Re: Spark Teleports

This is how movement should be done.

I have alts in Alpha that drop TPs when I need them.   I had to invest time, money, blah blah.  In the future with lots of people, this would be easier to do.  People share the task.   It would require coordination, communication.

but instead, we dont need it because we have the  click-i-can-be-anywhere-anytime  method instead










Arga wrote:
Cassius wrote:

I suppose the same thoughts behind SpT should also be applied to mobile teles? because clearly they should not be used either, correct?

This is an excellent point.

There is already a timer on TP's, the initial charge time as well as a recharge between jumps, and a minimal distance between TPs.

If an FC wanted to take 30 minutes, risk a scarab or multiple sequars, to setup 10 tps and distribute 3 troops to each beacon, then drop in 30 troops in 3 minutes, that seems fair.

Being able to spark unlimited troops repeatedly, in comparison to TP's at least, is much more powerful.

Re: Spark Teleports

Burial wrote:

In the future of the game, lets say with 25 player factions (gasp).

The current system creates an environment for only a handful of factions to flourish.  If you are up against a mega alliance, you MUST make your own mega alliance just to take and hold on to one station.

In my opinion you will only ever have 2 sides with the current spark situation.  25 factions, you are dreaming... The one big guy will always keep everyone else off the betas.

Sparks have made Nia much smaller.  There is no place to hide, so in order to hold anything you NEED to be with one of the big boys.

This situation will deter new players from sticking around (except for the one who want to belong to a large alliance).  And even then, when large alliances lose at PvP then you have large numbers of players quitting the game, as I have seen over and over these past years.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: Spark Teleports

Balfizar wrote:

+1 all ewAr have LOS

+1

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

204 (edited by Gunner 2013-08-09 21:33:47)

Re: Spark Teleports

Penalties:


There must be penalties for use of such powerful tools.

If there is a penalty, a decision will have to be made about whether it is worth time/penalty to accomplish whatever the goal is of moving from point A to point B.


If I live in Alsbale, it should be a big deal to geographically leave there to help someone else somewhere else.

..but, it is not and there is no decision to be made because there is no penalty.   I move and help a friend the pop back over and continue bearing or whatever.


its like if the game Checkers had no rules and you push your opponents pieces off the board

205 (edited by Gunner 2013-08-09 23:12:09)

Re: Spark Teleports

glad ewar is on killmails now, christ that took forever to convince


SPARKS* will get altered as well, it may not get altered all the way, but it will

Merkle wrote:
Balfizar wrote:

+1 all ewAr have LOS

+1

206 (edited by Burial 2013-08-09 21:41:58)

Re: Spark Teleports

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Burial wrote:

In the future of the game, lets say with 25 player factions (gasp).

The current system creates an environment for only a handful of factions to flourish.  If you are up against a mega alliance, you MUST make your own mega alliance just to take and hold on to one station.

In my opinion you will only ever have 2 sides with the current spark situation.  25 factions, you are dreaming... The one big guy will always keep everyone else off the betas.

Sparks have made Nia much smaller.  There is no place to hide, so in order to hold anything you NEED to be with one of the big boys.

This situation will deter new players from sticking around (except for the one who want to belong to a large alliance).  And even then, when large alliances lose at PvP then you have large numbers of players quitting the game, as I have seen over and over these past years.

If you think a cooldown is the key to fight a megablob, then you are wrong. If devs really think it's a wonderful idea to have, only thing PVP-wise that will change is that I will move all the bots that are spread out between stations to Alpha2 terminals and start to blood-spark and Interzone where action is. After that it's just constant interzone games. If you think you can get SAPs with inferior force then you are wrong.

Only thing smaller force can do is perhaps gank a bot or two before others get there due to few extra minutes it takes to warm up an Interzone.

If you want to fight blob then think of something else. There have to be better suggestions.

Gunner wrote:

glad ewar is on killmails now, christ that took forever to convince


this will get altered as well, it may not get altered all the way, but it will

Merkle wrote:
Balfizar wrote:

+1 all ewAr have LOS

+1

Perhaos so that if you don't have LOS you loose some EW strength/demob weaker? tongue

207 (edited by Mongolia Jones 2013-08-09 21:41:56)

Re: Spark Teleports

DEV Zoom wrote:

The investment is to have enough equipped robots ready at all times at all the outposts you intend to keep.

That is not a hard investment to make.

It wasn't too long ago, CiR and others were cranking out thousands of bots.  They are not expensive to make and t2/t3 fitted bots are decent enough to pvp for the newer player.

Vets will have no problem fielding all those bots needed, I'm cranking them out right now at a fast pace because I know this is the new reality.

I lose maybe 10 or 20 bots a year.  All I have to do is invest one time in about 50 bots (ongoing now), then be able to place them where needed. Then after the initial one time investment, all I need is my regular 10/20 bot replacement rate.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

208 (edited by Celebro 2013-08-09 21:43:31)

Re: Spark Teleports

Gunner wrote:

Penalties:


There must be penalties for use of such powerful tools.


That other game always has a consistent way of introducing new mechanics, their moto is for every advantage there must be a drawback or penalties as Gunner says.

Actually this game uses this a lot when you fit any robot and other stuff.

Where is the drawback when spT was introduced?

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Spark Teleports

Gunner wrote:

glad ewar is on killmails now, christ that took forever to convince


this will get altered as well, it may not get altered all the way, but it will

Merkle wrote:
Balfizar wrote:

+1 all ewAr have LOS

+1

Holy ***...Did Gunner just admit Ewar is a wee bit OP?

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

210 (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2013-08-09 21:46:25)

Re: Spark Teleports

Mongolia Jones wrote:

In my opinion you will only ever have 2 sides with the current spark situation...

Sparks have made Nia much smaller.  There is no place to hide, so in order to hold anything you NEED to be with one of the big boys.

There were two sides months before spark teleport arrived. When CIR, eHarm, CHAOS were so powerful they could stamped on everyone a "rest of server" alliance formed to fight them. Its pretty much been two sides every since with smaller corps joining one side or another.

Spark teleport or no spark teleport I think two sides is pretty much inevitable eventually whatever mechanics are in place. The best we can hope for is the corps within each "side" falling out with each other at the same time and the simultaneous break up of both alliances.

211

Re: Spark Teleports

Ludlow Bursar wrote:

Sorry, Ville. That was a bit naughty, everyone can change their opinion of things but given the last eight pages I couldn't resist. yikes

The reason I found that post is that I read back through what people have said about spark teleport over the last 2 and a half years (which was actually quite revealing) and because I was puzzled...

Spark teleport is almost a year old and very little was said about it then suddenly WHAM!! A two hundred post discussion/rage/CD thread that almost every active forum member has contributed to at some point.

I just don't understand why its suddenly evoked such passion after a year!

I've changed opinions in a year.  Happens.

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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Spark Teleports

Burial wrote:

...only thing PVP-wise that will change is that I will move all the bots that are spread out between stations to Alpha2 terminals...

The best fights this game had was when players brought fleets from Alpha2's.  Many fights spanned whole islands and sometimes took hours.

If only we could only go back to those days...

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: Spark Teleports

Arga wrote:

Your arguement: "Its working now and isn't broken"

I'm taking this to mean that you are emploing the maximum defense strategy, blobbing, and it is working.

And that is why you not currently playing the game makes your arguments have less validity. We rarely if ever have more than 2 or 3 people with sparks at an oupost. When we show up for a sap defence or attack, our players walk in from all different places. I was killed by 12 and 62nd doing this very thing for a Heydl sap.

http://sequer.nl/killboard/index.php?a= … l_id=39735

Spark teleport is not being used as a blobbing mechanism unless you attack our gamma base. Because we all have sparks there. Any argument otherwise is just flat out delusional. The only reason "Blob" even gets brought up is because STC has more active PVPers than just about any other corp atm.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Spark Teleports

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Burial wrote:

...only thing PVP-wise that will change is that I will move all the bots that are spread out between stations to Alpha2 terminals...

The best fights this game had was when players brought fleets from Alpha2's.  Many fights spanned whole islands and sometimes took hours.

If only we could only go back to those days...

Yes but those fights stopped not because of Spark Teleporation but because players moved to gamma, leaving betas a deserted wastelands. Perhaps assignment patch can revive those islands, if not then I don't think you will find the kind of PVP you like very soon..

Re: Spark Teleports

Ludlow Bursar wrote:

There were two sides months before spark teleport arrived. When CIR, eHarm, CHAOS were so powerful they could stamped on everyone a "rest of server" alliance formed to fight them. Its pretty much been two sides every since with smaller corps joining one side or another.

True, before sparks, the CiR had a mega alliance but:

1. The other side was always a weak alliance at best and there were ALWAYS small corps here and there holding on to stations not joining any side.  I remember as we tried our best to get some of these small factions to join us.
2. For the CiR people it would have been next to impossible to hold all betas. Without sparks it wasn't possible like it is today.

Back then Nia was much larger so you could get away with being small and holding a station.  Today, everything is local, Nia is much smaller, so you HAVE to pick a side to hold a beta.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

216

Re: Spark Teleports

Shadowmine wrote:
Arga wrote:

Your arguement: "Its working now and isn't broken"

I'm taking this to mean that you are emploing the maximum defense strategy, blobbing, and it is working.

And that is why you not currently playing the game makes your arguments have less validity. We rarely if ever have more than 2 or 3 people with sparks at an oupost. When we show up for a sap defence or attack, our players walk in from all different places. I was killed by 12 and 62nd doing this very thing for a Heydl sap.

http://sequer.nl/killboard/index.php?a= … l_id=39735

Spark teleport is not being used as a blobbing mechanism unless you attack our gamma base. Because we all have sparks there. Any argument otherwise is just flat out delusional. The only reason "Blob" even gets brought up is because STC has more active PVPers than just about any other corp atm.


Your still missing the point.  No ones point fingers.  We are identifying a bad mechanic with players in mass.  Jesus Christ do I need to get the crayons and coloring books out?  Even DOTA2 has cooldowns on instant travel.

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Re: Spark Teleports

You never have to pick a side but you need to be clever at politics. smile

Re: Spark Teleports

Burial wrote:
Mongolia Jones wrote:
Burial wrote:

...only thing PVP-wise that will change is that I will move all the bots that are spread out between stations to Alpha2 terminals...

The best fights this game had was when players brought fleets from Alpha2's.  Many fights spanned whole islands and sometimes took hours.

If only we could only go back to those days...

Yes but those fights stopped not because of Spark Teleporation but because players moved to gamma, leaving betas a deserted wastelands. Perhaps assignment patch can revive those islands, if not then I don't think you will find the kind of PVP you like very soon..

No!

They stopped because of walls. (A barrier to movement).
Sparks are adding to the "lack of movement", therefor less pvp.

Movement is good, movement means pvp.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

Re: Spark Teleports

If you put a cooldown on sparks no one will ever leave their gamma island. Thus killing all pvp except for blobbing a critical sap defence. There will be less movemen and less pvp.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

220 (edited by Merkle 2013-08-09 22:20:14)

Re: Spark Teleports

We need a cooldown on forum posting.

Also I would like to point out, first we dont want to make this game like all the rest.

Now everyone is citing OTHER games to attempt to prove there point.

I want a one of a kind game.  smile

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

221 (edited by Gunner 2013-08-09 22:55:35)

Re: Spark Teleports

No, I was talking about Sparks, ewar is awesome.


Merkle wrote:
Gunner wrote:

glad ewar is on killmails now, christ that took forever to convince


this will get altered as well, it may not get altered all the way, but it will

Merkle wrote:

+1

Holy ***...Did Gunner just admit Ewar is a wee bit OP?

222 (edited by Gunner 2013-08-09 22:52:55)

Re: Spark Teleports

People keep discussing PvP in the context of just One fight.

As if the future of Perp has one fight per day.



You guys dont see what it will be like.


This is what it will be like:


Log in, there is a huge fight in Als with 100 vs. 100 assaults.

At the same time, there are six other skirmishes in Dom and Hock which involve other groups of bots of less than 10 each.

Also, there is a Gamma assault going on in XXXXX island.

These fights end and three more start up in other areas.



This is what we should be dealing with and clicking one button to be everywhere is going to have a great effect on those fights, because you really dont have to do anything to get to them.

It shouldnt be that way.



You should have to make a decision to mobile tele to Fight A or B or C, but cant do all because the are seperated by DISTANCE.




60 minute forums posting cooldown timer

223 (edited by Burial 2013-08-09 23:03:05)

Re: Spark Teleports

Thats also wrong.

Fights take time. Even smallest fights often take an hour, bigger fights stretching to few hours. Proper gamma fights take 4-6h MINIMUM for days. It's physically not possible to be in all of them. That's the natural way I was talking about earlier and that's how it should be handles. When people have players they will find ways to travel quickly to get the job done. All it takes to travel to Beta islands without sparking is an alt with interzone capabilities sitting in Alpha2 terminals.

224

Re: Spark Teleports

The point isn't if it needs a cool-down, it does and trying to argue against that isn't going to get anywhere.


While the need for the cool-down is clear, it's not so clear about how long it should be. Remember that the cool-down only starts if you select a bot. Meaning the only thing we really need to look at from a time perspecitve, is things that you would go to a station to undock for.

And with that, I'll have leave it to Lemon and Merkle to figure out if it should be a 1 min or a 1 day cooldown.

225 (edited by Burial 2013-08-09 23:11:13)

Re: Spark Teleports

Arga wrote:

The point isn't if it needs a cool-down, it does and trying to argue against that isn't going to get anywhere.


While the need for the cool-down is clear, it's not so clear about how long it should be. Remember that the cool-down only starts if you select a bot. Meaning the only thing we really need to look at from a time perspecitve, is things that you would go to a station to undock for.

And with that, I'll have leave it to Lemon and Merkle to figure out if it should be a 1 min or a 1 day cooldown.

So it needs a cooldown because you, as someone who has stayed away from game for a long while, having only briefly lived on one gamma island right next to Beta while avoiding PVP as much as possible says so?

No, we are not there yet. You haven't given a single valid reason why the system should be changed.