Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Celebro wrote:
Arga wrote:

6 for 1 sale on Karma (pronounced Comma).

Arga, stop slacking and post one of your wall-o-text tongue

I still remember our discussion a year ago or so about research changes. It was somewhere along these lines of changes that are about to happen. You where concerned about how much easier getting a to a specific top tier module would be, that's why I think now, that adding EP into the knowledge base will balance this out Nicely.

I like the direction this is going with balance.

Everyone in PIE wanted to get their research maxed out, it's sort of the unmbrella personal goal for all producers.

With the current system, I did feel like it was balanced OK for completing the tech tree, but it was also nearly impossible for solo/small group players to get all through small and into medium T4 which is where most of the demand was/is.

It should STILL be a long haul to get all T4 for any solo player, but the upside is now a producer can concentrate on a specific tree and possibly 2 or 3 trees done in a year; building on the NIC they get with the first tree to fund buying research points for the rest.

There are already LOT of reserach out there that's going to turn into RP, so existing corps that had all T4 done are still going to be sitting good, if the players donate those points to the corp. If they want to keep those points to max out the trees, then they are likely to run into EP issues with the extensions; that is the limitations that solo players SHOULD be running into.

As Zoom says, there's incentives for producers to keep some research for themselves, as it will increase the factory specs of the mass runs. So no single Prototyper should donate all their RP to the corp, but they should also not horde it all to try to get all (7) trees complete. Conceptually, if mulitple prototypers dontate a portion of their RP to the corp, the corp should have enough RP to learn all (7) trees, and than the individual PT's produce from the 2-3 (more or less depending on thier advancement) trees that they kept the RP for / and spend the EP on.

Dynamically, what's likely to happen out of the patch, is most players spending RP/EP on T4 weapons/T4 Mining trees, since these were the hardest to get in the old system; and likely that markte will be oversaturated by mid-level prototypers that have been working for years and are 'almost' there. Of course materials will still limit the volume and pricing of those items on a mass scale, but there will be a lot more players that can prototype them. This could actually make the PT market viable however...

For those that think the new RP system is going to be somekind of 'easy' mode, remember that the total amount of RP needed to fill out all (7) trees is likely to be adjusted to similar levels of kernels; including the 1000's of wasted kernels that were lost due to the old process.

Everyone wants the system to be easier to max, but in the long run that won't benefit anyone, it is and is likely to remain a costly and time intensive process to get mulitple tech trees complete. But the system is better now, because players can choose exactly where they want it to go, with a reasonable expectation of when they will reach it.

77

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

@ Arga,
I agree with some of your points although I for one dont want the system to be easy, it should take a very long time to maxx out all of the trees and it took people a long time to do it. the game would not be fun or challenging if you could do it in 3 to 6 months. there needs to equity in the current system translated to the new one.

The way the purposed Ep additions for the new system are designed by adding in the enabler extensions needs to be carefully thought out while it is a great idea  for a bran new system bringing it in at this point causes lots of pain for people who already maxed research & production skills and went on to do other things with their EP.

Should the devs tell players to always have 250K+ Ep on hand in case a redesign of something is needed? This leads me to think that the DEVS will also rewrite the EP needs for (current) Bots when MK3 or higher comes in, or when other (non MK3) new bots are introduced to "balance" the new with the old.

Production has for as long as i can remember been based on how hard you work at it. The harder you work the more benefit you get from it. The way the purposed changes are, they will make it so you not only have to work really hard to be good at production but you have to be in the game a long time (gathering EP) to have access to the upper tier items.

New Corps / players no matter how hard they work will be limited to specific time lines on how fast they will be able to complete research trees and have access to prototype the items in them if the enabler extensions are used. In a corp of 7 people all focusing on one tree each they will only be able to complete it so fast, (assuming they do nothing but spend EP on enabler extensions) which is unrealistic.

^^^ this will make the divide between vets and new players even wider because im sure all of the vet corps have characters with 500K+ unspent EP just waiting for something to warrant using it.   

when adding in NEW systems , robots, items, etc is is expected and almost a given that there will be NEW Ep requirements to use the new items. While the new system is very much needed careful attention needs to be paid to how it will really effect production as a whole.

Ep reallocation is I think needed in this case because it is such a massive change. I have the Ep banked to weather this storm but i am thinking about the other guy who doesnt.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Production has for as long as i can remember been based on how hard you work at it. The harder you work the more benefit you get from it. The way the purposed changes are, they will make it so you not only have to work really hard to be good at production but you have to be in the game a long time (gathering EP) to have access to the upper tier items.

This is may be true to access the upper tiers of ALL (7) trees...

But this also brings up an interesting point, everytime an account reset was offered, 99.999999% of the Prototypers could not take advantage of it, because reseting would wipe out all the kernels they had consumed.

There has never been an EP reset, only account resets. Even with the new system PT's could not take advantage of an account reset to get thier EP back, unless they transferred all the RP to the corp before resetting.

I think it's about time that prototypers got some sort of an EP reset, which would solve the one major drawback that Tux points out, which is existing PT's not having the EP to get back to their current levels; while maintaining EP as a significant gating system.

If RP is like EP, and persists through an account reset, then Reset's would be OK. If not, then there would need to be some type of EP reset. EP reset is more problematic, because it allows players to maintain all faction standings, ect ect.

I don't see an easy path here, there have probably been too many account resets already, but again Prototypers have not been able to take advantage of any of them; and I don't doubt there would be a large sheet-storm if only PT's got EP resets.

79

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

I don't see an easy path here, there have probably been too many account resets already, but again Prototypers have not been able to take advantage of any of them; and I don't doubt there would be a large sheet-storm if only PT's got EP resets.

Allow down-grading extensions up to level 10 ..

this is already in place, but limited to accounts for accounts less than 30 days old and for lower levels

Just allow the same thing for all accounts after patch but for all skills not just 7 or lower and allow 1 to 4 down grades a day for 30 days... this will allow prototypers to reallocate EP for the new system.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Tux wrote:

I don't see an easy path here, there have probably been too many account resets already, but again Prototypers have not been able to take advantage of any of them; and I don't doubt there would be a large sheet-storm if only PT's got EP resets.

Allow down-grading extensions up to level 10 ..

this is already in place, but limited to accounts for accounts less than 30 days old and for lower levels

Just allow the same thing for all accounts after patch but for all skills not just 7 or lower and allow 1 to 4 down grades a day for 30 days... this will allow prototypers to reallocate EP for the new system.

That's a possiblity, it seems like a lot of administrative overhead; is it 30 days from the patch which we know it can do, or 30 days from account reactivation, which it may not, and need to be petitioned. Can they also target certain accounts to allow from level10, or do they by default have to give everyone 30 days of skill level 10 reduction.

*shrug* Glad I don't have to make this decision wink

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Two cents from the liver hating society:

I'm totally behind you on EP requirements for prototypers.  Preferably a Lvl 8 skill and I totally think X10 kernels on a corp side is too small,  I think it should be X25 for non EP CEO corp research or if you add in EP requirements for CEOs then X20 should be enough.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Ville wrote:

Two cents from the liver hating society:

I'm totally behind you on EP requirements for prototypers.  Preferably a Lvl 8 skill and I totally think X10 kernels on a corp side is too small,  I think it should be X25 for non EP CEO corp research or if you add in EP requirements for CEOs then X20 should be enough.


Translation: I'm playing another game.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Nah bro you want an easy mode " I win" button, I want more like Korean style MMO.  Besides it would be nice seeing some people grinding on Alpha and trading on the market.  And let's all be honest, raise your hand if you've been hording thousands of kernals of all faction since the announcement......................o/  Or in zigzag's case,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,wassup?

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

With downgrade tokens, I think, it can be also linked to industrial extensions only - then there will be no difference when to start those 30 days.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

After some thought I have to agree with Ville, X10 is definitely too small and should be X50 at least. That way our beloved hungryans can be fed for another year at least. smile

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Syndic wrote:

After some thought I have to agree with Ville, X10 is definitely too small and should be X50 at least. That way our beloved hungryans can be fed for another year at least. smile

This is more realistic.  X 50 is enough to keep even the hardcore corps busy.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

With the possibilities for exploits and abuse of the prototyping system for corporations I'm not sure if X50 is enough tbh.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

88

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Ville wrote:
Syndic wrote:

After some thought I have to agree with Ville, X10 is definitely too small and should be X50 at least. That way our beloved hungryans can be fed for another year at least. smile

This is more realistic.  X 50 is enough to keep even the hardcore corps busy.

HAHAHAA wow I couldn't stop laughing for a good long while after I read this ...

x25 or x50 will ensure that zero corps use this system....

Even at x10 its debatable for its value compared to just  using the system as it is now and asking your buddy to make you a prototype.

This new system should be viable (x25 & x50 is not) for all corps and not just those that have nothing better to do than grind beacons until their eyes bleed.

The new Corporation Knowledge Base should not be a "trophy status symbol" that only the top 2, 3 or 4 corps have, it needs to be a working part of a corporation. x4 ,x5 even x8 would be more than sufficient to keep people working at completing the knowledge base.

For the little bit of production bonus it will give you in the end many will not even start it if it costs more than x10.

When corps start out they will have to determine if the system will benefit them in any way over doing personal research. If 25 to 50 people in a corp can each have a full knowledge base instead of the corp having 1 complete knowledge base something is broken.   

I question why either of you two think such a high corp multiplier is good for the game?
Just for the grind?

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

89 (edited by Syndic 2013-05-07 16:44:34)

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

I would even say it should require at least 500k EP invested in RP-gating extensions before people are able to craft T4 gear.

So 100k for T2 gear, 250k for T3 gear, and 500k for T4 gear.

And only if you exclusively focus on a certain race, Gamma buildings should have a X20 difficulty modifier.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

90 (edited by zigZag 2013-05-07 17:19:39)

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Ville:::::::you have my back,,,.

I have to make a confession.  In another game, far, far, away.  I discovered that commas and periods.....drove EUssss crazy.  It is a writing style that is hard to break today.  Players from the frozen north are especially prone to grammore errors that were pounded into their heads.  It is also bait.  Using questionable page form brings out those that profess ignorance of the writer, based on grammire. I will ttry to respect the audience and attempt to conform.  But i will have lapses,,,so forgive me in advance. 

Some say its prophecy, i say its deja vu.  Either way cause and effect are obscured with "I believe" or a absolute statement based on conjecture. If we do the same thing over and over and expect a different outcome.  That can be labeled as insanity.  Thank you Albert Einstein. 

Adding layers of grind to a existing game is not "the end".

Putting control of critical elements of the game in a few hands,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is.

A qualified officer of a Corp has to assign the title to a member of the corp to direct prototyping.  Then all the corp kernels, and RPs (if they are transferable) are then shoveled to them.  If they decide to quit, what happens?  If they decide to make another corp, what happens? 

The lvl of Bureaucracy in a sandbox game is getting out of hand. Layer on top on layer.  Why.  I will try to be prophetic and declare that......both the bot prototyping and the research extensions were submitted by a player with a specific agenda.  With a predicted outcome of specialization in the market. When "control" of the market is said players agenda.  Narrowing of roles in the game to exclude players because of bureaucratic decisions,, does not benefit "players"....it just drives "players" away because of someones denial of access to content.

The market is empty.  Alis its "broke".  This patch will take a hammer to the big pieces and pound them into power.
Faster access to tech will enable "new" players faster access to content.  With the life span of past players being around a year.  The progression for a successful game has to be based on this life span...

Existing players are a resource.  That the devs should exploit.  Existing players are grinders, so any advice from them should be adjusted for this fact.  Devs should be educated to agendas that players propose. I was kinda hoping the Beta was over...and the devs had a handle on the future of the game...

And i do have a agenda, a game style, but i am playing the game, and having allot of fun.. If the patch is dropped on my head, i wont quit. I will adjust the best i can.  And i do hope the game matures to a healthy population.

PS
A clear example of disconnect or deceit.  Is the assumption that players are saving kernels for the patch.  Players that know the CEO is not going to let them access the prototyping future of the game.....are grinding kernels to make protos       now.  Before they are locked out of research after the patch.  With history telling us that Corps lock up higher tech,,,and restrict access, some are trying to cover their assessessess...

Happy Trails.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Syndic wrote:

I would even say it should require at least 500k EP invested in RP-gating extensions before people are able to craft T4 gear.

So 100k for T2 gear, 250k for T3 gear, and 500k for T4 gear.

And only if you exclusively focus on a certain race, Gamma buildings should have a X20 difficulty modifier.

I think I missed the multiplier portion, but yes, corporations should require more points to be spent per tech advancement.

The main reason is that this tech is persistant, well more persistant then a player anyway. Once a corporation has learned a tech, they never have to repeat it, regardless of how people come and go. That kind of stability has to come at a price. Additionally, or again, its a player base issue. Configuring Corp multipliers on current sizes, 2 to 10 players, ignores how effective 200 or 300 + corps will be.

Research was never easy. While I agree that this change shouldn't wipe out the effort existing PT's tech, it also shouldn't be seen as a change to make research quicker; apparently grind and time are the only tools Perp has for making things hard, so this should be expected as how the difficutly of getting tech will remain.

If anyone can think of a better way to keep research challenging, without making it grindy (i.e. large multiplier), we're all ears.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

zigZag wrote:

A clear example of disconnect or deceit.  Is the assumption that players are saving kernels for the patch.  Players that know the CEO is not going to let them access the prototyping future of the game.....are grinding kernels to make protos       now.  Before they are locked out of research after the patch.  With history telling us that Corps lock up higher tech,,,and restrict access, some are trying to cover their assessessess...

Happy Trails.

I don't think that's how it works.

Players will have all the RP. They have to donate the RP to the corp. I'm not sure if the corp can eat kernels directly, but certainly the CEO will be able to eat them and donate the RPs.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

@Tux your still missing the point.  Research never was and Never is designed to be an 'instant' gratification in this game.  I know I'll use corp research no matter what the cost because it eliminates waiting on a prototypers to login and check the folder.  Also EP investments are midigated through corp research.  This system needs to be in place for a sustainable population, not just the 50 fan boys holding onto a dream.  And God forbid we have to come out from behind our gamma walls and lines of turrets to trade some tech with one another.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Or just get on a ship and sail the high seas lookin for booty, pillage and ***! lol

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Tux, you be trolled!

There are no EP and RP requirements to polish swords and kill orcs.

And Ville on the off chance in your troll you actually have a valid point and belief in not making things easy, I completely agree. When I joined I had an Arby vapourized by a Roaming Kain Observer outside of ICS A ... That did not discourage me, it encouraged me! Make the game more challenging by far! Orange spawns .... Ghey! Remove. Noobs gonna learn and appreciate, by dying. But hard mode doesnt = unattainable.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

To craft a quality sword you need approximately 20k EP so you're wrong. lol

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

See this is what's wrong with your entire Corporation, you think I'm trolling 100% of the time, and its far from it.  Unless Xad posts, then it turns into trolling.  I just enjoy the pure rage that flows from his posts.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Ville wrote:

See this is what's wrong with your entire Corporation, you think I'm trolling 100% of the time, and its far from it.  Unless Xad posts, then it turns into trolling.  I just enjoy the pure rage that flows from his posts.

Its 105%, 80% of the time, by my calcuations.

99

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Ville wrote:

I know I'll use corp research no matter what the cost because it eliminates waiting on a prototypers to login and check the folder.

You will be able to finish your personal production many times over before the corp your in does with an x50 multiplier so there will be no reason for you to use the non existent corp research knowledge base. 

Ville wrote:

This system needs to be in place for a sustainable population, not just the 50 fan boys holding onto a dream.   another.


People will come to the game and expect to grind .. and grind they will ... don't forget the amount of kernels will still be very high to complete research

I dont see anyone saying it is positive for the game for new features of the game to be implement that are broken from the onset. x25 & x50 corp multipliers are broken

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

But with an X25 or X50 multiplier it would be an extra incentive for people to grind harder and longer so the devs would have time to implement more content. smile

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice