Topic: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Furthermore we also plan to replace all epriton based components in T1 modules. This and the above changes will allow for a much easier and competitive entry to the industrialist career.

So maybe I'm a little late coming to this realization, but I've got mixed feelings about this change, as I assume that the removal of epriton componets means that they'll also be removed from recycling. While I think it's nice that I'll be able to make t1 sensor amps without requiring espitium, what happens if I decide to make t2, and those DO require espitium, but I cannot get any from recycling.

Essentially the only people that this change will actuallly help are day old characters who want to make things right from the get-go.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think it'll be intended mechanics to be able to make 100's of t1 demobs and then recycle them for espitium.

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

You wont recycle any T1 modules from Alpha drops to get Espitium to build higher tier modules on Alpha in perfect safety. Want better then T1, artifacts or mine on Beta. smile

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Stop trolling, its essentially what this change means. If you can't get espitium from T1 mods, then it doesn't matter if you recycle T1 demobs or T1 cargo scanners, you won't get Espitium. The only way to get Espitium will be through refining and/or recycling high-tier modules.

It might be possible to recycle Niani stuff from artifacts.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Sorry, you're the one that's trolling here. You spout nonsense about wanting mechanics to change to force people on alpha to have to go to beta so that you can have more targets, and then directly contradict yourself by forming the largest alliance in the game.

If you want more fights, reset RG, Hydra, MORTE, DEAPr and ADLN, let Chaos and F-Navy off the leash. A change like this wont affect anyone who produces on beta, so what does it matter to you if alpha producers can get espitium from recycling mods on alpha?

It's not about getting more fights, it's about getting more easy fights you can surely win.

Now, let people who this change WILL affect have a chance to debate it.

*edit: Offensive. - DEV Zoom

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

With a second account, we can farm bots for modules just like combat accounts.

So, some industrials as well as combat only players can get large quantities of modules.

There is basically no market for cargo scanners and some other espitium containing modules, so it makes sense to recycle those for the materials and either use them or sell them.

For other modules, there is a market and they can be repaired and sold for profit.

The 'idea' here is to open up manufactoring of T1 items to new producers, but the reality is that the supply of most items comes from repaired modules; so the majority of T1 items are not worth producing anyway.

The stuff that doesn't drop, like sheilds, indy tuners, sensor amps, ect. are the profitable items to produce; in fact they must be produced for the most part.

Yes, removing espitium as a material cost will make it easier for new producers and greatly reduce the cost of all T1 items across the board which will also benefit new combat players.

The only real change is that it won't be as profitable to recycle a subset of T1 modules anymore, the repair and sell income will remain the same because the profitable items don't drop.

Really, I think the 'good for new players', while valid, is just a way to spin the removal to avoid the push-back of removing another resource from Alpha.

So, I agree with you Smoke, but I also think that it's going to happen regardless because it's seen as a 'loop-hole' in epitron being beta only.

In the overall scheme, does the benefit to PVP with lower cost of entry and giving new indy's a way to break into the market outweight the loop-hole? Techncially we are better able to afford epi, and can raise the cost of T2+ goods accordingly to account for the removal of espitium. It's a nerf to be sure for anyone, including combat pilots, that farm espitum modules, but it may be better for the overall game.

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

I'm not sure about this upcomming change.

Im happy if espitium gets removed from T1 items like Scanner, Sensor Amp and CPU/Reactor modules.
There is no reason to craft drainer or neuts, or Ewar, they drop very often. Those can keep espitium as recycling source IMHO.

Also - its not sure how much espitium you will need for T2 or T3 items that got it removed from T1. Im also ok if it needs it in fractions, of less then 100 per item

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

So, remove espitum from T1 modules that don't drop on alpha?

Sounds good to me, but not sure it's balanced big_smile

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

It actually makes production a bit more complex, because it might be more worthwhile to produce T1 modules rather then waste ammo farming them 24/7. Sure, farming is still gonna be done for plasma/decoders/kernels, but maybe now industrial characters will be able to outproduce efficiency-wise the combat+max.repper toon.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Smokeyii wrote:

While I think it's nice that I'll be able to make t1 sensor amps without requiring espitium, what happens if I decide to make t2, and those DO require espitium, but I cannot get any from recycling.

How about... buying it from people who don't mind being shot at? On open market, perhaps? A foreign concept in this game, I know. wink

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

We wanted the epi removed from t1 modules because there are a number of expensive to build ones that don't drop that currently use it. So we're pretty pleased, as it lets us use the stuff on t3/t4 production.

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Who views recycling modules for espitium as a loophole? I don't. In beta it was almost more profitable to live on alpha, buy modules from the market and recycle them for espitium. That's the loophole I think you're thinking of, and it was fixed when they nerfed the amount of espitium recevied from recycling.

Is this coming from beta players who're upset that alpha players can get espitium from it? Who cares? They're already sitting on all the espitium they could want. Who crafts T1 stuff for the most part anyways? Espcially the stuff that requires espitium, but still drops from mobs. You can buy that on the market for really cheap prices as it is.

It's a nerf to anyone who farms for nic on alpha. It's a nerf for anyone intrested in producing t2-t4 on alpha, or mechs, or heavy mechs, or ewar bots, or mk2 robots, which in turn is a nerf to the people that want to buy those from the market, as the beta corps don't produce for the market. 

So what, now beta mining corps can charge MORE on the market for epriton? They already control that area, and alot of the market trading of epriton. There's ample reward for living on beta, and everyone knows it... Easy acess and control of vast amounts of Epriton which regardless if they sell it or not, *** tons of nic.

Maybe this is spin from the devs, calling it an industry buff/love, but I dont see it working for anyone older then 1 week if espitium gets removed from t1 items recycling. The beta players already have the biggest incentive to be on beta. It's not the alpha players fault that beta players choose to adapt a certian playstyle, which directly contradicts theirs stated intended goal of creating more conflict. We don't need Dev changes to nessitate combat, we need players changing to provide the conflict themselves. This is a sandbox afterall.

Alliances have formed for control of epriton. Wars have been fought over epriton. People have been removed from alliances for taking too much epriton. Gangs have been lead to other peoples island to mine all their epriton. Remember syndic what you told me would happen should I lead a gang to mine all yours or m2's epriton? In the end that's what this game is about to some people. It's not about having "good fights" or pal'ing around with yer buddies.

Got to be kidding me taking espitium from t1 items. Stupid.

and Yeah, I'm mad.

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

AeonThePiglet wrote:

We wanted the epi removed from t1 modules because there are a number of expensive to build ones that don't drop that currently use it. So we're pretty pleased, as it lets us use the stuff on t3/t4 production.

I don't know about you, but for the most part I'm able to supply roughly 70% of my eptriton needs by farming mobs that drop T1 items that have espitium.

Demobs - needed for pvp, can be farmed on alpha from ew mobs.
Drainers, ECMs, Sensor supressors, weapons tunings. All useful for pvp, all contain espitium.

All of them are farmed really easily. On Alpha. If you're a combat charater you could be selling them on the market.

All of them are needed in further teirs of production, which all WILL require espitium. In essence you're making it easy for people to make their own teir 1, while widening the gap to teir 2, but it teir 1 crap is already easy to farm or buy on the market, what's the point?

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Out of curiosity, would you be able to supply 100% of your needs by buying on the market? If you can, then by farming T1 mods you're simply choosing to pay for eptriton with your time instead of NIC.

If there is not enough espitium/eptriton available on the market in general - as in, it's just not there to be bought in sufficient quantities - that's a much more serious problem.

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Farming NPC's costs time and ammo, but also directly supplies NIC in the form of plasma which itself makes NPC farming profitable. In addition to the plasma, you also get 'marketable stuff'; ammo, 50% kernel drop, modules, and fragments.

Buying off the market is a pure cost center, farming espitium is a by-product of a profitable activity in itself. So it's actually better than 'free', since your getting paid to collect it. The volume of espitium that drops is very low, but when your recycling 1000's of modules it adds up quickly.

If your buying epitron, then you also have to worry about your refining and relation skills, as well as buying and hauling the other materials in espitium (if your not located in an alpha-II outpost).

If you don't have a combat alt, then your only option is to buy and refine, but NPC farming with a combat alt is preferrable.

Of course, this only applies if your producing Espitium based modules. Alligor doesn't drop in any quantity worth mentioning, so when your producing bots you have to buy off epitron off the market, so NPC farming will never replace the Epi market.

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

The amount of Espitium in the game is being reduced, the amount needed is hardly changing, hence the price will rise. This will mot help new players.

We also do not know what the Espitium is going to be replaced with.

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

And there goes the last little bit of independence alpha island dwellers have from buying epriton from beta dwellers. Seriously though, with a 60% ct, my skills and relation, i need 300 espitium to make 5 t1 sensor amps, which takes app. 50 modules that contain espitium to recycle. Not exactly game breaking.

17 (edited by Hehulk 2011-07-27 00:48:17)

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

All you guys saying I don't wana go out to those betas to mine epriton, have any of you ever actually used that immunity timer (The one that that almost perfectly syncs up with the instability timer) you get from teleporting to see how heavily camped those oh so dangerous beta islands actually are? Or if you can get past the heavy defences there, that there's say, any epriton fields not being surrounded by a wall of gunfire?

Because I certainly never have, and I certainly never made my small fortune that way.

18 (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-07-27 01:21:08)

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Syndic wrote:

Stop trolling, its essentially what this change means. If you can't get espitium from T1 mods, then it doesn't matter if you recycle T1 demobs or T1 cargo scanners, you won't get Espitium. The only way to get Espitium will be through refining and/or recycling high-tier modules.

It might be possible to recycle Niani stuff from artifacts.

If this happens the allready small market will become even smaler close to not exsiting for any T2+ item! And gthe price for any T2+ item (if by excident put into the market) will skyrock as the only surce of Epriton (high quaility materials) will be Beta.

And in the same patch you can delete the high quality recycling extension too as there is no use for it anymore!

Beta player don't need high quality recycling as they better mine Epriton and sell the t2+ loot.
Alpha player better use the t2+ stuff or sell it then recycle it.
-> high quality recycling will be 100% wasted EP!


@Hehulk
No, I never tryed the timers as I do not care about Beta! And many more players don't care too. For them (and me) Betas are irelevant gamestuff we don't need nor want. And NOTHINK will change this!
If a patch changes stuff so we MUST go there ... a larghe quantity of player will for sure stop playing this game and your population will go back to where it was 2 month ago.

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

And in the same patch you can delete the high quality recycling extension too as there is no use for it anymore!

This.

@Hehulk
No, I never tryed the timers as I do not care about Beta! And many more players don't care too. For them (and me) Betas are irelevant gamestuff we don't need nor want. And NOTHINK will change this!
If a patch changes stuff so we MUST go there ... a larghe quantity of player will for sure stop playing this game and your population will go back to where it was 2 month ago.

Most assuredly this.

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Make a deal with a corp that can provide you with epriton and provide them with titan ore instead? Negotiate mining rights on Beta? Buy epriton off the market? Ninja-mine epriton because theres a field 500m from teleport on every Beta island? Mine alpha-materials, and broker a deal where you sell to alpha-materials to them at a reduced price and in exchange they sell you epriton at reduced price?

Srsly u guys. Srsly.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

21 (edited by Sundial 2011-07-27 02:04:32)

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

The demand was already high, and since communist beta corps don't need NIC as CIR loves to proclaim, where does this leave alpha players, especially industrial players that we need to support for a healthy and functional market?

1. One less way to get a small amount of epi if they spent alot of time farming
2. Little to no supply of epi on the market for them to buy due to the corps on beta being largely communist

This may be great for people looking for new pets but its not good for the alpha dwelling industrial corps of the game.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

From what I understand, removing the T1 epitron cost, and the revamp about production efficiency,  will both allow low-skilled characters to craft low-level equipment at a very competitive price.

This is a very good thing for the market.


Recycling will become a lot less useful since you won't get espitium from T1 and reuse it in T2/3/4 production. This may become a problem, if the production revamp doesn't also lower some costs, and if the devs don't increase the epitron yield in beta.
(But in that regard, devs did increase the epitron yield in beta by reducing it's volume in latest patch)

I think this a step in the right direction. The change is only a partial solution, but it is still in the right direction.

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

23 (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-07-27 02:18:21)

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Sundial wrote:

The demand was already high, and since communist beta corps don't need NIC as CIR loves to proclaim, where does this leave alpha players, especially industrial players that we need to support for a healthy and functional market?

I got it long time ago: this guys don't want PvP against equal strong enemys ... all they want is target dummy pewpew and get real money out of their mining bot scquads.
Sorry if I had to do it again: everyone KNOW how it works from this other SiFi MMO. And there was no 00-ally/corp, which didn't bug-abuse (BoB, Ewoke anyone) or RMT (russians, NC, goons).
If some guys at forums try to tell us anythink else, they simply LIE!
Hell, even here M2S allready did this bug-abuse ***.

This guys do NOT want a real market as they
a) can't e-peen with miner/hauler kills 20v1 on killboards anymore if this miners/haulers don't need to go to PvP-land.
b) get less profit out of the RealMoneyTraded when people don't need to buy Epriton for 1.000.000 NIC/unit

The other SiFi MMO is to big, to totaly control the market ... now they try it in Perpetuum ....

Epriton-Based high end materials MUST stay as recycling stuff in T1 loot!
There is absolut no way around if the market should not die!

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

As far as I'm concerned, the value of any given commodity is determined by its market price, not its source. Whether any particular batch of espitium or epriton was ninja mined, farmed along with plasma or dropped into my lap by a confused tooth fairy is absolutely irrelevant - it can be sold for a certain amount, and that's what goes into my cost calculations. Combat players do not normally sell their espitium at a fraction of its market price because they got some kernels and plasma to go along with it, so why would I?

My main concern with this change has to do with market availability. It just doesn't look like there is much reason for beta corps to sell epi back to alpha, so we'll be down to ninja mined stuff and leftovers from various corp arrangements.

Re: Indy Changes: "Replace" Epriton in t1.

Now for many items I'm using up a factory line to make the T1 items to use in T2 production, because it's cheaper then buying them; for non-farmable modules.

Having a new producer make them for me saves me the time and factory line, and I become an income source for the new producers; so they're not just selling T1 modules to PVP'ers.

depending on the module, it may even work out that beta corps will just buy T1 off the market too, since they have the same limited factory lines, and high % CT's for bots tie up lines for weeks.

Again, i have to say that no matter how many modules your producing, the Epitron needs of making heavy mechs so dominates the market that the extra demand for espitium won't even phase it. Remember, you won't need espitium for T1, so only those producing t2-4 will be using epitron, and there's not 1000's of tiered modules being produced on alpha per week, which is what it would take to see any change.