26 (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-05-03 17:43:21)

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Complexity is the multiplier that is added to the EP requirment for the next level.  ie  how fast the EP increases for the next level of said skill.  Long range targeting for example is relatively cheap to max out.  Spec Ops skill is a level 9 skill (I think)  and it it requires huge amounts of EP to max out.  So if the proto skills are fairly low level it wont be to bad.  If they are above level 5 then its going to be a massive investment in EP. 

From my point of view this is not the way to do it.  Adding EP sinks into the game is the wrong way to go.  This just further increases the gap between new players and Vets.  If you want to go indy, it is already a daunting task to get a high level indy toon for just mining/production.  Now you are gonna add more EP requirements to add in protoing?  Not to mention the huge grind people are going to have to do just to get the kernels in the first place (Thanks to the beacon nerf)  Which the vets wont have to do, because they already have it done.

One of the biggest challenges STC faced in the beginning was getting good equipment.  We had to buy almost all of our equipment off of the market, which made it not only expensive, but also not reliable.  There is still a huge difference between a Vet rolling full T4 and a new player rolling full T4.  The new players need any and every advantage that they can get to even the playing field.  Making it that much harder for them to get the good equipment will just make it harder for them to PVP and lose equipment.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Syndic wrote:
Celebro wrote:
Syndic wrote:

So basically this makes all of us with full research pay 7-8 more months to get enough EP to invest in your new extensions to get where we already were? smile


Who said anything about 7-8 months of EP?. They haven't even decided on extension complexity. Such an important role should not be left barely on a grind, and research will become much easier to attain a specific t4 module.


Still would ask for the removal of the basic research extension with an EP refund. This extension should be at lvl 10 anyways so there is no point in keeping it.

Whats research skill complexity? How will it translate to needing 6-7 specific research tree skills maxed? How much extra EP will be needed? Heliaso pointed up there already a scenario (unlikely though it might be).

Heliaso pointed out a worst case scenario, it should not be that high and it won't because the Devs want to give room for advanced research.  Breaking it up in to different extensions gives newer corps more players to share a branch of the tech trees, not have all your eggs on one basket sort of speak.

The corporation research thing is highly debatable though with the sole control of its CEO, might as well assign RP directly to the prototyper.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Well Since while zoom is running around the bush so to speak, here is the answer, youll be given rp equal to what you already have to spend on the new system. BUT you will have to have the ep to but into the tiers. So if you dont have the ep you wont be able to produce what you can now.

"So what will happen to your current knowledgebase when this gets into the game? Well it will be wiped of course and you’ll have to start over, ha-ha. Nah, I’m just kidding, once we figure the exact RP value of every item in the new technology tree, we can give you the matching amount of RP for your actual knowledge, so you can basically rebuild your knowledgebase from scratch. Now, we can’t guarantee that you’ll have the same amount of “raw research value” after that, but I’m sure that being able to select specific technologies to research will mostly provide you with a better result overall. We still have to figure out what happens to unresearched kernels, so we’ll get back to that.

This is why i call for a EP RESET,

29 (edited by Celebro 2013-05-03 18:03:15)

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Highly researched agents will be better of in the new system. They can specialize on what they need avoiding t4 chasis scanner and some other stuff.

New players will have an easier grind selecting what they need and assigning other corp mates to different tech trees. EP sinks give Devs more control over this knowledge grind too, when it comes to adding more tech goodies.


Research should be more than just a grind and it should be hard to accomplish, and this is a buff to the randomness of the present research system, adding the extensions makes sense, people are just looking for their interest.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

If I'm following correctly, and I admittedly am not following as closely as I once did, the new Extensions are going to be required for both Prototyping and Factory characters.

PT is going to NEED them to open up research so they can craft the proto, and factory is going to need them to reduce mat/time cost.

However, it also feels like it is not a bad idea to have a higher complexity (but I'm open to counter-arguements), if the corp tech isn't limited by a single player.

The entire concept of the new tree is so solo players can concentrate on a specific branch of the tree and reach T4 without having to learn everything, and not having to spend billions of NIC on kernels on 'wasted tech'. Same thing with EP, it should take a long time for a solo player to open up all the tech trees.

That said, the same should NOT Be true with corporations. There should not be EP gating for the corporation Tech tree.

I don't have time to think of all the details, but conceptually, a corporation should be able to leverate ALL the prototypers in their corp to bring the Corp Tech tree up. If they only have 1, than it's going to be similar to a solo player, but if they have 10 players each putting EP into sperate extensions, the Corp should be able to raise all it's tech to the max.

31 (edited by Celebro 2013-05-03 18:13:29)

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Arga wrote:

That said, the same should NOT Be true with corporations. There should not be EP gating for the corporation Tech tree.

Corporations don't hold EP, but anyways I do agree, on a second thought enabler extension should not cap research but cap the production of prototypes. Therefore, if a corp is fully researched any member will be able to prototype as long as you have the extensions necessary.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Celebro wrote:
Arga wrote:

That said, the same should NOT Be true with corporations. There should not be EP gating for the corporation Tech tree.

Corporations don't hold EP, but anyways I do agree, on a second thought enabler extension should not cap research but cap the production of prototypes. Therefore, if a corp is fully researched any member will be able to prototype as long as you have the extensions necessary.

Yeah, I think that's what I was trying to say, thanks.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Sooo what's the difference between...
* not being able to research due to lack of extensions and therefore not being able to prototype
versus
* having the knowledge but not being able to prototype due to lack of extensions?

I wouldn't worry too much about the extensions though, we call them enabler extensions for a reason.

34 (edited by Arga 2013-05-03 18:57:01)

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

DEV Zoom wrote:

Sooo what's the difference between...
* not being able to research due to lack of extensions and therefore not being able to prototype
versus
* having the knowledge but not being able to prototype due to lack of extensions?

I wouldn't worry too much about the extensions though, we call them enabler extensions for a reason.

What I was thinking is about sharing the load. Where you can have (8) players with max level skills in each of the trees, instead of needing to have (1) player spend all EP in all trees.

Edit: (7) players

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

I think I have hinted this already but then I'd like to make clear that we'll have a new corporation role, the research officer/manager. Players with this role will be able to spend corporation RP and research the corp knowledgebase, limited by their own extensions. So it won't be up to just the CEO.

Also just to repeat from an earlier blog, RP amounts in the corp knowledgebase will have a multiplier compared to the amounts in personal knowledgebases, they will be likely 10 times as much. Which means that researching the corporation knowledgebase will only start to have an advantage if you have more than 10 members who depend on the knowledgebase (prototypers/producers). (Not counting the lesser losses when research people leave the corporation of course.)

36 (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2013-05-03 19:47:25)

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

ok i had the time to take a closer look at the tech trees and here are some thoughts about the whole thing:

general i see a lot of good points but i think it can be improved.

atm the trees are simple forking trees. we only have one requirement for each skill. and sometimes they fork but never come back together.
i think it will be a good idea to have a couple more options here:
- have more then one requirement
- have either/or requirements
- have inter skilltree conections (few not too many)

the either/or connection could be used for example on the industrial tuning. this should not only be avalibe from the miner, but also from the harvester.
also the riveler should be linked to the miner and not to the tuning. just like the symbiont is linked to the harvester.

there would be quite a few good and logical sample for the inter techtree connections. ill combine this one even with the either/or option:
eccm would need besides the coprocessor connection also the ecm or the supressor.

quite a few more connections of that type could be made to make the whole thing a bit more intresting. of cource we dont want too many of thse links or we basicly have to research everything before we get anywhere.


what is a bit unlogical are the ammunition choices here. i see 2 possible aproaches here but non was followed to the end:
- first the ammo that is good vs your own race (incenary slug, ap missile, seismic cell)
- first ammo good vs enemy faction that also is the single dmg ammo (composite slugs, sonic missile, thermal cell)
second one is my personal preference logic wise. its more easy to make a kinetic weapon do kinetic dmg, more easy for a laser to do heat dmg ... that is the basic technology. adding a second effect is more difficult so that is the secondary ammunition later in the tech tree.

on one side i see the point that a corp database should be more expensive. but hell a single prototyper can produce enough for even a big corp. prototypes are not needed in the masses. my prototyper is idle most of the time. so where do you need 10 or more of them? yes we have low population atm, but even with a lot of players this factor 10 is way over the roof. if its more then factor 3 i doubt a lot corps will even build that database at all and with that a good feature in this game wated simple because its for most not worth doing so.


last but not least enabler extentions:
some numbers to bring in some facts. we have 6 different types of tech trees (i dont think we will see 2 common enable extentions, one for each tree)
with complexity 1 (level1-10) this will be 13500ep per extention = ~9,3d --- = 81000ep for all 6extentions = ~56d
with complexity 2 (level1-10) this will be 27000ep per extention = ~18,7d --- = 162000ep for all 6extentions = ~112,5d
with complexity 3 (level1-10) this will be 40500ep per extention = ~9,3d --- = 243000ep for all 6extentions = ~168,75d

i think that these numbers show quite wenn that anything besides complexity one will be through the roof. we have 6 extentions so this will add up to quite a bit.
a work around would be to lower some prototyping extentions costs and so have some more room for research. but on the downside high research ep costs will slow newer ppl down imensly so i dont think too much here is a good idea.

i might have forgotten something, but enough for now.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Zortarg:

When we started developing this we decided for the simplest way, a linear tree system with no multiple parents and stuff like that. It took enough time to build this even, and it would take a lot more if we changed our minds now, since we would need a completely different database structure.

The Riveler is linked to the mining upgrade because nothing is ever linked from a T4 item, and because Rivelers are usually equipped with at least one. The Symbiont would be linked from an upgrade too, if we would have a separate harvesting upgrade module, but we don't.

I'll look into the ammos though, I admit I simply followed their internal naming of A/B/C/D because I assumed that has some logic.

You're right about the low number of prototypers in a corp, however you have to consider that the corp knowledge base can be used through and by a lot of people as long as the corp exists, and that the production bonus plays a more important role than the ability to prototype.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

DEV Zoom wrote:

I think I have hinted this already but then I'd like to make clear that we'll have a new corporation role, the research officer/manager. Players with this role will be able to spend corporation RP and research the corp knowledgebase, limited by their own extensions. So it won't be up to just the CEO.

Also just to repeat from an earlier blog, RP amounts in the corp knowledgebase will have a multiplier compared to the amounts in personal knowledgebases, they will be likely 10 times as much. Which means that researching the corporation knowledgebase will only start to have an advantage if you have more than 10 members who depend on the knowledgebase (prototypers/producers). (Not counting the lesser losses when research people leave the corporation of course.)


So basically you are still designing the game for the population you dream of, not the population you have. neutral

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

DEV Zoom wrote:

When we started developing this we decided for the simplest way, a linear tree system with no multiple parents and stuff like that. It took enough time to build this even, and it would take a lot more if we changed our minds now, since we would need a completely different database structure.

i see your point. just a few ideas im happy with the linear as well. im just a friend of complex things.

DEV Zoom wrote:

The Riveler is linked to the mining upgrade because nothing is ever linked from a T4 item, and because Rivelers are usually equipped with at least one. The Symbiont would be linked from an upgrade too, if we would have a separate harvesting upgrade module, but we don't.

i stlil think same conditions should apply for mining and harvesting. so moving riveler to t3 med miner makes sense from my point of view. tunings could stand without any child as high end anyway.

DEV Zoom wrote:

You're right about the low number of prototypers in a corp, however you have to consider that the corp knowledge base can be used through and by a lot of people as long as the corp exists, and that the production bonus plays a more important role than the ability to prototype.

that surely is a point, but i think some ballancing should happen. a agrument for x4 could be made then tongue

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Tund Bungler wrote:

So basically you are still designing the game for the population you dream of, not the population you have. neutral

Pardon my bluntness, but the latter would be pretty stupid. What we have now is not sustainable forever.

Zortarg: we'll consider a lower multiplier. And I'd have to move things around for that Riveler move but it's doable of course.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

But .... where are the promised mountain sized mechs? sad

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

The sad reality is that most corporations have "+10 people" simply because 3 people have 3-4 accounts each.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

43 (edited by Tund Bungler 2013-05-04 01:30:45)

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Syndic wrote:

The sad reality is that most corporations have "+10 people" simply because 3 people have 3-4 accounts each.


Here is a list of all the corps with 10 human beings active in them:

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

So basically, you're saying that completing corp kb will need 4x-10x more rp than personal kb?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Line wrote:

So basically, you're saying that completing corp kb will need 4x-10x more rp than personal kb?

Yes, since all corp members can use it for prototyping without researching their own knowledgebase.

46 (edited by Syndic 2013-05-04 12:18:07)

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

So as CEO will I be able to limit and/or deny prototyping rights to the new guy who joined yesterday, or is it enough to get an alt in a maxed out corp and just leech prototypes? smile

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Syndic wrote:

So as CEO will I be able to limit and/or deny prototyping rights to the new guy who joined yesterday, or is it enough to get an alt in a maxed out corp and just leech prototypes? smile

I've been already thinking about whether we would need that, but sure, we could make it 2 new corp roles, one for researching and one for using that knowledge.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

My only concern is that I won't have everything researched in the new system that I do now.

Can you answer the basic question on a single player basis will the new system reduce the amount of researched items or will you have everything researched now that you did before the change?

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

The simple answer is that the system is quite different so there is no guarantee for it.

Re: New devblog: New tech trees

Would it not be possible to make all 100% stuff complete in the new system and then pool the incomplete points?

I can see much butthurt in the future