176 (edited by Lemon 2013-08-09 00:25:22)

Re: Spark Teleports

Martha Stuart wrote:

We are the majority.  This argument defends my position.

False, The majority doesn't play this game. This is why we have a population issue. You may be able to argue you are a hardcore vs casual player but by no means are you the majority of gamers' or the "Average Gamer's"

The "majority" left STC and PO a long time ago. To suggest the 10 active guys who play still within your corp to be the "majority" is quite a statement you are making. Not trying to be harsh but seriously?

I already stated one scenario where this can be abused, who cares if a corporation can move between 10 outposts on separate sides of the world. The issue is being able to rapid-idly re-deploy within the same area by abusing this mechanic. I welcome someone to leverage a argument against or for this behavior but this is what I beleive should be resolved.

Every player should be able to instantly move to redeploy to defend persistent player objects that can be lost when undefended i.e. Gamma. I really dont think anyone is calling for this to be patched tmw but rather just discussing it. 

Point and case: there is not enough reward in putting forth the effort to prove how the system can be abused. If nothing is done till it is abused fine be it. However once again we will have somewhere to pint and say "We told you so" as it gets nerfed again as fortold.

If you go kick a bee's nest you cant get upset when 3 or 30 bee's come out. you should have taken that in to account before kicking it.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Spark Teleports

Arga wrote:

You still have not presented an argument FOR having instant travel, other than majority rule

Zoom did. http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/83102/#p83102

And we can also add to that "until we've solved the problem of contracts"

Re: Spark Teleports

The game does not require that you play, only that you are subbed.  The majority are subbed.

As far as your little station hopping thing goes.  Nothing is accomplished by doing what your stating.  Neither of you are flagged.  If one does flag you have 5 minutes to dock up or die, or spark out.  They still have to sit there flagged up.  Sure we have have two sides all spark to one outpost, but it takes two to tango.  The tango'ers then have a "penalty" of there flag.  A great anti spark measure.

Sparking is beginning to be seen as a "hostel" act.  The crazy thing is, you can only do these "games" at three terminals.

Uno -  http://clip2net.com/s/5xccDx
Dos -  http://clip2net.com/s/5xccPt
Tres - http://clip2net.com/s/5xccZK

All the rest have a cool lockout feature.   That would be why AFTER missions are changed, and they will be changed.  Those three islands will become, next to useless.  Well Kinda useless.  Someone what useless. 

We talk of how easy it is to move fleets into station.   How can you move a fleet into a locked OP.  Well first you have to pull it out of stability.  That would assume there are zero defenders.  With sparks it gives the defender a advantage, as it should.  As the attackers already have one MASSIVE advantage.  Surprise.  They can choose when, or when not to attack a sap.

The main "problem" is those three outpost, in all reality gamma, alpha and the rest of the betas are working as intended.  Giving out rewards to those who keep the outposts, and rewards to those who attack the outposts.
Even so I dont see this as a complete problem.  As similar things happen in Eve as well.  Low Secs have always been hot Hot HOT!  Log offs, clones, *** happens there.   You dont go there unless your either stupid, ignorant, or want to have a small scale fight. And, yes there are missions there too! 
With that being said there is just more "Space" in that game, this one not so much.  Right now, I wouldn't do much about it, later I would personally love to see more space to get lost in. 

I'm rambling now, forgive me.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

179 (edited by Lemon 2013-08-09 01:01:58)

Re: Spark Teleports

Ludlow Bursar wrote:
Arga wrote:

You still have not presented an argument FOR having instant travel, other than majority rule

Zoom did. http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/83102/#p83102

And we can also add to that "until we've solved the problem of contracts"

And to think a blanket cool-down is a fix is juvenile at best, that is another knee-jerk resolution that only con volutes the issue further. A simple rule that prevented the setting of multiple outposts on the same island would seem as  still to be a less than desirable fix. We want to resolve the abusive behavior with out inhibiting the day to day use on your average PO player.

I did not realize in depth mechanics discussion involved so many one liners.

@Merkle I am speaking as the defender being the one able to abuse this feature, effectively rendering any sub-perfection exit strategy as viable. (with perfect squad composition)

Yes as far as you being able to effectively jump in front of them to the only neutral outpost being possible on 3 islands is true. Then again we are talking in the most extreme situations.

If say another group such as RPS (STC) comes in as 30-50 strong do you think a focused effort by them on a single island to break your "global" hold would even be possible?  I mean assuming you wanted to hold those it would take you what 1-2 haulers to stash every bot you would need to outfit the 5-7 guys needed to wipe every fleet they ran. Key here is that they would never even make it off that island.

I am talking about giving those attackers a chance to be viable with out bringing out everyone and there brother each and every time. A give and take scenario where even if they attacker loses they can still see the light at the end of the tunnel and not a HM outclassing them at every turn.

EDIT: you take in to consideration the abusive behavior leveraging multiple high-EP toons and your able to field multiple fleets instantly strategically all over a island.

This beta area to me conceptually should be a area where pirate/roams and the like can move and be relatively agile and loose with movements and not be instantly shut down once trying to operate in the area, the opposite of a gamma.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Spark Teleports

Lemon wrote:

This beta area to me conceptually should be a area where pirate/roams and the like can move and be relatively agile and loose with movements and not be instantly shut down once trying to operate in the area, the opposite of a gamma.

This is what we have now...They key is to move off of ABT, TMB, or ICS B.  All of the "commanders" for some reason want to fight around these outposts.  No idea why, actually I do, that is where they have most of there stuff.  The defenders also know this, and they setup to counter them!  The attacks have to change there choices, mix it up, move around, come in from different angles.  STC gives them a added opportunity by unlocking all of our outposts.  Giving all sides a opportunity to play the game, and have fun.

You speak as if there is a massive divide that must be filled, between newer players, and vets.  I would argue that in time we are all equal.  Time is the great equalizer.  Attackers have one major advantage that your choosing to ignore, surprise.  At any part of the day, they can choose to attack whenever they wish, with what ever they wish.

Stations are not won or lost over one fight.  They are won by a goal, and the drive to see it through.  Even the most hardened enemies can be broken, but that comes down to tactics and leadership. 

If you have a fleet of 7 guys, and a fleet of 15 chasing you, if one or two hostiles jump infront of you, run TO them and kill them.  Or ECM through them.  There are so many ways to get around a massive force that will not "deblob". 

In short, on gammas we already agree that the defenders should have the advantage.  Betas are no different, as every 12 hours is a opportunity to inflict damage on the defender.  With so many ways to do it.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

181

Re: Spark Teleports

To be frank a group of sub 2 month old toons wont have the lock times or ECM power to stop me from wiping  a group of 10-15 with 2-3 people.

3 months they would need some solid direction and well spent EP with proper gear.

What I dont want is for a player like me to hold NC and Dana and then 30-40 players come to siege my island from me and I am able to do the following.

They attack NC I can bait them in and swap a entire fleet or just the necessary counter fleet from Dana to perfectly flank. Vice Versa.

As the attack vs a equiv opponent in defense they will be able to counter fit you and thus need less numbers and less desirable terrain.

If you and I went at it over NC/Dana this would not be a overly large issue. However to the general population vs the proper group this feature is just overwhelming. This would actually also be decided in 1 fight as you and I both  know we tend to dance until the other miss-steps and then we full wipe to generally not see the other want to do the dance again for a month or so.

Also Attackers have no surprise seeing as the defenders know there sap vulnerability times and there own units on the field. They also have to account for which of 3 saps and bring the necessaries for it.

TL:DR
We are really starting to look at far to many factors and variables but the short is  that your average player either cannot or will not be willing to deal with the smaller faction of players who would look to leverage this feature against them.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Spark Teleports

Spark teleport has no impact on a small group of players pvping on the beta islands. It may play a role in a small group of players trying to take over a beta outpost against a numerically superior force. But I still say they aren't gonna be able to do that even if you were to get rid of spark teleport completely.

183

Re: Spark Teleports

Shadowphile wrote:

Spark teleport has no impact on a small group of players pvping on the beta islands. It may play a role in a small group of players trying to take over a beta outpost against a numerically superior force. But I still say they aren't gonna be able to do that even if you were to get rid of spark teleport completely.

When you are labeled the noob slayer for killing troves of players by the 10's and even 20's Numbers is nothing but a variable that factors in greater or lesser degrees based off of both the experience and capabilities of your opponent.

It is safe to say that when something can be abused against certain groups of players I speak from experience.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Spark Teleports

I wish the game had the problem of a 30 man noob fleet attacking a Beta.

Re: Spark Teleports

Cassius wrote:

I wish the game had the problem of a 30 man noob fleet attacking a Beta.

same sad

186 (edited by Lemon 2013-08-09 04:21:14)

Re: Spark Teleports

Prepare

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

187 (edited by BeastmodeGuNs 2013-08-09 04:35:48)

Re: Spark Teleports

when Steam comes out, im pretty sure we are gonna see more assault/Light gangs on beta(newbie gangs of course) Which would be nice smile

At least until they get rolled by MK2 heavy fleets and, oh and also....
http://www.mememaker.net/meme/hey-do-u- … ery-one-so
You know which corps you are when you see this lol

Reading this signature fills you with determination.

188 (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-08-09 14:57:32)

Re: Spark Teleports

Arga wrote:

Stuff

I don't think you are grasping Hitchen's argument.  You are semi correct in that Hitchen's used his argument in the discussion of Atheism and Creationism.  But the underlying logic of his argument is the same logic that pretty much every countries legal system is based upon.  Innocent until proven guilty. 

Your example doesn't even make sense in the context of hitchen's logical argument.  A correct use of your example would go like this.  Doctor 1 subscribes to the standard system in place, that to save a patient from a brain tumor you remove the tumor, and remove as little of the brain as possible or none at all.  This method has empirical data backing it up, and has been used and performed many times.  Doctor 2 (You)  comes in and says "Doctor 1, you are totally wrong, completely remove the brain to save the patient.  I have no evidence that my method is correct but I believe it to be correct". 

The point of hitchen's argument is the same as the legal system.  The Defendant doesn't need to prove his innocence.  The prosecution must prove his guilt. 

The second part of hitchen's argument is that Doctor 1 doesn't even need to respond to doctor 2's argument because 1) it has no evidence to back it up 2) Doctor 1 doesn't need to defend anything, because doctor 2 is the person trying to change the established system.  The burden of proof lies with Doctor 2, or the prosecution, to prove that they are correct.  Not the other way around.  This is why it is known as "Innocent until proven guilty"

So again, to use this logic, YOU must prove that the system is broken.  YOU are the prosecution.

Now, this thread has become a corporation dialog between two old enemies.  And it is pointless for me to continue this argument so, I'm done arguing.  Dev's I leave this matter in your capable hands.  I would just like to stress that before you change a working system.  Make sure the system actually needs to be changed.  Adding tedium to a game like this will drastically affect travel time (one of the worst aspects of this game), especially when there are systems in place already that restrict this system from being abused.  Not to mention that the system itself is open to all to use. By adding in cool-downs and other restrictions like it, you will be arbitrarily restricting peoples ability to play your game.

189

Re: Spark Teleports

The bus driver strikes again!  +2 Arga.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

190

Re: Spark Teleports

Even when there were literally Hundreds in GC.  You were able to move gear into stations.  Sparking is only going to get worse with more population.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Spark Teleports

Seems like sparking wasn't a problem before when the pop was higher..... And you had a gamma base....

Anywho, I am going back to Corporation Dialogue as well. I believe both sides have made their arguments. Let the DEVs decide what they want to do at this point. I still say there are bigger fish to fry ATM. And I would prefer them spending their time fixing actual problems with the game and the new player experience, and not with a game mechanic that isn't broken to begin with.

192

Re: Spark Teleports

Seems the only people interested in balancing are the same who have seen the peaks and valleys and want to keep the game at peaks while others just care about epeen.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

193

Re: Spark Teleports

This reminds me of one of the times I messaged a dev and said, "hey remember that op thing you didn't believe come watch me do it"

oh did I demob your rivaler from 800m in a cam through a mountain.

Sorry did my rep tank last for well over a hour and a half against 11 players.

Was I 1 shoting NeX through syndicate protection after the system was changed to prevent this.

where gammas not totally revamped  to new building rules around tps.

Where walls complete abused after implementation as foretold.

These are just a few examples, the list goes on for features changed after the damage was done and players were driven off.

9/10 players won't say anything about something broken until it isn't just their trick, don't be fooled however to think a few of us submit these things privately to avoid mass abuse by the playerbase.

Stc lets be real you have players who were here when their was populatoon. However your corp was not here during that time so many of you don't have that experiance, not to discredit you but being honest here.

I don't see anything CD about how me and merkle are discussing this mechanics use or abusive ways. If we don't drive to the end of each other's argument how am to see your view or you mine. Involving cd would be me saying "I killed 20 stc when you were all new so listen to what I say." The ones who stayed from that group are here now and wouldn't die like that again but it's those players I want to protect and make sure lube is used when they get *** be it by you me or someone else.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

194 (edited by Gunner 2013-08-09 19:20:01)

Re: Spark Teleports

Imagine if beacons werent nerfed how badly the spark mission abuse would have continue to translate in to billions and billions of currency.

I think that is a good example most people who know about it can relate to.



Once sparking abuse translates in to omfg wth is going on we are 5,000 greenlight players that are quitting now, then people take it seriously?





One good thing so far though is a timer that starts if you undock.  I think Arga brought that up.  That allows people to keep the ridiculous mission gathering, that also allows people to manage inventory and whatnot.

So, if players commit to undock and do whatever, they are stuck there on island for an hour.

Wow, imagine the concept of actually staying in one place.  You guys dont even remember what it was like to actually have to travel.   So many concessions for the last few people playing.


sigh

195 (edited by Gunner 2013-08-09 19:21:18)

Re: Spark Teleports

The day sparks came out, I knew the rules were broken and thought of 20 ways to abuse it. 

I had that thought in one single second.

I am shocked that it remains this way still.

You all defend it because you have warped ideas about what territory control is.

You have been smoking the pipe of easy logitstics now for some time.

Wait, you mean I dont have lol travel any more?

I can control everything with no effort?

I dont have to commit to a location?

You dont want it changed because it is easy mode, and well that is that I guess.



Why even bother playing? 




Cassius wrote:

Gunner, you are correct that with spark Teleport 20 people are able to control 10 outposts

So change the spark system because of that? Lol no. As you yourself point out, player population in the future will change the control. Your posts are bringing up far more basic issues with the game, and really they all point to the #1 issue. Population. All decent points. None of the decay in the game has its root causes in SpT, though. The population was shrinking long before it and Gamma were introduced.

Do you guys really think we at STC don't understand the factors that have lead to the current power structure within the game?

Lots of us love the game Gunner, not just you. On serious gameplay rules and balance, I never post politics I post with what I think will allow the game to grow.

Arga, I'm quoting EvE's system because other (not you) suggest it as an example (clone jump timers) why there should be a longer cooldown. EvE has the same issues, just on a larger scale.

Re: Spark Teleports

I'll just leave this here:

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/73938/#p73938

197 (edited by Ludlow Bursar 2013-08-09 19:27:34)

Re: Spark Teleports

Sorry, Ville. That was a bit naughty, everyone can change their opinion of things but given the last eight pages I couldn't resist. yikes

The reason I found that post is that I read back through what people have said about spark teleport over the last 2 and a half years (which was actually quite revealing) and because I was puzzled...

Spark teleport is almost a year old and very little was said about it then suddenly WHAM!! A two hundred post discussion/rage/CD thread that almost every active forum member has contributed to at some point.

I just don't understand why its suddenly evoked such passion after a year!

Re: Spark Teleports

Gunner ... if it was up to me this game would have

... no orange bots anywhere whatsoever
... roaming observers on Alpha (one of the best early game moments for me was getting destroyed almost instantly by a Kain observer right outside ICS Alpha.)
... neuting and demobbing lvl2 npcs
... a cloaking nexus

I don't like games on easy mode.
SpT is not easy mode .... even now you have to carefully choose which sparks you set up and have the equipment there to use.

I suppose the same thoughts behind SpT should also be applied to mobile teles? because clearly they should not be used either, correct?

You are not really thinking ahead about this ... as long as players do not get more than the current 10 possible sparks plus their death spark, they will never have enough sparks to do what you all are suggesting. and if/when the game gets bigger and has more pop, the sparks will be even less of this "overwhelming broken mechanic" everyone is trying to make it out to be.

Regardless you guys have your opinion, I have mine ... It's not changing unless I see a reason it should ... and so far all I've heard is the same jack *** argument repeated endlessly on your side, as if repeating it makes it ... true.

I don't care if you agree with my opinion, but I do take exception to the idea I want things easy. That is not the case. Don't confuse the ability to do things easier because of time and effort invested into the game, and wanting the game to be easy.

199 (edited by Arga 2013-08-09 20:18:33)

Re: Spark Teleports

Martha Stuart wrote:

Stuff

Well, this isn't a court of law or a freshman debate.

I have presented not only a statment, but the reasoning and logic behind why I believe it to be true. My invitation to you to counter is was a courtesy, as all you were doing was simply making bold assertions that "it isn't broken".

You're free to have the opinion that my reasons are incorrect and to choose not to counter them, however all you are doing is not presenting your side of the issue.

There's a lot of text here, so I'll restate it again.

Instant (0-5 min) travel enables the use of a Maximum defense strategy, also known as blobbing.

Many players feel that blobbing is bad for the game.

Increasing travel times makes it more difficult to apply the maxium defense strategy, therfore it discourages blobbing.

-----
Your arguement: "Its working now and isn't broken"

I'm taking this to mean that you are emploing the maximum defense strategy, blobbing, and it is working.

My counter is an opinion, shared by others, that blobbing is bad for the game and should be discouraged. Therfore the use of blobbing, while it may be working, is counter-productive to the overall goal of having a better game to play.

You have my permission to disagree with my opinion.

200

Re: Spark Teleports

Cassius wrote:

I suppose the same thoughts behind SpT should also be applied to mobile teles? because clearly they should not be used either, correct?

This is an excellent point.

There is already a timer on TP's, the initial charge time as well as a recharge between jumps, and a minimal distance between TPs.

If an FC wanted to take 30 minutes, risk a scarab or multiple sequars, to setup 10 tps and distribute 3 troops to each beacon, then drop in 30 troops in 3 minutes, that seems fair.

Being able to spark unlimited troops repeatedly, in comparison to TP's at least, is much more powerful.