Topic: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

The 3rd group of Syndicate robots is just around the corner - have a closer look at them in this new devblog.

http://blog.perpetuum-online.com/posts/ … ts-wave-3/

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

As an artifacter, I am having trouble justifying purchasing the Hermes in any case over the ikarus or the sequer.
I see it as offensive capability, but is this what a dedicated artifacting bot should have?

Setting that aside, lets look at the things that matter: speed, shield tank, and cargo capacity.
Ikarus is much faster with greater cargo.  No tank to speak of, but many have been successful using the ikarus even to pop Level 3 observer stashes on gamma, and escape before getting demobbed.  So its risky, but super fun.

The sequer is your artifacting workhorse, can handle any regular npc spawn, and alpha observers (as they don't demob).  The sequer can fit an excellent shield tank for this, and boasts a great cargo for extended sessions.

So now I am left looking at the Hermes stats wondering what I am missing. 
It has slightly less accumulator than sequer, weaker shield tank.
It has a larger surface area than sequer, (does this affect incoming dps to shields?)
It is as fast as the new light industrials' speeds. 
Its cargo capacity is smaller than the ikarus.

The bonus to range is ok, but the accuracy bonus doesn't mean much to a serious artifacter that has basic geochem to 10 w/ t4 geoscanner.  I know I shouldn't assume that as we also need to consider this as a bot for new players as well, but chances are they will artifact with a cheaper light bot anyway, because skill-wise syndicates are a secondary investment. 

What is the thought behind this?  Is there a demand for artifacting bots to fight the npc spawns too?  That just sets yourself up to do two things poorly, instead of one thing well. 

I have a couple of solutions.
-Remove head slot on ikarus (this will force it into hauling role; will anger some players)
-Improve shield tank viability of Hermes (more accum, smaller surface size in keeping with syndicate theme?)
-Make it faster

Your thoughts on this?

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

dammit,
for me the artifact range bonus is kinda useless, as the regular extensions already make you reveal more then half of the island in one scan.

already said that about the argano - make that a bonus that increases the range at which you pop up artifacts significantly, and its actually worth something.
aside from that, geoscan-cycletime would also be a worth bonus for my taste of not-so-professional artifacter.

last but not least - i liked it better with the sequer tracks, but i see why you did that.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

Couple of thoughts from me:

- If artifacting is fun with the Ikarus, I wouldn't want to change that.
- However, the hit&run artifacting is not really by design (at least not for the combat types), and I'd like to change that somehow, possibly by putting better loot into the artifact NPCs.
- The balance of the Hermes is a delicate thing because if it gets much better then it becomes a viable combat assault and a competition for the Locust. Enough speed alone might do that, but a better accumulator could be still ok.
- The base accuracy of the geoscanners is relatively high, because with the old scanning method newbies would have a hard time finding anything. With the new scanning method this could be revised now, and thus make geoscanner bonuses more valuable.

5 (edited by Annihilator 2016-10-22 14:44:41)

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

if you want combat type artifacts to be worth by killing the npcs, then you need to rethink allot.

to have an assault artifacter bot usefull for combat artifacts on beta or gamma, it needs profitable targets that are killable with short range firearms on a single assault (if you forgot, your targets violently explode)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

6 (edited by Celebro 2016-10-22 14:06:08)

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

OK, these bots are personally worth at least just to try them out!

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

DEV Zoom wrote:

Couple of thoughts from me:

- If artifacting is fun with the Ikarus, I wouldn't want to change that.
- However, the hit&run artifacting is not really by design (at least not for the combat types), and I'd like to change that somehow, possibly by putting better loot into the artifact NPCs.
- The balance of the Hermes is a delicate thing because if it gets much better then it becomes a viable combat assault and a competition for the Locust. Enough speed alone might do that, but a better accumulator could be still ok.
- The base accuracy of the geoscanners is relatively high, because with the old scanning method newbies would have a hard time finding anything. With the new scanning method this could be revised now, and thus make geoscanner bonuses more valuable.


This is valuable information about how you see the ultimate design of the game versus its current implementation. 
So if this npc spawn then holds let's say 1/2 the value of the artifact ( or some amount that would make the hit-run strategy less appealing), then the question becomes the strength of the spawn.
If they are just nominal spawns, super weak --able to be killed with a hermes-- then this certainly biases the use of this new bot.  Otherwise if the spawn exceeds the capability of a hermes, the fit goes then to a super tanked sequer with a couple of real combat mechs in squad.  But this too might be an opportunity to provide high-end group PVE content even if it does outclass the Hermes for some beta/gamma artifacts. 
So long as the loot is worth it.

Dropping the base accuracy of geoscanners also might be a good way to pitch this as the 'dedicated exploration bot'.  So that way miners, exploration mission runners, SAP scanning, might all have something to gain with this platform.
But as with all nerfs, people will be angry because they have to change what they do and how they do it.
Whatever you do here, don't make it harder for new players to scan in the tutorial!  Hell, give them level 10 in geochem too.

8 (edited by Annihilator 2016-10-22 19:09:34)

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

geoscan accuracy of geoscanners + extensions is well balanced!
full extension + t4 scanner gives you 100% accuracy on any bot.
don't you dare to touch those numbers without considering this:

especially after you have made geoscan results non-persistant, making a geoscanner equipped to a mining bot not have 100% accuracy in any way, would make mining even more anoying then having to bring so many different ammo types to an activity that shouldn't require any ammo at all.

same for artifact scanning - any combat bot should be able to have 100% scan accuracy with maxed extensions and best gear, to do those artifact scans.

also, don't forget, there is that syndicate scanner module - don't balance even more gear into uselessness then it already is, just because you want to give ONE robot a reason to exist.

*edit:*
you could get rid of that negative gameplay element anyway. make geoscans 100% accurate by default , and have the extension reduce the accumulator consumption and the scan radius,
while the geoscanner itself gives you range and cycletime,
the industrial bots reduce accumulator consumption, and the explorer comes with artifact specific "discover range" and "cycletime reduction"

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

9 (edited by Inda 2016-10-22 21:19:32)

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

When we are look at it, I just would tell the basic problem I have with artifactsing,

you pop out NPC-s at the Artifact tile, and you are in a "weak" robot, and not with a team, so that is Illogical by design, how the players use the artifactsing, and befoer you wasnt able to "switch" artifacts either so that was worse before and didnt see any action to that. And I just didnt say a thing about Observers.

I would see better loot/ groupplay opportunities from Artifacts. (Maybe players actually would play the game together, not just ALONE!!!! )

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

I can't believe no one has brought up the fact that the Hermes has 16U worth of cargo space.  So what every 5-7 artifacts im gonna have to go back to station?  I really like the speed that it has, however is the reason for the increased speed to run back to stations?  Awesome idea about having better loot from the artifact npc's, as this would encourage more group play.  But, forcing people to have groups to artifact, when artifacting has been a solo thing since forever, is not wise.  I like the option of you "Could" get better/more loot if you interact with the npc not you "Must" kill the npc's in order to receive you booty.  Overall good initiative good thinking, but you should really take ur bots out and use them before you send them to the world. Im referencing the 16U(only complaint).

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

Does that 4U difference compared to the Ikarus really mean that much? I don't want to make any other robot obsolete with the new robots, and this isn't a hauler.

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

i artifact in a sequer... Better accumulator to run speed nexus and able to scan.  i honeslty would take a diablos vs an ikarus but with the slope thingie i would still choose a sequer.

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

Rovoc wrote:

I can't believe no one has brought up the fact that the Hermes has 16U worth of cargo space.  So what every 5-7 artifacts im gonna have to go back to station?

as if any activity ingame does not require you to return to the same location because your cargo is full.

Rovoc wrote:

I really like the speed that it has, however is the reason for the increased speed to run back to stations?  Awesome idea about having better loot from the artifact npc's, as this would encourage more group play.  But, forcing people to have groups to artifact, when artifacting has been a solo thing since forever, is not wise.

i love this argument, same as this:

Rovoc wrote:

I like the option of you "Could" get better/more loot if you interact with the npc not you "Must" kill the npc's in order to receive you booty. ...

it really reminds me of those "i am for green power, windmill power is THE thing... but don't you dare to place a single one in my sight".

all zoom needs to do is to make artifacts that need a groups to do. but those arguments that you gave are the typical ones you read in MMOs: "plase add group content, but don't you dare to force us to do it as a group to get the better reward that comes with it"

Rovoc wrote:

i artifact in a sequer... Better accumulator to run speed nexus and able to scan.  i honeslty would take a diablos vs an ikarus but with the slope thingie i would still choose a sequer.

at least Zoom already noted that something is wrong...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

14 (edited by Rovoc 2016-10-25 20:52:58)

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

Ill admit, most of my "I do this to take up time" has been artifacting.  But, when has artifacting ever been about group play?  IF you want me to throw in my two cents about group play fix missions.  I even had an idea about an NPC island we can siege maybe even as a server.  I may have a linear though as to what artifacting should be, but that's beacuse i started off as an artifacter.  I remember never mining, i provided all my own cortex's and minerals from recycled T3- and T0 stuff.  Im gonna try to say this so that if zoom does implement it he doesn't have to say he got the idea from me.  But what if there was a "New" artifact that required new charges that did the group thingie?  Last i timed, it took me an hr to fill up a sequer mk2 full, if we do the math 100/16 but fook that im lazy lets just round 16 to 20 giving the hermes 4 more U.  1/5 of the time i could be out in a sequer im going to have to be returning to station to drop stuff off.  I could drop them off @ field terminals but then i have to run around in a scarab to scoop everything.  Im gonna quote Garth "We fear change"... however, we don't fear new things.  Yes, there is a difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU3qfDtWFmk

IF you don't see the irony you're hopeless

15 (edited by Inda 2016-10-26 08:21:06)

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

Well I think Rovoc basically right, at solo vs group, the artifactsing was a solo stuff to do, if you change that you change again the whole mechanics, so think about it.

I would see more groupplays also but not deleting old solo content. The cargo capacity maybe dare to have another debate, if Ikarus is way more faster then I thnik you can increase the capacity of the Hermes (NEW Artifact robot)

maybe 40 U ? .

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

For group play, it's better to experiment with new PvE content, there's a LOT of ideas of what this can be. Islands, instances, etc.
Don't fix what isn't broken, add new things.

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

Slight update to the Hermes' stats in the blog:
* Accumulator: 450 AP @ 240sec recharge
* Surface hit size: 4 m

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

when the new patch hits ill take the ikarus, herpes, and sequer out to do testing for you Zoom.  On paper im gonna say speed < Cargo size especially when its such a huge different 16% of 100.  Not to mention if you compare cpu and reactor from all 3 bots sequer still reigns supreme.  180u vs 100 and 120.  I like the reactor on the Hermes, however 3 headslots will be the limiting factor.  My Sequer running small shield, scanner, v-nexus, accu expander is running almost max cpu and reactor.  No way in hell the syndicate robots are gonna run anywhere near that set up.  i guess without the v nexus you don't need it.  We'll see should be fun testings the 2 against legacy.

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

zoom - have you tried different heads on those two bots already?
as far as i can tell, you have no bot yet with either Scarab or Sentry head wink


Rovoc - do you reall want to test THAT for Zoom?

Rovoc wrote:

when the new patch hits ill take the ikarus, herpes, and sequer out to do testing for you Zoom.

fuuu

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

ok at least someone got the joke.  ty for pointing it out.

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

Annihilator wrote:

zoom - have you tried different heads on those two bots already?

I did, but unfortunately a lot of them have bad connections to other chassis' (floating in the air or weird angle).

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

you are doing a good job at finding good looking combinations of the few body parts you got.

though, since you have changed the Hermes' lower body to the termis tracks (because sequer tracks already used by two other hybrids then),
the smooth torso of the baphometh doesn't fit that well, and i though, maybe the more edgy torso of the waspish would do better.

on a sidenote:
it seems you have at least unlocked the skills to put existing weapons on torso slots that haven't been prepared for them in the past (the change of the weapon layout on the waspish).
since all the weapons tucked to the defense sentry, are already fully animated and rigged ingame - can you later make hybrids that can attach those? as proof of concept, you surely remember the picture i had uploaded of the Seth with the Sentry-Laser.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

Graphics-wise it's not specific torso slots that have to be prepared for the modules, we have armtype IDs, which control how the weapon models are aligned and connected (sideways, upwards, on arms, etc.). And for the game logic part we have a simple config for the chassis that says which slot can take which size/type of modules. Mostly what I did so far for the new robots is changing slot types, removing slots, and sometimes reordering them. But it's probably worth experimenting some more.

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

DEV Zoom wrote:

Graphics-wise it's not specific torso slots that have to be prepared for the modules, we have armtype IDs, which control how the weapon models are aligned and connected (sideways, upwards, on arms, etc.). And for the game logic part we have a simple config for the chassis that says which slot can take which size/type of modules. Mostly what I did so far for the new robots is changing slot types, removing slots, and sometimes reordering them. But it's probably worth experimenting some more.

its worth, if you also find a way to balance stuff wink

we all want to run around in a seth like that, or see gamma turrets that use the base of the old police towers.
i am not sure, but did this funky module on the symbionts shoulder every make its way into your database? Even in the robopedia, you see the symbiont with the small grenade launcher (i know that isnt in your database) and the "AoE plant remover", as Mancs called it at that time.

right now, i am looking for all the 3D assets you have already ingame, unused, that you can recycle for new content.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: New devblog: Syndicate robots - Wave 3

Patch will be delayed to next week, we want to include some bugfixes that are still in progress.