Re: Spark Teleports

Martha Stuart wrote:

...this whole thing is about making it easier for your 6 man corp to compete against a fleet.

No!

This about the ease of any large force to be able to own all beta outposts because of sparks.

Because of sparking, a side, given it is large enough, will ALWAYS BE ABLE TO OWN ALL BETAS.

DEV Zoom, is this intended? If so then we will simply make the adjustment and live with the new reality.

BEFORE SPARKS, you had to make an investment into an area.  You had to "live there" and invest time into an area to hold an outpost.

AFTER SPARKS, all you need is to do is click one button, blob in, defend, and leave.  No investment, no using the terminal, ghost town.

STC guys, like Martha Stewart, have stated very clearly that a smaller force should never be able to "compete" (i.e. not hold on any outpost not even a single one) in the face of a larger "overwhelming" force.

SPARKS contribute to blobbing, and there are many anti-blobbing rules in PO.  Fix sparks and vote no to the BLOB.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC

127 (edited by Gunner 2013-08-08 00:00:42)

Re: Spark Teleports

I think I'd rather keep this more on topic with Sparks and troops movement than getting in to Corp Dialogue mud slinging.

Arga and Celebro have some more well thought out things to say on the subject then I do, I think.

What Mongolia said too.




Truth is any threat to sparks is a threat to the broken thing about doing 7 missions instantly using the spark system.

That is where the real money is/was.  At least the beacons were balanced out of that nightmare it was starting to be.

Re: Spark Teleports

Mongolia Jones wrote:

BEFORE SPARKS, you had to make an investment into an area.  You had to "live there" and invest time into an area to hold an outpost.

AFTER SPARKS, all you need is to do is click one button, blob in, defend, and leave.  No investment, no using the terminal, ghost town.

The investment is to have enough equipped robots ready at all times at all the outposts you intend to keep.

129 (edited by Homer J Simpson 2013-08-08 00:35:21)

Re: Spark Teleports

Cassius wrote:

Small Gang PvP is dead in both games. Its not caused by sparks or clone jumping.

Small gang PVP is dead now due to 2-3 things ive noticed...

Small gang PVP never seemed to recover after Walls 1.0

More people preferring to live on a heavily fortified Gamma Base than the more risky life of a Beta.

And in the end Game Population has a massive impact.

DEV Zoom wrote:
Mongolia Jones wrote:

BEFORE SPARKS, you had to make an investment into an area.  You had to "live there" and invest time into an area to hold an outpost.

AFTER SPARKS, all you need is to do is click one button, blob in, defend, and leave.  No investment, no using the terminal, ghost town.

The investment is to have enough equipped robots ready at all times at all the outposts you intend to keep.

Never forget that for a Veteran Player Zoom  getting insane amounts of bots & mods isnt that hard... Is even easier if your in a commie corp.

130 (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-08-08 00:47:23)

Re: Spark Teleports

Gunner wrote:

You never won anything.  You just moved in to a vacant lot.

Deciding to quit is known as a forfeiture or a forfeit.  Its not a glorious win, but a win none the less.  And ill take what I can get.

131 (edited by Homer J Simpson 2013-08-08 05:53:10)

Re: Spark Teleports

Gunner wrote:

You never won anything.  You just moved in to a vacant lot.

STC has always had a hard time winning against a competent enemy when facing even numbers. during CIR's last little stint in this game showed that many times.


But lets be honest this game hasnt had a proper war in a LONG time (years). Cant really blame some ppl for getting rusty...



tongue

132

Re: Spark Teleports

DEV Zoom wrote:
Mongolia Jones wrote:

BEFORE SPARKS, you had to make an investment into an area.  You had to "live there" and invest time into an area to hold an outpost.

AFTER SPARKS, all you need is to do is click one button, blob in, defend, and leave.  No investment, no using the terminal, ghost town.

The investment is to have enough equipped robots ready at all times at all the outposts you intend to keep.

The number of active players in a corp makes this easily managable. If CIR's goal was to put 30 fitted bots in each station, we could have done that easily, and 30 bots in the corp hanger would have easily outfitted our entire squad at any time.

I will however concede that if we were starting on a fresh server, the time needed to stockpile that many extra bots while actually defending would be a limiting factor. However, I doubt that bot availablity is an issue for current Vet corps, I know it wouldn't be for CIR.

Re: Spark Teleports

I understand that investment in bots and equipment stocked in the right locations is a strategic move, it needs some planning and hard work .Investment will always play a role, but what I am saying is that it shouldn't be the end all be all of strategic warfare.

Warfare aside, this instant teleportation saves me more than a few trips with enough scarabs invested on the right place.

RIP PERPETUUM

134 (edited by Arga 2013-08-08 01:23:42)

Re: Spark Teleports

Celebro wrote:

I understand that investment in bots and equipment stocked in the right locations is a strategic move, it needs some planning and hard work .Investment will always play a role, but what I am saying is that it shouldn't be the end all be all of strategic warfare.

Warfare aside, this instant teleportation saves me more than a few trips with enough scarabs invested on the right place.

Again, I'm not going to say a timer is the solution, but if you are sparking to a destination and then exiting to the terrain to actually do something that took time, like filling a scarab up and TP'ing it somewhere, it would have little impact.

As I mentioned, I never used sparks, but it doesn't sound like sparking is the core issue, it's more how quickly you can use it again.

Zoom mentioned the problem with buying remote orders. I'm spark noob, but you probably have to select a bot when you arrive. Maybe the timer only starts after you have selected a bot. This would also solve the issue of sparking somewhere without a bot.

The subtle difference here is that there's really no impact to just having your spark at a station if you don't commit to undocking. The OP part is being able to undock, fight or make a show of force, then being able to spark to another outpost 0-5 minutes later (assuming they even flagged).

Edit: Just to clarify, not undocking is strategically the same as everyone just waiting to spark if there were a timer. I may not be clear. If there was a 1 hour timer, the FC would make sure of where they were going to deploy before committing troops to spark, just sparking into the station and not selecting a bot, is basically the same thing minus the loading screen time, no?

Re: Spark Teleports

Arga: that actually sounds like a good idea but I'm not sure whether we can distinguish that the lack of an active robot is due to a spark jump, or death. And if it's the latter, is it bad or not if you receive a cooldown there as well.

136 (edited by Arga 2013-08-08 01:44:11)

Re: Spark Teleports

DEV Zoom wrote:

Arga: that actually sounds like a good idea but I'm not sure whether we can distinguish that the lack of an active robot is due to a spark jump, or death. And if it's the latter, is it bad or not if you receive a cooldown there as well.

When you die, you jump back to your home station. If a player sparks in and sets their home base, then the timer applies when they set home base.

If they don't set it, and it just happens to be their home base anyway, they undock and get killed, they could then spark away. If this is a real battle and they get killed, they arn't likely to spark away, if they suicided to reset the timer, that still only works at 1 location; and basically gives you a slight advantage at your home base. You're still 'wasting' arhkes, since you can't request a replacement without setting the timer.

Ideally it would be better if you could tell for sure if it was a spark or a death.

Edit: I guess you could still run into where someone sparks in, sets their home base, and then "Opps, I don't have any bots here" /stuck issue

Re: Spark Teleports

I hear the bells of progress    \o/

Re: Spark Teleports

DEV Zoom wrote:

Arga: that actually sounds like a good idea but I'm not sure whether we can distinguish that the lack of an active robot is due to a spark jump, or death. And if it's the latter, is it bad or not if you receive a cooldown there as well.


If you could ever get a spark to undock aside from being cool smile you could set it up in a way to make the difference between a dead spark (meaning bot destroyed on the field) or just a spark teleportation.

Yes cool down for death too is not intended, so bad if its long and you get locked in a station.

RIP PERPETUUM

139 (edited by Shadowmine 2013-08-08 03:16:03)

Re: Spark Teleports

This whole spark issue to me, is only a problem, with current population and political climate. And there is no point in tailoring critical game mechanics to this current population and climate.

It is funny that you guys keep saying that we have unlimited sparks and combats toons set to all outposts. Personnaly I have one spark on the blue islands and one for the red islands. That's it. And most of the people I know are similarly set up. So if something happens at that one spark location, then great. But more often than not, I am driving my happy *** from my nearest spark location to wherever the action is. As is most of my corp.

And to me that is the intention of the spark teleport. Not to be able to go everywhere instantly, but to have a few bases of operation scattered around the game to prevent you from having to trek across the world to do anything. By installing a cooldown, you reverse the point of spark teleport in general.

Now, the problem lies in the fact that one Powerbloc has control of most outposts. And that our enemies are weak and lack the stomach for the fight. So when they see 2 people undock at an outpost or inside the station, they assume everyone is just a spark away. When in reality this is rarely the case. To me, this is part of strategy of warfare. Is this their stronghold? Do they all have sparks here? Or maybe we find a lesser used station that few of the enemy have sparks at. But instead of putting some alts inside stations to monitor enemy activity, or keep track of who sparks in during possible engagements. It is much easier to just start a forum topic begging for a change to game mechanics.

Adding a cooldown to spark teleport would hinder the current powerbloc from defending all their outposts, but probably not enough to matter much. It would make people think twice before sparking to engage in PVP. But is this really what we are trying to achieve? Having people afraid to spark to PVP because there may be Better/bigger/ more important pvp elsewhere? I am not in favor of a mechanic that will reduce peoples inclination to PVP. That is already a big enough problem as it is, without making it worse... The real problem is that STC has more active players than any corporation in game atm. It will always be hard for a few people to wage war against a numerically superior force.


Now, if a corp only had 1 or 2 outposts, the spark cooldown wouldn't do much to help the "blob" you all speak of. Chances are the sap times would be different enough to allow everyone in that corp to be able to spark to both outpost defences when needed.
Now, if a corp (12/62, PHM)doesn't have any outposts  that need to be defended, the spark cooldown has no effect on them. As they are walking from whatever rock they are crawling out of. And have no need to be able to defend anything. So if I don't have an outpost or gamma base to protect, then I would be all for this cooldown mechanic as well.

But to me the biggest problem with this whole idea, is that when I spark over to a beta outpost on the slim chance of getting some great pvp action, and my enemy decides to blueball me and runs away.  I have to spend the next 45 minutes driving 3 toons across the game world from Dom back to imidero. Or I can log out of perp and go play some other game while I wait for my cooldown to expire. Is this also what we are trying to accomplish?

This game already requires significant amounts of time to gather resources, manufacture, make NIC. Why do I now have to be forced to spend 45 minutes walking across the world everytime I want to try and PVP. I just don't see how this would do anything other than make the game more tedious.

Bad Idea -1

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Spark Teleports

Shadow wins.  Thanks and good night.

Re: Spark Teleports

Mongolia Jones wrote:

Because of sparking, a side, given it is large enough, will ALWAYS BE ABLE TO OWN ALL BETAS.

First were winning....then we

Gunner wrote:

You never won anything.  You just moved in to a vacant lot.

Homer J Simpson wrote:

STC has always had a hard time winning against a competent enemy when facing even numbers. during CIR's last little stint in this game showed that many times.

are sucking.  Terrible and will never do anything....  Quickly turning into STC bashing YAY!


Remember there are three Islands where a hostel force cannot do what is being said here. 

http://clip2net.com/s/5wQ31b

This is really only about those three Outposts.  They have always been a magnet for PVP'er as, guess what, they cant, wont, nor ever will be locked.  You can go AFK for YEARS and your stuff is safe.

This isn't about gamma sparks, this isn't about alpha sparks, this even isn't about beta 2 sparks.  Its all about those THREE outposts.  Maybe we should just remove them from the game.  fuuu

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

142 (edited by Homer J Simpson 2013-08-08 06:01:20)

Re: Spark Teleports

Shadowmine wrote:

This whole spark issue to me, is only a problem, with current population and political climate. And there is no point in tailoring critical game mechanics to this current population and climate.


Actually a larger population i think would make the arguments put forth in this thread even more valid, since with greater population this mechanic & style of play would be used even more & you could also assume that with a better more well stocked market being able to just "grab" a bot fast would be easier to do.

Merkle wrote:

are sucking.  Terrible and will never do anything....  Quickly turning into STC bashing YAY!

sad

Let me have some fun forum PVP is the only PVP i get in this game lol

<3

Re: Spark Teleports

Hehe.  Its all fun and games. smile

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

144 (edited by Homer J Simpson 2013-08-08 07:19:26)

Re: Spark Teleports

Merkle wrote:

Hehe.  Its all fun and games. smile

till some one loses an argano


then its WAR

Re: Spark Teleports

Gunner wrote:

You took a long long break and have returned to a ghost town which is easy to move in to.  You can try earning it next time. There are only a few people here that can say they worked for it, you are not one of them in this case, Zortarg.

see. you dont know a lot. i never took a break i always was there. and i have been working on other projects. if you refere to that tiny occupation base on langruhm then i have to disapoint you. no this is not our living space. our bases look a bit different. the terminal itself was just set up to have a more easy way to kill yours quite some time back. it was abandomed for months. i just made a few alterations when you showed up. we could have deconstrucked these leftover buildings of yours. but it was simply mostly not worth our time.

146 (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-08-08 14:36:45)

Re: Spark Teleports

So a novel idea occurred to me.  Instead of listening to all the vets who spend so much time with this game and totally know exactly whats wrong with it without playing it.  How bout we ask the people who are important:  The people we hope to get on steam launch.

In all honesty, the vets don't matter.  We are not whats going to save this game.  The influx of new players who come with steam launch are going to be what saves this game.  So instead of asking people who don't play, what mechanics they like and don't like, how about we ask the new players what they think?

147 (edited by Homer J Simpson 2013-08-08 15:25:53)

Re: Spark Teleports

Martha Stuart wrote:

So a novel idea occurred to me.  Instead of listening to all the vets who spend so much time with this game and totally know exactly whats wrong with it without playing it.  How bout we ask the people who are important:  The people we hope to get on steam launch.

In all honesty, the vets don't matter.  We are not whats going to save this game.  The influx of new players who come with steam launch are going to be what saves this game.  So instead of asking people who don't play, what mechanics they like and don't like, how about we ask the new players what they think?

um yeah vets dont know anything

its not like some of us have been in corps that once had 600+ members & seen 90% of those ppl give up on this game after 3-4 month of playing


yeah totally wouldnt have a clue roll

Re: Spark Teleports

Martha Stuart wrote:

So instead of asking people who don't play, what mechanics they like and don't like, how about we ask the new players what they think?

"What am I supposed to do?"

Some of us are good at setting our own goals in a sandbox. Most aren't. Give them something to do. More PvE stuff. More ways of "keeping score" - aka comparing what you've achieved versus other players - overall and on a similar level.

149 (edited by Arga 2013-08-08 17:02:34)

Re: Spark Teleports

Shadowmine wrote:

This whole spark issue to me, is only a problem, with current population and political climate. And there is no point in tailoring critical game mechanics to this current population and climate.


.. stuff

Bad Idea -1

You make a lot of arguements about why a timer isn't needed.

Unfortunetly for you, you've also made the case that implementing a timer at bot selection would not change the way you play. The timer would however prevent a large corp with lots of EP and sparks from doing what you say you are not doing. Just because that large corp may not exist in the game now is not also reason to leave a bad mechanic in place.

That being the case, there's no reason NOT to have a timer and a good reason to have one. 0 + 1 = +1

150 (edited by Shadowmine 2013-08-08 17:13:01)

Re: Spark Teleports

No, I made a case that no cooldown is needed period. Bot or otherwise. Forcing people to wait to play this game is a bad idea. Especially since you cant see what items you have in a gamma terminal until you spark there.

You make an argument that a timer can be implemented on bot selection. But as you don't play, you have no argument as to why it is needed other than the personal agenda of your whining allies. Making major game changes completely based on the uninformed vocal minority is also a bad idea.

-2

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2