101 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2013-06-16 20:10:20)

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Re: Ore relocation

Syndic wrote:
Burial wrote:

Syndic it is apparent that you don't know much about game mechanics anymore. Just to burst your bubble, it's not possible to bypass emergency modes with plasma bombs.

This thread has gone absolutely absurd, some people complaining that others have too big stockpiles because they have kept playing while they themselves have enjoyed other games. You really believe getting server resets every time something like this happens is beneficial to the game?

I started this thread for ideas how to make beta islands more important and appealing to the players but this is where we are now, no wonder devs don't ask much questions from players.

Guess what I just did and bypassed? wink

Only thing you did is write the forum post here, doubt you had any chance to test anything with us stomping on your island.

// Here you go, I ran the tests again and here is the result: http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/81832/#p81832

102 Reply by Tux

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Re: Ore relocation

So let me make this perfectly clear .. the bug you are referring to is news to me (and should have been posted if you knew about it). 

You can ask and verify with the devs no plasma bombs were used during this assault.

Your design was so bad that it crumbled under the force of our assault period

TL;DR your design was bad .. really bad, get over it

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
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Re: Ore relocation

The ore certainly has run out in this thread.

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Re: Ore relocation

Lemon wrote:
Merkle wrote:

Lets just restate this again...the unlimited fields you speak of, are on beta and alpha as well...


Just dont complain when heavy's triple in price and the mods to fit them do just the same.

Its laughable to compare mining to m2s right clicking and insta 100 heavy mechs.

Been giving you far to much credit this whole time apparently.

I dont care about limited or unlimted fields, my point has to do with the stock-piles and the EP difference between us and new players. I am stating that the game cannot handle the population needed to offset the advantages we have over them. In order for them to even have a fighting chance.

In the event that a population rise does happen and it is not at the proper level they will have the same experiences and results as many of the corps in our past have. They will face enemy's who appear to be unbeatable and never ending assets. Being low on EP and lack of experience there ability to combat the vets will be almost not existent. It will be like running on beta 4x4 box on beta with a arkhe with no guns, except they

We had to face a group at launch that only had 2-4 months EP advantage on us with resources and knowledge. You know what that perception did for the moral of the players during that time.

Do you see what I am getting at or should I finger paint it for you guys? limited or unlimted resource, If they arn't worth gathering then it wont matter which they are.

I suppose if Ludlow the stats guy in NeBs was bored we could ask him to complie a list of the 10 highest EP Veterans who have killed the most noobs. You know, Lemon, the very imbalance you are referring to.

I wonder who would top the list?

105 Reply by Cookie Monsta Jr (edited by Cookie Monsta Jr 2013-06-17 02:38:45)

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Re: Ore relocation

So me bringing up integrating new players in to the current environment and the # that we would need for them to succeed has turned in to this.

Cool

-Lemon

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Re: Ore relocation

Cassius wrote:

The ore certainly has run out in this thread.

then let me help, my thoughts =

Epriton = beta only
I think that it can generate pvp if people are smart and bring a few combat bots to defend miners, maybe a detector and some logged off bots, I think newer corporations that get off to the right foot can handle that. BKBNc had to deal with the risk of getting ganked during epri mining ops on norhoop. You would have to be smart and have bots to defend ops so miners have chance to escape, safe log, etc. and people who would run around on beta with miners undefended are just screaming to be ganked in my opinion. And remember there are 6 different islands so... (more ranting) and I have nothing more to say

Titan ore = alpha + gamma
No comments
Colixium = gamma only
No comments
I also think that other then being able to plant noralgis, I also think there should also be an amount that grows on beta. smile

Now the ore will hopefully comeback, at least for the next 5 posts I hope smile

Reading this signature fills you with determination.
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Re: Ore relocation

Cassius wrote:
Lemon wrote:
Merkle wrote:

Lets just restate this again...the unlimited fields you speak of, are on beta and alpha as well...


Just dont complain when heavy's triple in price and the mods to fit them do just the same.

Its laughable to compare mining to m2s right clicking and insta 100 heavy mechs.

Been giving you far to much credit this whole time apparently.

I dont care about limited or unlimted fields, my point has to do with the stock-piles and the EP difference between us and new players. I am stating that the game cannot handle the population needed to offset the advantages we have over them. In order for them to even have a fighting chance.

In the event that a population rise does happen and it is not at the proper level they will have the same experiences and results as many of the corps in our past have. They will face enemy's who appear to be unbeatable and never ending assets. Being low on EP and lack of experience there ability to combat the vets will be almost not existent. It will be like running on beta 4x4 box on beta with a arkhe with no guns, except they

We had to face a group at launch that only had 2-4 months EP advantage on us with resources and knowledge. You know what that perception did for the moral of the players during that time.

Do you see what I am getting at or should I finger paint it for you guys? limited or unlimted resource, If they arn't worth gathering then it wont matter which they are.

I suppose if Ludlow the stats guy in NeBs was bored we could ask him to complie a list of the 10 highest EP Veterans who have killed the most noobs. You know, Lemon, the very imbalance you are referring to.

I wonder who would top the list?

Neoxx

108 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2013-06-17 18:49:50)

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Re: Ore relocation

Every time ore topics pops up, it ends up on quite lengthy replies followed by politics. This just stresses the importance of resource gathering and how it affects all other aspects of the game.

Zoom's suggestion in theory seems quite neat, but I have to disagree, simply because base builders don't want, or need to lead a nomadic life style, players in gamma want to stay put and build an empire. Which ever way you go about this, resource will ALWAYS remain infinite, for obvious reasons. The only cap Devs can place is to 'delay' the resource extraction. Simple solution is to lower the minimum threshold for field respawn if needed.

Delay extraction by forcing players to move/relocate/scan: This has already been done in a way with the new roaming ore spawn mechanics and 'balanced' with the directional scanner. Beats me why it needed such a simple scanning mechanism; maybe change scanning back the old way. In my opinion moving respawns interisland wide will be  PITA.

Delay by moving certain key ores to beta: Not in favour if this idea, it has been beaten to death and tried before with titan ore , unfortunately scarabs are not enough to move large quantities of materials. I would think about it when we have bigger haulers available.

Gamma does not need ores taken away or depleted, you risk everything in gamma, players risk those assets to gain advantages, nerf resources, gamma becomes worthless. What gamma needs is a proper sovereignty system where one owns the island and gains advantages depending on island activity, proper renting mechanics etc.

RIP PERPETUUM

109 Reply by Arga

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Re: Ore relocation

It sounds like people are looking at this change only in how it effects themselves right now and not how a change would benefit the overall game play.

Change: Mined ore respawns on the Island with the lowest density of that ore, excluding the originating island.

Play out some scenrio's, what issues could this cause?

110 Reply by Tux

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Re: Ore relocation

Arga wrote:

It sounds like people are looking at this change only in how it effects themselves right now and not how a change would benefit the overall game play.

Change: Mined ore respawns on the Island with the lowest density of that ore, excluding the originating island.

Play out some scenrio's, what issues could this cause?

I dont think this game should be designed to make it almost mandatory to travel form island to island in search of mineral fields. the transport system does not support it.

The way the current mechanics are set you would be asking the devs to do a lot more than just move the fields from island to island when they are mined. the map network (transport system) would need a major overhaul to make mining feasible under the system you are asking for.

Unless you are based in the center of the game map (alpah) the potential distances needed to travel over time would make mining as a profession very very painful. This is taking into account that the mineral fields will move off island after several fields have been cleaned out.

So should everyone live on alpha and go out the the betas and gammas to mine epri / nora / colixium ?

I would hope not.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

111 Reply by Martha Stuart (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-06-19 15:58:06)

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Re: Ore relocation

I would be down with Arga's/Zoom's systems if you gave me a hauler that can hold 5000U.  I do not support this system so long as the largest hauler we have is a Scarab mkII.

And if this system is put into place, DEAR GOD make the haulers a little more sturdy.  If I have to ninja mine again in enemy territory the hauler needs to be something along the lines of a Lithus that can hold 5000U, but moves at 20 kph.  whatever it is, this system is not even possible right now with the current indy equipment we have now.

112 Reply by Ludlow Bursar (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2013-06-19 16:21:29)

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Re: Ore relocation

There is a radical solution to hauling / lack of PvP / walled off gammas to name but three of the things discussed in this thread. The solution is not without challenges (although I think overcoming them would only need tweaks) and I do suggest this seriously for consideration.

Get rid of teleports ... all of them.

Bots all have the ability to teleport ANYWHERE within a certain range (including interzone) but can't if they are either flagged or locked.

Think about it ...

113 Reply by Arga

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Re: Ore relocation

Tux wrote:
Arga wrote:

It sounds like people are looking at this change only in how it effects themselves right now and not how a change would benefit the overall game play.

Change: Mined ore respawns on the Island with the lowest density of that ore, excluding the originating island.

Play out some scenrio's, what issues could this cause?

I dont think this game should be designed to make it almost mandatory to travel form island to island in search of mineral fields. the transport system does not support it.

No, moving from Island to Island wouldn't be mandatory.

Corp A mines 300M titan on a gamma Island, that ore 'reserve' is distributed out to all the other islands

Meanwhile, solo Miner on Alpha II is mining 100M Units of titan, which is also distrubuted back out. Some portion of that 100M will respawn on the gamma island.

The same holds for Epi, only the reserves move between beta and gamma only; and colixium between gamma only.

See?

As long as there are OTHER players/corps mining, no Island will ever be completely without resources. And because it fills from the 'lowest to highest', even if you mine the island out completely, the next mining of that ore will cause it to respawn at your home island.

Worst case, a gamma corp mines out all the colixum, and there are no other gamma mining operations going on. That corp will than have to go out and mine another island, BUT for each unit they mine away, another unit will spawn on their base island.


Devs should add in a configurable respawn delay timer though, so that some time pressure constraints can be added .... which leads to:

Unless there's some change in mining, there's absolutely no reason to add new haulers or new miners. All a 5000U hauler will do is let corps gather more ore faster, without any upper limit. As I said, I'm all for faster mining and more hauling, but only to reduce the time spent actually mining/hauling, not to increase the daily volume of an already over mined system.

114 Reply by Martha Stuart (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-06-19 18:42:23)

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Re: Ore relocation

I just meant that if I am going to have to go ninja mine in hostile territory on a regular basis I want a HUGE hauler that can be tanked to high hell.  I don't want some lone assbot to roll in and be able to kill a massive hauler, like the way they can with scarabs.  Yes, yes, these mining operations will be defended, but if a lone wolf goes for the scarab and is willing to lose his bot, he/she will most likely get the kill before the defensive forces can kill the assbot or whatever bot he/she uses.

i'm not demanding a new hauler, i'm just saying that if mining in hostile territory becomes the norm, the bots and equipment we have now are not sufficient.

edit:  and a bigger hauler != more yield.  it means you can haul faster, which has nothing to do with yeild.  if you can mine 5000U of epri in a day, making a 5000U hauler doesn't mean you can mine more epri, it just means you only need to make 1 trip to haul your can when finished.

115 Reply by Arga

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Re: Ore relocation

Martha Stuart wrote:

I just meant that if I am going to have to go ninja mine in hostile territory on a regular basis I want a HUGE hauler that can be tanked to high hell.  I don't want some lone assbot to roll in and be able to kill a massive hauler, like the way they can with scarabs.  Yes, yes, these mining operations will be defended, but if a lone wolf goes for the scarab and is willing to lose his bot, he/she will most likely get the kill before the defensive forces can kill the assbot or whatever bot he/she uses.

i'm not demanding a new hauler, i'm just saying that if mining in hostile territory becomes the norm, the bots and equipment we have now are not sufficient.

edit:  and a bigger hauler != more yield.  it means you can haul faster, which has nothing to do with yeild.  if you can mine 5000U of epri in a day, making a 5000U hauler doesn't mean you can mine more epri, it just means you only need to make 1 trip to haul your can when finished.

This is what I'm saying too, if this change makes it so large operations have to go into hostile territory, that is a valid reason to expect the devs to create better, faster, bigger stuff; like haulers and miners.

It will be hard to convince devs for more cargo and more defensability, not that it shouldn't be that way, but it's going to need a solid arguement to convince them.

116 Reply by Tux

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Re: Ore relocation

Arga wrote:
Martha Stuart wrote:

I just meant that if I am going to have to go ninja mine in hostile territory on a regular basis I want a HUGE hauler that can be tanked to high hell.  I don't want some lone assbot to roll in and be able to kill a massive hauler, like the way they can with scarabs.  Yes, yes, these mining operations will be defended, but if a lone wolf goes for the scarab and is willing to lose his bot, he/she will most likely get the kill before the defensive forces can kill the assbot or whatever bot he/she uses.

i'm not demanding a new hauler, i'm just saying that if mining in hostile territory becomes the norm, the bots and equipment we have now are not sufficient.

edit:  and a bigger hauler != more yield.  it means you can haul faster, which has nothing to do with yeild.  if you can mine 5000U of epri in a day, making a 5000U hauler doesn't mean you can mine more epri, it just means you only need to make 1 trip to haul your can when finished.

This is what I'm saying too, if this change makes it so large operations have to go into hostile territory, that is a valid reason to expect the devs to create better, faster, bigger stuff; like haulers and miners.

It will be hard to convince devs for more cargo and more defensability, not that it shouldn't be that way, but it's going to need a solid arguement to convince them.


So this leads us to : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a8pI65emDE

With out doing new bots and the revisions at the same time it will break the system .. just as i stated before you are asking the Devs to do much more than just re allocate minerals to other islands.

Would Zooms purposed mining changes be good ? ONLY IF other improvements are made at the same time  because just redoing mineral allocation will not work, you  have new bots.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

117 Reply by Arga

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Re: Ore relocation

Tux wrote:
Arga wrote:
Martha Stuart wrote:

I just meant that if I am going to have to go ninja mine in hostile territory on a regular basis I want a HUGE hauler that can be tanked to high hell.  I don't want some lone assbot to roll in and be able to kill a massive hauler, like the way they can with scarabs.  Yes, yes, these mining operations will be defended, but if a lone wolf goes for the scarab and is willing to lose his bot, he/she will most likely get the kill before the defensive forces can kill the assbot or whatever bot he/she uses.

i'm not demanding a new hauler, i'm just saying that if mining in hostile territory becomes the norm, the bots and equipment we have now are not sufficient.

edit:  and a bigger hauler != more yield.  it means you can haul faster, which has nothing to do with yeild.  if you can mine 5000U of epri in a day, making a 5000U hauler doesn't mean you can mine more epri, it just means you only need to make 1 trip to haul your can when finished.

This is what I'm saying too, if this change makes it so large operations have to go into hostile territory, that is a valid reason to expect the devs to create better, faster, bigger stuff; like haulers and miners.

It will be hard to convince devs for more cargo and more defensability, not that it shouldn't be that way, but it's going to need a solid arguement to convince them.


So this leads us to : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a8pI65emDE

With out doing new bots and the revisions at the same time it will break the system .. just as i stated before you are asking the Devs to do much more than just re allocate minerals to other islands.

Would Zooms purposed mining changes be good ? ONLY IF other improvements are made at the same time  because just redoing mineral allocation will not work, you  have new bots.

Nope.

While this change lays the ground work to need those bots, there's simply not enough players or competition to require the useage of new bots. The ore change needs to be made now so that it's 'standard' for the new players when they come in.

When there is competition for ore THAN would be the time to implement the new bots. Without the ore change, there will NEVER be enough competition to warrent the release of new mining/hauling bots.

118 Reply by Tux

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Re: Ore relocation

competition should be in the market (player made) not mining resources (game mechanic)

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

119 Reply by Arga

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Re: Ore relocation

unlimited resources doesn't allow for market competition, since the corps with the largest demands can not only satisfy those demands, but generate extra supply which solo players could never hope to compete with.

If gamma corps mines out Titan, they would be more willing to buy it from alpha miner (not that they would, it would just be an incentive) than if they NEVER run out.

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Re: Ore relocation

I generally against this idea for this simple reason: You get penalized for mining on your own island and in return, you enemy/neighbour gets randomly rewarded.

My ideal mechanics would be to get rewarded the more you mine, but still get this 'infinite resource delay' needed.

So my idea goes something like this:

All islands will start with Titan and HDT available as you actively mine these 'low level' resources and a certain low threshold is reached islands start spawning 'higher' level ores, with epriton and colixuim at the top, so you would need to mine a lot of the alpha ores to get to epriton or colixium.


Maybe something like this with separated respawn for liquid and ores ( figures are an example)


Ores:
2x titan fields consumed->2xrandom racial spawns consumed->1 Colixium field spawns (gamma only)


Liquid:
2x HDT Fields consumed->1x Liquizit consumed->Epriton field spawns (beta and gamma only)


Improvement of this system:

Vets will never alpha mine, if they want to actively live in gamma or beta they will want to spawn the high end resources.

Those that actively mine resources most will get rewarded.

Creates an excess of alpha resources mined, would need to be traded activating the market.

Never feel dumb for mining low level resources on beta or gamma, because now there is a reward.

Creates a timing delay needed for mining.

RIP PERPETUUM

121 Reply by Martha Stuart (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-06-20 18:43:08)

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Re: Ore relocation

Arga wrote:

unlimited resources doesn't allow for market competition, since the corps with the largest demands can not only satisfy those demands, but generate extra supply which solo players could never hope to compete with.

If gamma corps mines out Titan, they would be more willing to buy it from alpha miner (not that they would, it would just be an incentive) than if they NEVER run out.

I beg to differ, during the first 5-6 months of STC's existence I was one of 3 producers.  I supplied the Entire corp with bots.  The other 2 producers supplied mods.  When we first started we were one of the largest active corps in the game.  I mined all the mats, and so did the other producers.  We also had *** mat efficiency skills too.  Mining/Production is one of the last remaining areas where you can work as hard/little as you want and are directly rewarded by the amount of work you put in (with no random chance effects, such as drop rates, hit rates, % chance of getting decent stuff in artifacts, etc, etc).  solo miner/producers can succeed in this arena, you just need to skill for it.

You are correct in the fact that real world economics don't always apply to a system with infinite resources.  BUT supply and demand, market equilibrium, resource availability, time, and other factors do apply to this system and these factors will always play a roll.  These factors also drive market prices.  I agree with Tux, the market is where the competition should be.  When you rely on a computer system to provide artificial competition it always comes down to the algorithm and how best to "game the system".  When its player driven it then becomes survival of the cleverest. 

Yes people will buy titan.  I personally can't stand mining titan, so I usually buy it in large quantities(there are others who do the same).  If PVP gets going again, there will be even more demand for materials.  This games problems stem from not enough people.   Most people would be surprised how many "problems" disappeared over night with a decent population.

Edit:  I alpha mine all the time.  its where i get all of my HDT and liqui.

122 Reply by Arga

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Re: Ore relocation

I mixed my messages here, my bad.

The ore change is not intended to do anything directly to market competition. It could have some effect on it, but the main effect should be on LARGE corps mining billions of units of ores (yes, Billions).

Grats to Tux for almost derailing the main issue though smile

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Re: Ore relocation

Arga wrote:

I mixed my messages here, my bad.

main effect should be on LARGE corps mining billions of units of ores (yes, Billions).

So now your against co-operative group play, and people banning together?

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle
Scarab Kill Count - 13
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Re: Ore relocation

This is starting to sound like a "Please change the ore mechanic so STC/Nebs doesn't continue to stockpile ore while we don't play the game" thread.....

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

125 Reply by Arga

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Re: Ore relocation

"Main effect" does not mean "massive effect".

As I've restated numerous times in this thread, run some though experiments yourself to see where the change will impact.

In the short term, with so few players, I doubt the change will really have much of any change to STC/NEBS. Other than maybe having to mine on (2) Islands to bounce the ores back and forth, but even then it would probably just be colixum... but that's just best guess since I have no idea who, how, or where anyone is currently mining.