76

(73 replies, posted in Balancing)

I agree with inda, and have said this before about the new tuning system.
I don't understand (outside of perhaps implementation issues) that you can't have a diminishing returns system, instead of exponential penalty system.

There is no reason to choose to adversely affect the accumulator, vs any other system on the robot.  Maybe they increase srf area, maybe they increase mass, maybe they eat exponentially more cpu or reactor...

So let's get back to WHY the tuning changes in the first place.
My understanding, and please let us know the true intent here Zoom, is that people were fitting all tunings for most every fit.   The diversity of fits for PVE and PVP was limited because the stacking of tunings for dps was so valuable.

The goal here is to limit the ability for players to fit many tunings of the same type. (?) Please confirm.

IF that is true. 
Why not just limit the number of the same type of tunings on a bot?
(like sensor amps, LWF, etc..)

How many? *** if I know... 3? Does that sound good?
No penalties, no weird *** ratios, a clear hierarchy from T1->T4, and max dps is capped and forces people to use empty head slots for other mods.

This way we can control the peak of the exponential curve of these modules, we get around the 'exploit' of using energy transfer to use the x^6 dps potential that some bots will have.  And the raw number ensures that the dps modifier from a bot with more headslots will not exceed that of another bot with fewer available headslots (the reign of the seth mk2 max-tunings is again thwarted.)

Please tell me why this is bad and will destroy the game.

Regardless, you get away from all the fussy balancing, and you can focus on raw dps potentials, and balance that.  Weapon systems are affected evenly (no base-accum to worry about).  Everyone is happy again.

77

(73 replies, posted in Balancing)

Thank you for math
+1

78

(73 replies, posted in Balancing)

Yes, but why do I have to ALSO pay more for Accum!
With zooms numbers from most recent post:

1(T2)+1(T3) = Accum: 1.365 Dmg: 1.43
1(T4)       = Accum: 1.55  Dmg 1.4

T2+T3 OUT PERFORMS T4 on both metrics, cost and benefit.

I'd take your argument if they were the same, but they aren't.  The incentive here is to use T2+T3s instead of T4's almost always because the rate-of-increase.
So for a high dps fit, you would almost always do T2 because the ratio is better and you can get higher DPS with a usable accum cost, whereas the higher-end modules can't get you that dps without nuking your accum.
Maybe if this is the balance-point, make T4 x1.365 on accum (and T4+).

And I do not buy your argument that costing 1 less T1/T2 in production matches the material/cost/process-time/research embedded in the T4 to begin with.



Zoom: Yes, but higher damage with unusable costs.  I want to fit T4 to be better than a fit with T3s or T2s, because they cost more.  If they all cost the same and were made of assortments and different but roughly equal bits of materials, then I would not care; more variety of fitting strategies here makes sense.
But if T4 costs more in time/material/nic/research etc.  and underperforms, what happens to T4 modules?  Who uses them? ever?
The base accum cost of 1 module is so high on some weapon systems 1 T4+ is killing the accum, hell even T4 and T3. 
Again, we haven't even broached the subject of the weapons systems base accum cost, and how these multipliers are not in the ball-park to accommodate EM or laser weapons.


Listen, I play the game.  I am saying what I'd like to see.  I have concerns about fit diversity, PVP and PVE, and what that experience is like, because I experience it.  But I also have concerns about how valuable tech levels of modules are because I am engaged in the material economy and experience this as well.  These things all factor into my pitch on this issue.  Yes, its hard to argue about an economy that doesn't exist, but if you design the game around the way its being played now, it will be completely rekt if anyone else begins coming back to abuse the system.

*** it, ship it, get the new bots in the game and breath some life back into it.  As I posted previously, I don't understand why all this balancing and new bots have to be lumped together in one big patch, considering it should be -iterated- upon just like you said it would in the Blog post that was advertising the incremental development and release schedule.

79

(73 replies, posted in Balancing)

Ok.  Let's see these numbers now applied to stacked tunings.
Zoom's numbers on stacked modules (weapon tunings)

Accum
# Mods:   1x     2x     3x     4x     5x     6x
T1        1.1    1.21   1.33   1.46   1.61   1.77
T2        1.05   1.1    1.16   1.22   1.28   1.34
T3        1.3    1.69   2.2    2.9    3.7    4.83
T4        1.55   2.4    3.72   5.77   8.95   13.88
T4+       1.7    2.9    4.9    8.35   14.2   24.14
Damage
# Mods:   1x     2x     3x     4x     5x     6x
T1        1.1    1.21   1.33   1.46   1.61   1.77
T2        1.1    1.21   1.33   1.46   1.61   1.77
T3        1.3    1.69   2.2    2.9    3.7    4.83
T4        1.4    1.96   2.74   3.84   5.38   7.53
T4+       1.5    2.25   3.38   5.06   7.6    11.4

Some case studies:
Let's assume a bot will have an unstable accum with weapons drawing 2x accum.
This bot could fit:
6 T1's, or 2 T3's, or 1 T4 or 1 T4+
This would achieve dmg increases of:
1.77, 2.2, 1.4, or 1.5
If I want to get the T4 fit or the T4+ fit to perform better, I am looking at accum cost of 3x!

That doesn't make a lick of sense. 

Why would people bother buying T4+ or making T4 if they are less useful than T3?  I must protest this.

T4 should be better in most cases 1:1 vs other module tech levels.  So too with T4+.
If T4 is literally made of all the tech levels below, and if T4+ is going to continue costing a ***, then they should be superior.  My post was about making T1, T2, and T3 just usable, but not better than T4. 
It seems this is an over-correction.

What would make more sense is that if we could begin discussing how much raw damage multiplication a bot should get with any configuration of head slots before some critical accumulator threshold. 

Let's instead frame this around the end-results of the stacking and how they play out, as with the chart above.

Let's say 2.0x accum is the breaking point for weapon tunings, where bots will be unstable (NOTE: this is not true for all weapon types, and certainly not all bots...)
So using this as a tipping point, we can calibrate the ideal fit, with the accumulator penalty as-stacked and resultant damage modification, as-stacked.

A proposed framework (weapon tunings)

Accum
# Mods:   1x     2x     3x     4x     5x     6x
T1        -.-    -.-    -.-    -.-    <2     2.0
T3        -.-    -.-    -.-    <2     2.0    >2
T4        -.-    -.-    <2     2.0    >2     -.-
T4+       -.-    <2     2.0    >2     -.-    -.-
Damage
# Mods:   1x     2x     3x     4x     5x     6x
T1        -.-    -.-    -.-    -.-    <1.5   1.5
T3        -.-    -.-    -.-    <1.75  1.75   >1.75
T4        -.-    -.-    <2     2.0    >2     -.-
T4+       -.-    <2.25  2.25   >2.25  -.-    -.-

* T2 omitted because it would not read as clearly, and I don't give a ***.

You see the accum "stability point" is used to control the measure of performance and be the anchor by which to balance across the tech levels.  This makes it easy to look at how to adjust the performance of the higher tech levels since we know the accum will curve too steeply after this by +1 module.

I am not saying these are the "right" numbers, I am saying that you can look at how bots perform with their accumulators, see what multiplier renders the bot useless, find a threshold value, and that is your constant across the accumulator chart.  Cool, accumulator done!

On the Damage chart, follow this same diagonal, and specify some value a certain tech level at the SAME STABILITY should perform relative to the others.  Hell, it could be all equal.  But do NOT make T4 less damage than T3!

Reading this chart you can then say:
The stacked-accum multiplier of [2x] is achieved with = 6:T1's, 5:T3's, 4:T4's, 3:T4+'s
The Damage multiplier as-stacked of these are then = 1.5x(6 T1's), 1.75x(5 T3's), 2x(4 T4's) 2.25x(3 T4+)

See?  You can fit more tunings of lower tech levels 'as stably as' 1 less tuning of a higher tech level.
BUT, the higher tech level gets more dps at the SAME STABILITY.  Ideally this stability-point should be known and balanced among factions and bot types... I'm sure someone did the math on that somewhere..

So now (again, just an example) reverse engineer this with maths to produce the original tuning multipliers for the new balance and apply them across the matrix

A proposed framework, filled out (weapon tunings)

Accum
# Mods:   1x     2x     3x     4x     5x     6x
T1        1.12   1.26   1.41   1.58   1.77   2.0
T3        1.14   1.30   1.48   1.69   2.00   2.28
T4        1.19   1.42   1.68   2.00   2.38   2.84
T4+       1.26   1.59   2.00   2.52   3.18   4.0
Damage
# Mods:   1x     2x     3x     4x     5x     6x
T1        1.07   1.14   1.22   1.31   1.40   1.5
T3        1.12   1.25   1.40   1.57   1.75   1.97
T4        1.19   1.42   1.68   2.00   2.38   2.84
T4+       1.31   1.72   2.25   2.95   3.86   5.06

Now everyone can try with their own ideal damages on that accum-critical diagonal and see how the damage multipliers work out, stacked and with different tiers and slots for tunings.
Try it!  Think of what the ideal max damage should be, at what cost to the accumulator, how many tuning slots should this use?  Then cascade that down with each tech level and take the fractional power of those numbers to get the module's new multiplier.

Also note I haven't looked closely at the effects of the other tuning types and their changes, but I reckon they could benefit from the same methodology.

80

(73 replies, posted in Balancing)

I like the direction of these changes.

However to balance Anni's concerns: it looks like T1 is not just "less good" for accum/dps, it looks just plain "bad".
For example: there exists the possibility that on some bot B, fit with quantity N T1 tunings will be unstable and have lower dps, than the Same bot B with same quantity N T4 tunings where this fit would be stable and have superior dps to the T1 fit.
I argue that lower tier goods should not be bad in both factors, but should be just considerably weaker in all factors.
Ideally: Using the same number of T1's vs T4's should not have a worse accum penalty and worse dps.  I would argue that both just become some fractional amount of total effect of the other.

Explanation
Perhaps the way to bring this in-line is to make them fractions of the same Overall Effect of the other higher tier tunings.
Let's suppose a new balance where we see fitting 4 T1's is ~= 1 T4.  Same overall accum performance cost (that's total, not the accum % modifier divided by 4) and dps total % the same. 

So let's use your new T4 as the benchmark on the weapon tuning:

With 1 T4 tuning; that is 1.12x accumulator cost, 1.16x dps.
With 4 T1 tunings; the same _overall effect_. (1.12x accum; 1.16xdps)
1 T1 tuning then would be: 1.03~ (because 1.03^4 ~= 1.12) for accum; 1.04x for dmg

We can now argue about how many T1s should equal a T4, T2 or T3 etc.. But this at least begins to talk about how effectively slot real-estate gets used, and higher tech levels should make more use of them.
Now this may turn out a head full of T1s is STABLE but a head full of T4's is NOT.  However the critical point here is that the T4 in fewer modules will out perform the T1s. 
Then we get another point here:
By using T4's you can't fill all your slots or risk accum instability (or energy transfer logi..) either way there is a tradeoff.
So this encourages fit diversification like we have seen recently with pvp since the last balance which, in most cases, has been GOOD for shaking up the pvp meta.

Now this gives you a tool to target an ideal number of tunings at a T4 fit bot.
You can see where what accum % modifier with some ideal number of tunings begins to adversely affect the accum stability on that bot (Note: weapon types' cycle and accum cost will make this different per bot).  Yes you can make it stable with larger numbers of lower tier tunings, but the overall dps will be best with that number of T4 modules.
The effect of this would then be: T4's would be used for their performance increase, but will prevent all slots from being used all the time, forcing head slots to open up for other modules.  New players or those without access to T4 can equip lower tier modules, achieve performance increase, but not kill their accum faster than they would with the same number of T4's.

81

(34 replies, posted in Q & A)

Inda wrote:

Any info about them Zoom?

Can we discuss the balance before its release?

+1

82

(34 replies, posted in Q & A)

So why release them together again?
I thought the whole idea was to create a sustainable pace of development and visible progress on releases to keep the population active and participating.

Is there balancing that can only be done with both sets of new bots released?

Hell even if you have all of them, just release half, let the dust settle on the balancing, draw some hype on the next patch, and then release that when you have more eyes on the game.  All the while, you can work on other features that are down the pike.

Smaller incremental changes, faster to deploy, easier to balance and fix, shows more dev activity for effectively the same amount of work.

I just don't see the advantage of releasing both at the same time.  Perhaps there is a reason?

Also the last balance patch broke things, and the longer they are broken the more it becomes a regular part of the game.  This is bad.

83

(4 replies, posted in Agents seeking corporations)

Messaged in-game.

84

(4 replies, posted in Agents seeking corporations)

Shoot us an app at Ethos. wink

85

(34 replies, posted in Q & A)

I hope the balancing addresses the indy, repper and weapon tuning balance too.  Some interesting side effects..

For estimation follies try: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_poker
And then multiply by pi smile

Happy new year \o/

86

(34 replies, posted in Q & A)

Annihilator wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

The plan is to release all remaining bots before the end of the year. This might mean that they will come in one big patch instead of two, with the associated balance changes.

given there are only three weeks left of the year, you could start with your announcement blog, scheduling the patch for christmas, so you can release it a week later on the 31th wink

jokes aside - any news? the release of the syndicate EWAR bots may come together with another mindbreaking EWAR balance change that noone has ever expected big_smile

+1 for blog in advance of release and sale! big_smile

87

(15 replies, posted in Feature discussion and requests)

+1 to additional sources of kernals and/or RP

The old way was to grind beacons.
Beacons are nerfed so:
+More/Better loot on TAPs
+More/Better loot on NPCs in general, or certain spawns (rare/caravans/reds)
+Provide new ways to get RP

I see so many new players see the industry system, get excited, and then crushed when they realize the kernal grind is hopelessly long, and involves them skilling into high-end PVE combat to do it.
Even with the corp research tree, they still want to bonuses.  This gives indy players a goal to work towards, but at this moment in time its not a goal, but an impossibility for many.

And to add to Rugerx's solution and make it easy to see an implementation: put kernals in the syndicate store!
Tokens->kernals.  Maybe even just NIC; there is your nic sink! Boom inflation problem solved.

I do like the daily assignments more, because this draws players back to the game with regularity, and rate-limits the kernals one could earn over time, so its not easy to just drop 10bil nic and have your research done.

1.  Robot Paint.
2.  NPC Loot table rework (Or just manually update tables!).
3.  Improve outcome for squad missions.
4.  Beta 2 assignment update+tele connections to alpha.
5.  Syndicate Supply Drops.
6.  Add Daily/weekly assignment ("Dailies").
7.  Add mode to Turrets to engage npc.

What things would you (realistically) like to see on the TODO for the coming year?

Nah, I'm just joking.  Tell me why I am a worthless piece of *** and should die.

89

(34 replies, posted in Q & A)

Rovoc wrote:

For the love of god Turrets vs npc's.  Seriously give gamma something.

+1, was this implemented?  I remember some talk about it being ready-to-go but there was concern about explosions, energy drain, etc..

90

(34 replies, posted in Q & A)

Hello devs,
I think many are waiting and wondering about when they will see new Heavies and Ewars released.
What is your current estimated timeline to the next blog or update?
Thanks

smile

91

(52 replies, posted in News and information)

I really think the accum penalty as a stand-in for a more direct performance degradation as a real stacking penalty is causing more issues than the one it solves.

As many have said and pointed out: anything that also depends on accum is now adversely affected.  Shields, ecm, enwar, reps, etc.

Also, the fact that now cycle times being reduced to make fits stable or using lower-tier equipment is totally backwards.  Why would T4 modules, that cost more to make, but have less utility for the end-user and therefore less value to them  because of faster cycle times?  Or why would having high skills with cycle time reduction, even with maxed out accum skills still result in accum instability?  More skills should improve performance.  If you can't run miners continuously, ore/hr is reduced, and this is the performance metric miners care about. 
As a miner/harvester, one should purchase and add more modules to a fit, therefore costing more(value), to increase this overall performance.  If adding more performance-enhancing modules suddenly starts making the fit less performative than a fit with empty slots(cheaper; but more effective?): why?  why not just reduce the increase in performance per module?  So the 4th or 5th module might be a drop in the bucket, but it doesn't go from viable to broken!  Now, cheaper fits get more done.  Whereas investing more here breaks the fit. 
Same for any PVE activity.  Now with less dps tunings, or accum instability, less bots are killed(PVP: therefore demand for bots/mods drops*), less materials are yielded, and pve-combat progress slows.

*This is a higher level issue about the life-span of a bot on field in pvp and pve and how that affects market/material demands.  I'd argue this demand needs to increase, not decrease.  More bots dying faster=good for the economy.

The tuning buffs and penalties on armor rep tunings and indy tunings are having some exploitable 'features'.  Very fast harvest mission running, nora explosion on yields, and more to find out!

So overall:
PVE combat is slower; due to lower damage output
Harvesting/mining have potentially high yield/short burst potentials; cause assignment times to drop.  token market inflation?
PVP: longer time on field, due to less overall dps. (Stalemates more likely; less death; less material demand)
PVP: more diverse fitting. +1

92

(52 replies, posted in News and information)

Just to get some clarity on this:
Is this intended to be a sort-of stacking penalty?  But instead of reducing the performance of every extra module of the same type, you introduce a base penalty to accum performance?

If that's the case: what about all the other things that need to use the accum?

I agree a stacking penalty will introduce diversity in fits.  It makes the extra module slots of the Seth mk2 not overpower bots with other natural abilities/bonuses.  But why then target the penalty at the accum rather than the performance of the modules themselves?

Also now my symbiont can alpha strike a *** of noralgis out of those plant cycles smile  Feature?

93

(52 replies, posted in News and information)

Huzzah! \o/:D

Hello community and devs,
Seeing what other mmo's have done, either as a long-standing framework for the game, or injected as a way to maintain playership over the long-term.  I have a proposal for Daily Assignments as a way to combat PVE-content fatigue (aka boredom) and stir up some pvp(!).

So with the current assignment system, there exists the possibility to spawn a selection of randomized NPC's, in random locations, with particular loot settings, certain orders of objectives, and all the landscape elements and hard-points deployed about most of the islands in game. 
There also exists legacy "special missions" that have several waves, move around islands, and have a variety of tricky things to do.  But unfortunately this is static per faction.

I think the assignment template system is under-utilized, and can be used to implement Daily Assignments (or of some other infrequent interval).

Why not combine the two?  And only allow them to be run maybe every 12hrs ("daily") or every 5 days ("weekly") or whatever intervals you like.  Importantly you can do many, daily, weekly, monthly, maybe even... special one-off events triggered at times determined by devs?! (holiday events, etc)

By restricting the amount these things can be run, their difficulty (should also be very high*), and their reward (also very high*) will incentivize players to return for these infrequent, but regular, events.  Special events can then plug into this system, have parameters tweaked and inject some nic or new modules into the economy.

On difficulty and reward: these should be done with a minimal squad of 5+ (of a certain level of reputation*).  NPC's should have at least some observers, maybe at later stages in the event, but certainly that amount of combat difficulty is necessary.  Even an indy component, mining w/ npc spawns that attack the miner!.  Imagine any regular indy mission that spawns npcs, but doesn't require specifically that you need to kill the npcs!  I think something like this can provide content for logi pilots, combat, and indy, and requires such a squad to be formed and work cooperatively to achieve this assignment.

*Note on difficult throttling
I see an issue here by making them extremely difficult as a static level of difficulty, which will make this a "vet only" feature.  As a way to amend this, I suggest that the assignment-taker's reputation with the governing faction sets the difficulty.  So this way a group of 5+ new players can do a daily that is scaled for them.  And 5+ vets can run a level 6 difficulty, automatically as a process of taking the assignment. 

Now, about how to add pvp into this:
Any Daily mission taken at Alpha-2's or greater will require the participants to accomplish a non-trivial task on the neighboring beta.  Naturally the beta's will require the same, and might force players to go to a random other beta (assuming gamma or no other island type will be introduced with assignment-feature integration).  The difficulty of the mission will not affect this, only where the assignment is taken from.  I leave it to you to discuss if daily assignments are randomly placed at different terminals, or if players can choose where to run them.

TL;DR
They should provide reward that is unique, and proportional in amount to the risk and difficulty of the assignment.
The assignments should cover a broad set of activities and require a high degree of participation among many different specialties/bots/fits.
The assignments perhaps can, and should involve inter-island travel.  Alpha-2 daily's should send players to betas at least for one step.
They should only be available to be run by an individual character at some infrequent interval. 

PS.
I really like the idea of indy missions with npc spawns outside of this 'daily' thing.  This might also be a new category of template missions with higher rewards wink  Might need to be another thread..

95

(31 replies, posted in News and information)

Patch release fresh off of a sale would be a good way to show new players how much hard work the devs put in, and how dedicated they are, to this wonderful game smile

Oh and imagine if the heavy or ewars were released during the winter sale!
That would certainly draw a crowd...

96

(2 replies, posted in Q & A)

Followed by new bots and siiiiick bug fixes. cool

97

(31 replies, posted in News and information)

DEV Zoom wrote:

Couple of thoughts from me:

- If artifacting is fun with the Ikarus, I wouldn't want to change that.
- However, the hit&run artifacting is not really by design (at least not for the combat types), and I'd like to change that somehow, possibly by putting better loot into the artifact NPCs.
- The balance of the Hermes is a delicate thing because if it gets much better then it becomes a viable combat assault and a competition for the Locust. Enough speed alone might do that, but a better accumulator could be still ok.
- The base accuracy of the geoscanners is relatively high, because with the old scanning method newbies would have a hard time finding anything. With the new scanning method this could be revised now, and thus make geoscanner bonuses more valuable.


This is valuable information about how you see the ultimate design of the game versus its current implementation. 
So if this npc spawn then holds let's say 1/2 the value of the artifact ( or some amount that would make the hit-run strategy less appealing), then the question becomes the strength of the spawn.
If they are just nominal spawns, super weak --able to be killed with a hermes-- then this certainly biases the use of this new bot.  Otherwise if the spawn exceeds the capability of a hermes, the fit goes then to a super tanked sequer with a couple of real combat mechs in squad.  But this too might be an opportunity to provide high-end group PVE content even if it does outclass the Hermes for some beta/gamma artifacts. 
So long as the loot is worth it.

Dropping the base accuracy of geoscanners also might be a good way to pitch this as the 'dedicated exploration bot'.  So that way miners, exploration mission runners, SAP scanning, might all have something to gain with this platform.
But as with all nerfs, people will be angry because they have to change what they do and how they do it.
Whatever you do here, don't make it harder for new players to scan in the tutorial!  Hell, give them level 10 in geochem too.

98

(31 replies, posted in News and information)

As an artifacter, I am having trouble justifying purchasing the Hermes in any case over the ikarus or the sequer.
I see it as offensive capability, but is this what a dedicated artifacting bot should have?

Setting that aside, lets look at the things that matter: speed, shield tank, and cargo capacity.
Ikarus is much faster with greater cargo.  No tank to speak of, but many have been successful using the ikarus even to pop Level 3 observer stashes on gamma, and escape before getting demobbed.  So its risky, but super fun.

The sequer is your artifacting workhorse, can handle any regular npc spawn, and alpha observers (as they don't demob).  The sequer can fit an excellent shield tank for this, and boasts a great cargo for extended sessions.

So now I am left looking at the Hermes stats wondering what I am missing. 
It has slightly less accumulator than sequer, weaker shield tank.
It has a larger surface area than sequer, (does this affect incoming dps to shields?)
It is as fast as the new light industrials' speeds. 
Its cargo capacity is smaller than the ikarus.

The bonus to range is ok, but the accuracy bonus doesn't mean much to a serious artifacter that has basic geochem to 10 w/ t4 geoscanner.  I know I shouldn't assume that as we also need to consider this as a bot for new players as well, but chances are they will artifact with a cheaper light bot anyway, because skill-wise syndicates are a secondary investment. 

What is the thought behind this?  Is there a demand for artifacting bots to fight the npc spawns too?  That just sets yourself up to do two things poorly, instead of one thing well. 

I have a couple of solutions.
-Remove head slot on ikarus (this will force it into hauling role; will anger some players)
-Improve shield tank viability of Hermes (more accum, smaller surface size in keeping with syndicate theme?)
-Make it faster

Your thoughts on this?

99

(20 replies, posted in News and information)

big_smile

100

(3 replies, posted in Feature discussion and requests)

+1