Neoxx wrote:

You can delete items, but they are saved in a 'recycle bin' of sorts for a period of time.  If you fill that space with new items, your old items will be deleted permanently.  This helps with 1) you cant mass delete items before death, 2) you can delete items if you want to loot other things, and 3) you cant carry more than your cargo capacity by deleting items then refilling your bot then just dying at your destination.

But your not giving up anything in exchange.

What I was suggesting was that by removing the ability for transport pilots to delete cargo, the PVP community is gaining guarnteed looting, but is losing nothing.

There are basically 3 professions, Combat, Gathering, and Industry. The ability to delete item is available to everyone, and is useful in situations other then just denying loot to pirates; option 2 of looting other items.

Changing the delete to a recycle bin helps only the combat profession when it allows them to recover looted items after destruction.

If there is going to be a balancing change, it should be offset with a negative. True some balance issues do not require an offset, but this really isn't a game breaking issue. There is nothing stopping a PVP bot from deleting those 2000 missles just before they die either (granted this probably doesn't happen as often as a Seq driver, but honestly before this post it never even occured to me to delete the cargo if I was being attacked).

I wasn't trolling when asking what you would give up for the ability, it was a real question. Would giving up the ability to cycle loot using delete be worth ensuring the occasional Seq kill dropped its full cargo?

Neoxx wrote:

Yes, scouting is incredibly easy right now and it needs to be fixed.  Arkhes are the main source of scouting, so something needs to be done about them NOW.  I dont care if people scout with intakts or other ewar bots, because theres at least some risk to them doing that.  If they f*ck up with an arkhe no one cares, but if they f*ck up with an intakt and die someones gonna notice.

I may be wrong here, but isn't that arguement a sliding scale?

When corps have 100's of billions of NIC and they industry lines that can produce intakts with the rounding errors on thier stored materials, then the agrument would be they really aren't risking anything by scouting with intakts, make them scout with named special ops bots that they will notice if lost?

even now I'm hearing corp mates talk about being able to lock targets over 400m away. I can only assume those distance will increase with EP and named tiered items.

At some point, having a basic Arkhe scouting isn't going to be effective, as they'll be targeted and one-shot from 1000+ meters, you'll need something with ECCM to prevent that. A dead scout tells no tales.

I also assume there will be stealthed bots, again the arkhe just won't have the power to mount the equipment it needs to counter that, even with the % bonuses from skilled pilots.

If in another month the starter ship is still an issue, than I'll sign the 'nerf the noob bot' petition.

Defending deleting is not the same as complaining about losing the load and the bot, the driver loses it either way.

I keep providing a solution to this issue that has nothing to do with reprogramming, but no one seems to address it; try social engineering the stuff out of the cargo hold. This is an MMO, and you have the ability to communicate to your victum. Carry your own container and tell them to fill it or die.

Comparing how this is handled to other games is just as poor an agrument as trying to find real life analogies. There are always other factors in the game that makes the mechanics different. For instance in eve you can warp away and deny your foe not only the non-deletable cargo but the kill too.

If your going to ask for this type of change, it would have to be global. That is not being able to delete cargo would be in effect for all bots. So when your cargo is full, and a really nice piece of loot drops, you can't delete something to make space.

If you're willing to accept the trade off of losing the ability to delete anything from cargo, then I will would have to support it. Making changes that specifially ONLY benefit pvp and not industry or mining is not balanced.

what are you willing to give up in exchange for being able to loot the cargo of transports?

Dropping fragments seems appropriate, the player bots are bascially just reverse engineered NPC bots, so there should be pieces of it left over.

Weapon X wrote:

Less complaining from all the sequer drivers would be nice also. If your on beta you risk losing ur stuff. Deal.

There's not a single post in here from the DRIVERS about losing stuff, its all from the PVP'ers complaining about losing the cargo because it gets deleted.

I like your solution though, Pirates... Deal, you heard it from Weapon X.

So my other suggestion about letting them drive away if they drop thier cargo is FULLY valid, because they will know if my hold isn't empty.

Don't be greedy, take the kill or the cargo, beside if you let them keep the Seq they will have something to haul more stuff to you in.

Siddy wrote:

By your logic: Why don't i haul a thermonuclear device and dead man switch while we are at it?
If i die, half the island will go with me!

+1 for this idea

If this does change, and transports can't drop cargo, I will just start driving around with empty Seq's and lol as the forums fill up with posts about how I'm exploiting something because pirates aren't finding any cargo loot when I die smile

Sorry, my response was snarkier than I had intended and definetly an extreme extrapolation.

There really isn't a lot of action being an industrialist, moving stuff around and controlling CT's is about the only challenge there is to this role.

Having the ability to assign production 'requests' to players is a good idea, taking out the material aspect leaves them with basically nothing to do.

Wait, so PVP'ers love the tears of Carebear industrialists when they blow us up and we complain in the forums about how mean they are... could it finally be payback? Are we carebears tough enough to feed off the tears of those poor pirates losing thier hard won cargo loot to the evil transport driver that deletes his load!

No, we are carebears and we sympathize with your loss. Please allow us to make this game more enjoyable for you by placing our cargo at your feet and thanking your for the pleasure of being killed by your awesome pvp skillz.

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(41 replies, posted in Services and Discussion)

As a buyer of goods, my suggestion is for you to practice what you preach, and go a solid 20% lower and than I will buy from you, but don't go just .01 lower please because than I may just buy from the guy above you.

Lets start the Scaleable UI threads now . I mean really, its been years in Eve without this feature. Maybe if we start now Dev's will realize its important.

If not scalable, let me adjust the font size!

The landmark window on the last intrusion was full screen and it still wasn't enough to fit everyone on the screen; even with the filter set to only show the enemy.

There are EP's that change the run times and number of runs you can have. If you dissassociate the factory from the person, you are essentially usurping the Agent skills for use by the corporation.

Yes, it would make it easier to coordinate, but so would putting all the corporation accounts under the control of the corporation and not even needing the player to login.

I say we expand this idea so the corporation can remotely control all the players robots too!

Set up a google docs spreadsheet and plan your runs in metagame and have your players login and follow the production schedule.

Sounds like you were rubber banding, which is a packet delay issue. Nothing to do with being teleported.

Not really a bug, but submit a ticket as you lost a bot in PVE, maybe they will replace it.... although I'm not sure they can tell if you really did rubberband or if you just lost an expensive bot farming and not paying attention to your armor level.

If they implement collision damage, please include collision insurance, I'm a terrible driver.

Maybe this game needs an Arena area, Battle Dome! 2, 3, and 5 Bot battles. No plants. No mines. Just mechs, missles, and mayham.

Each team pays an entry fee, winner take all (-10% NPC tax of course, more NIC sinks Dev!)

In fact, Life, we can set this up ourselves on the Island and keep the 10% tax for ourselves.

Back on topic...

Dev has already said deleting cargo is not an exploit.

This means your going to have to come up with a better reason than it denies you from getting the cargo. As I said before, if your target isn't 100% sure your going to kill them, they are not going to delete that expensive load.

This is no different than using tactics in combat to give you an advantage, and our opponent needing to negate that advantage. In this engagement, you are trying to get the cargo, and the seq is trying to prevent you from getting it.

In fact, sending them a tell about putting the cargo in a field container with the password and you'll let them go seems workable. Of course you're always free to blow them up afterwards if the cargo seems light, but again if word gets out you're just going to kill them anyway they'll get decline to give you the cargo.

Vorgrim, Please be sure to equip your bots with lots of good hardware for us to loot.

So you're going on a PVP roam on a beta Island with a Seq in tow, this doesn't seem like a good plan.

Please try this on our Island smile

The mechs have the items equipped, not in storage, they can't be deleted.

How are you going to move the pirated material?

I agree about the field containers being destructable, it gives the corp time to send out a kill party if they have one available.

Wait.. if I have 80U of material in my cargo, and you blow me up with a mech, at best your only going to be able to haul away a few U of it anyway; hardly enough to make it worth it if its materials, and if its a whole bot you'll need another Seq.

No corporation is going to use transports to move combat components anyway when a Mech can carry them and defend itself.

Killing transport is about denying the other corp that material, not about pirating.

If you want cool PVP stuff, kill other bots.

If something like this is implemented, it had better damn well work for the cargo driver too; That is if they delete thier cargo, and you don't kill them, then they can undelete it and continue on thier way.

Of course, drivers will delete/undelete and work the timer and if attacked just let it run out, and you still don't get your loot. So lets just leave it like it is.

The next counter to any inventory based thing, is to drop a field container; which you'll than ask to prevent drivers from dropping containers while in combat. And then drivers will come up with something else.

Ocean pirates had to deal with this same issue, throwing stuff over the side so no one can have it, or just smashing up the cargo.

The correct answer is for Pirates to go around almost killling cargo bots until drivers don't know if you are going to kill them or let them go, so they have to make a decision about deleting that 200 Million NIC load.

Its probably too late for people who have already applied thier EP's. Giving players 20,000 EP to start may be part of the problem, as it gives new players a lot of ammunition to screw up thier account before they know anything about the game.

Maybe the game could reduce the chance of screwing up everything out of the gate by unlocking account based EP after finishing each of the tutorials. Note, account based, so running the tutorial on alts would not grant more EP.

For example, you start with 2000 EP to spread around, to get a feel for how applying EP works, and another 18000 unlocked over 3 tutorials.

Or, you must complete the tutorial to unlock the full 20000 (but the account accumulates the 1 EP/Min as they run the tutorials so that time isn't 'wasted'. Before unlocking (applying the 20000 to the account), the player is given the option of 'going back to school' ONCE, and retrain with different Corps and schools, after they have seen how the different professions work; at a cost of 2880 EP, just to incorporate the existing alt deletion penalty.

Recap

New accounts are given 20000 EP.
The FIRST agent on the account to complete the tutorials 'unlocks' the 20000, either all at once or per tutorial.
Before accepting the 20000 EP, the player can choose to 'reroll' with a 2880 EP penalty.
The option to reroll is presented to the player until they 'unlock' the starter EP.

Optionally, the reroll penalty can be progressive, so 0 the first time, 880 the second, 2000 the third, and 2880 each subsequent reroll.

Existing players that have already applied 20000 EP, they must have acutally used all thier starter EP, can have the option of rerolling ONCE with a 2880 EP penalty.