow thats long big_smile) is actually an idea on the table (a very fluid table, but there nonetheless) for the future.  It will depend on the political environment in the future, which I'm seeing in some quarters becoming a pristine slate, but this could be my carebear optimism for a bright and happy future for players of all types...

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Winter Solstice wrote:

Help a non indy - what is espitium composed of? smile


Epriton, liquizit and imentium.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Smokeyii wrote:
Winter Solstice wrote:

Help a non indy - what is espitium composed of? smile


Epriton, liquizit and imentium.

And this is made with refining?  So maybe some allowances for high recycling point toons being able to be add those points istead to refining or whatever skill it is that makes the 3 into 1?

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81 Reply by Smokeyii (edited by Smokeyii 2011-07-28 05:38:21)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Winter Solstice wrote:
Smokeyii wrote:
Winter Solstice wrote:

Help a non indy - what is espitium composed of? smile


Epriton, liquizit and imentium.

And this is made with refining?  So maybe some allowances for high recycling point toons being able to be add those points istead to refining or whatever skill it is that makes the 3 into 1?


That's still not a valid point, considering you're still removing espitium from being able to be obtained by recycling. And trust me, the recycling here isn't like in the other game. Mission miners will never be as efficient as even a termis miner, and i'd hazzard to say even a noob in an argano could out produce the lower end commodities, and have a cheaper ammo cost to do so. And on top of that, epriton is still needed for alligior and briochit, which is mandatory for heavy mech and t4 production.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Smokeyii wrote:
Winter Solstice wrote:
Smokeyii wrote:

Epriton, liquizit and imentium.

And this is made with refining?  So maybe some allowances for high recycling point toons being able to be add those points istead to refining or whatever skill it is that makes the 3 into 1?


That's still not a valid point, considering you're still removing espitium from being able to be obtained by recycling.

It's a buff and a nerf.  Both happen in sandboxes.  The beauty of sandbox players is an ability to adapt as a community.  I hope we can manage to do that, and if not, further adjustmets can be made mechanically.  (ex: Assault bot buff then subsequent reversion)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Winter Solstice wrote:
Smokeyii wrote:
Winter Solstice wrote:

And this is made with refining?  So maybe some allowances for high recycling point toons being able to be add those points istead to refining or whatever skill it is that makes the 3 into 1?


That's still not a valid point, considering you're still removing espitium from being able to be obtained by recycling.

It's a buff and a nerf.  Both happen in sandboxes.  The beauty of sandbox players is an ability to adapt as a community.  I hope we can manage to do that, and if not, further adjustmets can be made mechanically.  (ex: Assault bot buff then subsequent reversion)

I wonder did you bother reading Arga's suggestion? That could very well be the best solution to this perdicament. You get your cheaper easier to produce t1 crap, recycling still valid form of aquiring Espitium, even if it is small amounts.

84 Reply by Jack Jombardo (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-07-28 06:04:23)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Removing all Epri-Based Materials from T1 is no solution at all.

You allways talk about Sandbox Games ... and in the same breath you demand nerfs for everyone who don't like to play this Sandbox Game as you want him to do.

Sandbox allways includes different ways to reach a goal ... removing one of two ways equals the destroying of the Sandbox. If there is just one way to reach the goal, there is no Sandbox anymore!

Removing of Epriton-Based Materials from T1 == BIG FAT NERF and a punch in the face of every singel Rookie Producer and the hole High Quality Refining.

nothink else

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Smokeyii wrote:
Winter Solstice wrote:
Smokeyii wrote:

That's still not a valid point, considering you're still removing espitium from being able to be obtained by recycling.

It's a buff and a nerf.  Both happen in sandboxes.  The beauty of sandbox players is an ability to adapt as a community.  I hope we can manage to do that, and if not, further adjustmets can be made mechanically.  (ex: Assault bot buff then subsequent reversion)

I wonder did you bother reading Arga's suggestion? That could very well be the best solution to this perdicament. You get your cheaper easier to produce t1 crap, recycling still valid form of aquiring Espitium, even if it is small amounts.

And get fragments to make bots from where then?

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I play MMOs. I need a signature which is deep, thought provoking, and devours bandwidth with the voracity of rabid weasels. It is also, by nature, vaguely sad with a tinge of my obvious internal, unfathomable loneliness. Like this, sad  , but at 1.3megs packed into 2 by 6 inches. ANIMATED.
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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Other changes mentioned are to make geology missions Artifact missions. If they turn all flawed modules in to flawed Niani modules, they then become unuseable T3 and will recycle as a T3.

Beta is a Mafia war and alot of Industrial people don't want any part of it. With 8 ways to get to Beta from Alpha, all covered by watchmen you are either in the mafia or you are no involved in industrial after T1. I prefer flawed Niani.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Smokeyii wrote:

Again, we're back to trying to force people to play your way.

You prefer it your way, I prefer it my way. What is your point exactly?

The more hardcore you make this game, the less people are going to play it.

A certain other MMO contradicts this statement.

Why is it so important to you that Alpha not have the shiny toys that you do, because you're on beta?

I'm not on Beta.

Why should solo players (or corps that dont want to live on beta) be penalized?

Because this is supposed to be a multi-player game, not a collection of single players. Also you don't have to "live" on beta to get the spoils of beta.

-----

You destroy your own argument while trying to counter mine anyway. The only thing they lose is an easy way to make their own high-end modules. They still have access to the market and the end product.

Arga wrote:

What if espitium was recycled from fragments instead of modules?

Just shifting the loop-hole in my opinion.

-----

Hardly surprising that those not in favour are the first to resort to name calling and personal abuse.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Skydell wrote:

With 8 ways to get to Beta from Alpha, all covered by watchmen you are either in the mafia or you are no involved in industrial after T1

So this is what talking to a brick wall is like sad

Really, honestly and truly 99% of the time there are no "watchmen". Nothing and no-one will stop you guys except for your own fear.

89 Reply by Norrdec (edited by Norrdec 2011-07-28 09:48:29)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

I am sorry for saying someone is getting 70% of epriton while he was saying espitum.
On the other hand espitum wouldn't be there if not for epriton. So thanks for being nitpicky and looking for my small errors smile The big part of my argument still stands.

Alpha got nerfed, beta got buffed.

You can't have alpha a only-buffed-zone. It is like that for the moment.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

- lol Big nerf for indy new industrial (who fking feed the >T1 public market) and buff the Beta megacorps , i get it ,. very sanboxy.

- Old mmo story to my ears; pvp sharks need the carebars to have easy kills as they are afraid to fight themselves => DEV team caters to big paying coprs and game bleeds "carebears" who hate to be forced to play the game some brats wish => Game enters new "golden" era.:lol:

- If you want to drag ppl to beta, put more incentives ,. make it more alpha friendlly (you beta corps gatecamping ftl, kos, mining deals lol?), but changing things that are not issue and DO not help new producers and as pointed here before only a small bunch of T1 items dont come from drop (oh yeah  , sensor amps!!, they are very expensive and i want use them all time QQ; Sr. also are T4 tunnings and i dont come here begging for a change in others ppl playstyle i just dont use them allways or farm some cash to afford it).

-HGR just gives espitium!, damn, that aint that fking hard. Alpha producers want that espitium so they can effectivelly use their research and produce their fking T2, T3 modules for the open market, so more small corps can acces to them and go pvp. Its that sOOO imbalance and sOOO wrong? yeah ppl playing their game and not bending to your leadership should all screw up?. No mechs, no T4, where its the issue?

This its a FAIL as comunity and a rampage of the greed.

91 Reply by Norrdec (edited by Norrdec 2011-07-28 10:02:16)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

How to make it alpha friendly? Give free epriton or 20 mil each time you port to beta? Dev's are trying to push you a bit to beta,  so they nerf alpha.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

this its way out of topic,

- Gate camping its a bad thing, if i where Dev team i would act in that direction before hurting >T1 modules maket (research also less interesting etc etc,).

- KOS to neutrals its responsability of beta corporations, i dont rlly give a fun about this since i have found my way to sneack into beta when i wanted but i see why some ppl complaint about; you want more ppl to go beta but dont support with acts.

- Again, each person jumps to pvp zones when they feel like, even the most carebearish will go there when his time comes, just dont force them as this its, so far, just a game.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Even if it is a sadbox game, there are some outlying rules. They changed one and everyone is mad smile

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94 Reply by Rodger Wilcoe (edited by Rodger Wilcoe 2011-07-28 11:12:48)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Hehulk wrote:

Really, honestly and truly 99% of the time there are no "watchmen".

Who watches the watchmen? tongue

Norrdec wrote:

Even if it is a sadbox game, there are some outlying rules. They changed one and everyone is mad smile

I do like how some use the "sandbox" argument as a reason not to change anything that they don't agree with.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

-Well, most of big corps are not "mad" pretty good hint who will beneffit the most; "much easier and competitive entry to the industrialist career" 100% false.

-Sandbox argument its used so mecanics dont narrow gameplay, have u even readed part of the thread by any chance? supporting diversity its good for sanbox games T1 only market aint diversity, forcing independent idustrials to stick to T1 aint diversitiy, making recycle a useless path aint diversity. What im sure sandbox does not mean its bring more noobs/independants to my target computer pls, in real sanboxes that its your bussines.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

My gameplay would be a lot better if the still had immunity zones on  beta! Oh and gun wielding arkhes all the time! BUT THEY TOOK IT ALL AWAY! I can't spawn in a gunwielding arkhe on beta! My gameplay is borked now! You call this a sandbox?

Yes you call this a sandbox still. It narrowed gameplay, it doesnt matter if it made griefing easier.

Nat once you say you did trade, ninja, buy the ability to do stuff on beta.
Yes they are taking one source of high quality stuff from alpha, so you can do it on beta.

Hell let's talk about EVE and capships. I never played the game, but I know this: you can't make the on alpha and only on beta. The way you are thinking they limited the gameplay because it's only on beta? Oh noes what a fail of a sandbox.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Nordec; that aint true mate; arkhe nerf was due to ppl exploiting them and causing a imbalance between then low cost and cero repair of service bots like arkhes and the rest of bots.
I dont see the similitude here, HGR its only a option to get some espitium in alpha, no the raw material for Beta only (so no broken epi beta only rule), just one out of 3 top tier comodities, the most insignificant one, and no in huge numbers but sufficient for a independent player.
There its a dedicated extension path, need to improve reputation and so, so it seems more like a bend towards the bloodthirsty megacorps than a way to improve the acces to industry and market for new industrialists.
We dont talk about me, i dont need that extension any more, and that EP will be very welcome when HGR goes to hell. But i know positevilly this aint helping the newplayers and that upsets me enough to get vocal in this subject, as i want PO to get better, no just more kilmails.
And i never player EVE, so can´t say much about that.

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Rodger Wilcoe wrote:
Smokeyii wrote:

Again, we're back to trying to force people to play your way.

You prefer it your way, I prefer it my way. What is your point exactly?

The more hardcore you make this game, the less people are going to play it.

A certain other MMO contradicts this statement.

Why is it so important to you that Alpha not have the shiny toys that you do, because you're on beta?

I'm not on Beta.

Why should solo players (or corps that dont want to live on beta) be penalized?

Because this is supposed to be a multi-player game, not a collection of single players. Also you don't have to "live" on beta to get the spoils of beta.

-----

You destroy your own argument while trying to counter mine anyway. The only thing they lose is an easy way to make their own high-end modules. They still have access to the market and the end product.

Arga wrote:

What if espitium was recycled from fragments instead of modules?

Just shifting the loop-hole in my opinion.

-----

Hardly surprising that those not in favour are the first to resort to name calling and personal abuse.


Yes, of course I perfer it my way, and you perfer it yours, the diffrence here is I'm not trying to force you to stay on alpha.

I don't know what other MMO you're talking about, but if you're talking about EVE then you're sadly mistaken as EVE has a very large carebear population, and many who do not venture into null or lowsec at all. And their golems still have officer mods.

This still is a multiplayer game, if I choose to farm everything for myself, how is that diffrent then the communistic corp that farms everything for themselves? Because there's more then 1 player that does it? Their only outside interaction is shooting noobs that jump onto their island, and occassionally having a real pvp match. And, again... stop trying to force me to play the way you play.

Sandbox has always meant freedom, and choice to me. Themeparks take you for a ride from one spot to the next as you progress. Sandboxes plop you into it and hope you build a castle. If you get friends along the way to help you build yours, great. If others don't, so what?

And just so you know, it's not "an easy way" to make modules. If you bother reading other posts you'll see this mechanic is far from broken. At most you'll get enough espitium from farming to build a few things here and there. It was already been nerfed since release.

Reset each other yet?

99 Reply by Norrdec (edited by Norrdec 2011-07-28 15:01:42)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

So either it's game breaking for you guys, or just barely enough to make a few things here and there. So which one is it Smokey? I can't really say on my own, because you are stating both at the same time.
It looks like someone took your apple and at first you shout at him that you are going to die from hunger because of that and then just state a fact that I would barely satisfy your needs (You didn't want that apple anyway).

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100 Reply by Snowman (edited by Snowman 2011-07-28 15:07:10)

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Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

I think with eve you can carebear in high-sec and easily farm enough money to purchase those expensive modules and resources, found only in 0.0 (equivelent beta)

But there isnt the thriving, healthy market in PO that allows an Alpha side corp to do that... at least not to the extend that they can happily pvp competitively and still not have unbridled access to Beta.

Personally a great deal of all the problems comes down to that 'lack of market' issue.

Its like I said, so long ago ; http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … e-economy/