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Re: Spark Teleports

Gunner wrote:

The game isnt large at all because you can be everywhere with a click.

It may as well just be one piece of land with all the stations in the center, because that is actually what it is when you can move to them in a seconds, then back and forth.

its tiny

man guys use your brain:

the world is not that small and no your example is a bad one. then the land around each outpost is a different one.

atm you have a max of 10 sparks +1 blood spark (but usually you save that to jump to any alpha location)
but honestly. who has it at 10? thats quite a few ep and i have it sitting at 8 and that will stay a while longer.

so what do we have: 6 beta islands with a total of 18 terminals. so no you cant have sparks at all of them. (not if you dont have 3 combat accounts and spread them all over).
you can have one at each beta island if you choose so. but that will leave you 2-4 for something else.

i dont know what you have, but with home and alliance bases (gamma) i defenetly need at least 4 sparks for gamma bases to make everythink there possible without hat least one hour of travel on a daily bases.
that leaves me 4 i can place on beta. 6 if i had it at lvl10. but even if i had it at level 10 its questionable if i would use 6 for beta.

cooldown:
a cooldown will help absolutly nothing.
if pvp arises at a outposts where i have a spark (AND A BOT!) then i will jump there and it will start. the moment i sparked the counter will start. if that pvp stuff is taking more time then the cooldown then i can spark out or somewhere else, just as there is no cooldown. because most likely the cooldown will be ready when pvp arises.

ill give you a example for the only pvp abuse that i can see:
pvp at heydel. you jump there and dock out. enemy runs away towards icsB. you dock up again and spark to icsB dock out and catch them.
that only works IF you have sparks and bots at both outposts and ONLY if you have not flaged up in pvp. otherwse you could not dock up and spark again.

OR: there are multible pvp opertunities at the same time at different locations. then you can jump to them. BUT there still is a 5m cooldown to dock up again (pvp flag). so being everywhere just like you claim is simply not possible.

also atm we have a abnormal situation where one coalition holds 11 beta outposts. that will change drasticly if more ppl get into game. also most of their owners will lock out everybody else of their outposts, so that jumping around will not be possible.

99,5% of all pvp cases the cooldown will only stop you going back to whatever you have been doning before the pvp happend.

and now explain again in what situation a cooldown will help that ppl will not jump to the defense?


p.s: its your base and you should be able to defend it. so spark is a good thing. everything else is no issue or just to abnormal circumstaces that we have resulting from low population (again).

102 Reply by Martha Stuart (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-08-07 14:57:10)

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Re: Spark Teleports

They scenario that they want is the gank or the ropeadope.  For example:  hypothetically, lets say 2 62nd toons go to Uria.  They start some *** or in some other fashion make us think that there will actually be a fight there.   We jump in, ready to defend.  The two 62nd players disengage at Uria and run for it.  After the defense force has jumped into Uria, the real attack begins.  The main 62nd fleet then attacks the real target.  Be it a SAP, miner, whatever.  But the real attack wasn't Uria, it was at Dana.  The attack at Uria was just a feint to get the fleet to jump and strand themselves at Uria, so the main attack can then have free reign for as long as the cool down timer lasts, with no threat of a defense fleet showing up.  The only reason people want this is because they don't want to actually fight someone who might beat them or inflict major casualties. 

They want to be able to kill some mission runners, ratters, haulers, without having to fight off a possible overwhelming counter-attack.  This is the only reason you would want a mechanic like this.  In effect, they are trying to level the playing field against superior numbers, because they are at a major numerical disadvantage.  They know they can't field the fleet we can, so they will most likely lose completely in a stand up fight.  Hence why they want to gank with no threat of someone showing up to shoot them.  There is no other reason to add a cool down timer, besides not wanting to actually fight.

103 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2013-08-07 17:28:27)

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Re: Spark Teleports

The cooldown is based on the PvP flag conclusion.

You can't spark if you have committed a hostile act for xx minutes, even 30 is reasonable.

Simple.


I am not even that interested in removing spark for non pvp situations.


==== Tactic A

I lure your blob to location A and trick you all to flag up.

You are stuck there for 30 minutes.

I hit location B.

just won EVE

You are so afraid of this simple tactic and this is the tactic that Zoom cant even wrap his head around that he tells us that he just doesnt understand.


=====

If you use the superblob tactic, I use it against you.

If you cant defend 12 stations day in and day out with 10 people, you have too many stations or not enough people.

This game is crippled and the quantity of people remaining is an insignificant number.  There are zero people playing right now, imo.

At what amount of subs does the game hit rock bottom?

The remaining players are in denial.  The game isnt dead, but all the decisions that were made in the last two years has lead us to this point, therefore I conclude that some of them are very wrong ones.



Zortarg Calltar wrote:

stuff.

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Re: Spark Teleports

You are 100% correct.

We can operate in small groups because we are not wrapped around one FC.  You guys are afraid to do that.  You only have two players remotely capable of operating the way we operate.






Martha Stuart wrote:

They scenario that they want is the gank or the ropeadope.  For example:  hypothetically, lets say 2 62nd toons go to Uria.  They start some *** or in some other fashion make us think that there will actually be a fight there.   We jump in, ready to defend.  The two 62nd players disengage at Uria and run for it.  After the defense force has jumped into Uria, the real attack begins.  The main 62nd fleet then attacks the real target.  Be it a SAP, miner, whatever.  But the real attack wasn't Uria, it was at Dana.  The attack at Uria was just a feint to get the fleet to jump and strand themselves at Uria, so the main attack can then have free reign for as long as the cool down timer lasts, with no threat of a defense fleet showing up.  The only reason people want this is because they don't want to actually fight someone who might beat them or inflict major casualties. 

They want to be able to kill some mission runners, ratters, haulers, without having to fight off a possible overwhelming counter-attack.  This is the only reason you would want a mechanic like this.  In effect, they are trying to level the playing field against superior numbers, because they are at a major numerical disadvantage.  They know they can't field the fleet we can, so they will most likely lose completely in a stand up fight.  Hence why they want to gank with no threat of someone showing up to shoot them.  There is no other reason to add a cool down timer, besides not wanting to actually fight.

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Re: Spark Teleports

Counter for that is that whenever you need to defend SAP, you don't screw around. Theres no point changing current game mechanics so tactics thought out of your head could work. You are all clever players, I'm sure you can think of something else with current mechanics.

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Re: Spark Teleports

Gunner wrote:

==== Tactic A

I lure your blob to location A and trick you all to flag up.

You are stuck there for 30 minutes.

I hit location B.

just won EVE

You are so afraid of this simple tactic and this is the tactic that Zoom cant even wrap his head around that he tells us that he just doesnt understand.

Yes, that tactic might work for the first time. After that it will just cripple the gameplay without any advantage to it.

Gunner wrote:

This game is crippled and the quantity of people remaining is an insignificant number.  There are zero people playing right now, imo.

At what amount of subs does the game hit rock bottom?

The remaining players are in denial.  The game isnt dead, but all the decisions that were made in the last two years has lead us to this point, therefore I conclude that some of them are very wrong ones.

You just attributed the demise of the game to a mechanic which 95% of our players don't even reach in the first place.

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Re: Spark Teleports

DEV Zoom wrote:

If this is the problem then I don't understand how a cooldown would help, since you would get the timer AFTER you've already teleported there and contributed to whatever PvP defense necessary.

You fail to see how players think when there's a cool down in place. Should I SpTele. to defend Beta island A or is it a decoy to attack Beta island b or gamma C, with no cool down there is little meaning for choice and how your choice affects the outcome. There is also little meaning right now, on creating a decoy by attackers either.

Intrusion 2.0 was created with the exact mechanics to reward players that are active on that island, and not to reward players that just stock up the terminals/OP with gear and leave.

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Re: Spark Teleports

Celebro: your argument has some merit, but doesn't the fact that a corp can easily stock up an outpost without any resistance mean that they are the major force in that area?

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Re: Spark Teleports

The funny thing is spark didn't help me much last night.  When you don't have a bot there spark means nothing.  Or you take whatever trash you can find and hope for the best.

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110 Reply by Martha Stuart (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-08-07 18:34:06)

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Re: Spark Teleports

Gunner wrote:

.

If you cant defend 12 stations day in and day out with 10 people, you have too many stations or not enough people.

We can defend them, you are the ones that are failing.  hence why we control 12 Beta outposts.  this whole thing is about making it easier for your 6 man corp to compete against a fleet.  Sorry, but a small nation shouldn't be able to take on the U.S. military.  You are trying to work the system so everyone else has to play the way you want.

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Re: Spark Teleports

DEV Zoom wrote:

Celebro: your argument has some merit, but doesn't the fact that a corp can easily stock up an outpost without any resistance mean that they are the major force in that area?

Resistance has been diluted with low population and gamma islands (larger game world). I'm pretty sure most experienced players with a an alt can stock up any Beta terminal with gear, even with triple the active players atm. You just need to find a time that's quiet and whilst  most of your enemies are 'logged out'.

If you are going to start defining 'Major force' by how much stocked up gear Corps have on Beta islands , then this only leads to a bland form of attrition warfare , who ever has more stuff wins; instead of who ever makes good decisions on where or when to attack.

Anyways, you do have a good point. Still my main argument stands spark cool downs make both attackers or defenders use strategic warfare at it's fullest.

RIP PERPETUUM

112 Reply by Ville

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Re: Spark Teleports

Celebro wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

If this is the problem then I don't understand how a cooldown would help, since you would get the timer AFTER you've already teleported there and contributed to whatever PvP defense necessary.

You fail to see how players think when there's a cool down in place. Should I SpTele. to defend Beta island A or is it a decoy to attack Beta island b or gamma C, with no cool down there is little meaning for choice and how your choice affects the outcome. There is also little meaning right now, on creating a decoy by attackers either.

Intrusion 2.0 was created with the exact mechanics to reward players that are active on that island, and not to reward players that just stock up the terminals/OP with gear and leave.

Someone gets it!!!  Finally after 5 pages!!  * happy dance *

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Re: Spark Teleports

Gunner wrote:

The cooldown is based on the PvP flag conclusion.

You can't spark if you have committed a hostile act for xx minutes, even 30 is reasonable.

Simple.


I am not even that interested in removing spark for non pvp situations.


==== Tactic A

I lure your blob to location A and trick you all to flag up.

You are stuck there for 30 minutes.

I hit location B.

just won EVE

You are so afraid of this simple tactic and this is the tactic that Zoom cant even wrap his head around that he tells us that he just doesnt understand.

very funny. even if you could do that it will only work once. and if it works ppl will adeps and not throw you a blob to kill 2 bots and keep the rest in reserve.


Gunner wrote:

If you use the superblob tactic, I use it against you.

If you cant defend 12 stations day in and day out with 10 people, you have too many stations or not enough people.

This game is crippled and the quantity of people remaining is an insignificant number.  There are zero people playing right now, imo.

i see only one thing. just like i have seen with other in the past year or so:
when ppl were once part of a powerfull coalition there was no problem. now their "power" is gone. and the once small alliance is now the "powerfull" force. i only see the ppl once used to power complaining and *** about some game mechanics that are absolotuly not a problem. and as you have pointed out yourself: the problem is the low population.
its not the spark teleport.
you just cant take a beta with your 4 ppl aianst 14. and thses 14 are th e big bad blob (from your point of view). you *** around and are looking for a skapegoat insted of admitting that you 4 ppl just simply cant beat the 14. and thats your problem. but you cant admit it so you *** about something else. as others have done before you.

this topic was senseless from the start and im done with it.

114 Reply by Arga

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Re: Spark Teleports

Martha Stuart wrote:

They scenario that they want is the gank or the ropeadope.  For example:  hypothetically, lets say 2 62nd toons go to Uria.  They start some *** or in some other fashion make us think that there will actually be a fight there.   We jump in, ready to defend.  The two 62nd players disengage at Uria and run for it.  After the defense force has jumped into Uria, the real attack begins.  The main 62nd fleet then attacks the real target.  Be it a SAP, miner, whatever.  But the real attack wasn't Uria, it was at Dana.  The attack at Uria was just a feint to get the fleet to jump and strand themselves at Uria, so the main attack can then have free reign for as long as the cool down timer lasts, with no threat of a defense fleet showing up.  The only reason people want this is because they don't want to actually fight someone who might beat them or inflict major casualties.


Your example, and I understand it's just an example, is a poor one.

You've just made the hypothetical arguement that you would need to commit a significant portion of your troops to the Uria outpost to counter (2) toons which would leave the rest of your empire unguarded unless you were able to INSTANTLY recall them.

To me, this doesn't sound like a corp looking for fights. It sounds like an empire looking to apply overwhelming force at every opportunity to win. Which is a totally acceptable policy, fighting to win, however being able to instantly redeploy 100% of your force is very much over powered and is an artifact of poor game design.

Its poor game design because it not only encourages blobbling, it makes it a requirement.

I'm going to say it again, simplier, because some of you will be yelling so loudly at my corp tag that you'll ignore what I'm actually trying to convey.

If there is no travel delay, attackers will always be facing the maximum number of defenders. If one game entity ends up with a significant numerical advantage they can control the whole game world. If attackers have little hope of success, they will simply stop attacking; or more likely morale will suffer and they will just stop logging in to the same effect.

Many, many voices have spoke up in these forums against game mechanics that support blob tactics. A game mechanic that eliminates the need to strategically deploy your defensive troops is a mechanic that supports blob defense.

115 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2013-08-07 20:07:07)

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Re: Spark Teleports

What exactly do you suggest, Arga, other than stating the obvious you are supposed to say(due to affiliation)?

You have to understand spark teleportation is mostly used for non-PVP and -beta activities. Any change in that system has to be carefully considered, not by just looking at one point.

116 Reply by Arga

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Re: Spark Teleports

Burial wrote:

What exactly do you suggest, Arga, other than stating the obvious you are supposed to say(due to affiliation)?

You have to understand spark teleportation is mostly used for non-PVP and -beta activities. Any change in that system has to be carefully considered, not by just looking at one point.

I don't have any suggestion to fix it, that's up to the devs, this is espcially true since I'm not playing atm.

It's easily recognizable as a bad game mechanic (at least as it impacts combat), Devs can take their time to correct it, technically with such low population the impact of any bad mechanic is negliable.

Just to clarify too, I stopped playing before sparks were implemented, so I'm just going on the feedback in this thread. But if missioning and PVE depend on instant travel, that's probably broken too.

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Re: Spark Teleports

The problem is movement not spark teleports. Movement is such a pain in this game and it's know to almost everyone, from newbies to vets. Fixing should start from there.

118 Reply by Arga

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Re: Spark Teleports

Burial wrote:

The problem is movement not spark teleports. Movement is such a pain in this game and it's know to almost everyone, from newbies to vets. Fixing should start from there.

Sure, sparks is obviously movement too though, which makes fixing movement something very very big and complicated; which has been a hot topic for years.

I didn't resurface to help PHM make an arguement for spark timers. I doubt there's enough people playing to make much of a difference either way right now, but I'm still holding out hope that population will increase at steam launch, and if PVP is dominated by large groups of players moving instantly between outposts, I think that will be bad for the game.

If in the mean time there's little or no strategic PVP, that's not really important and perp may lose a few more players short tem, as long as it gets corrected before relaunch they'll come back.

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Re: Spark Teleports

EvE has a 24 cooldown, soon to be modified to 19.
Perp has no cooldown for resparking, other than your PvP flag.

Small Gang PvP is dead in both games. Its not caused by sparks or clone jumping.
Its caused by 2 things ... The size of the playing area relative to the players ... Both Games have a HUGE playing area relative to their persistent online population.
And its full loot drop. Most people are afraid to engage unless they have overwhelming odds (blob) because they pay for and love their pixels.

So lets get off the SpT kills pvp train now?

120 Reply by Arga (edited by Arga 2013-08-07 21:26:49)

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Re: Spark Teleports

Cassius wrote:

EvE has a 24 cooldown, soon to be modified to 19.
Perp has no cooldown for resparking, other than your PvP flag.

Small Gang PvP is dead in both games. Its not caused by sparks or clone jumping.
Its caused by 2 things ... The size of the playing area relative to the players ... Both Games have a HUGE playing area relative to their persistent online population.
And its full loot drop. Most people are afraid to engage unless they have overwhelming odds (blob) because they pay for and love their pixels.

So lets get off the SpT kills pvp train now?

I'm not comparing anything to eve or even suggesting a timer is the right response. However I am saying the ability to move troops around rapidly definetly ENABLES blobbling. I agree 100% that given the opportunity players will blob. I don't think the arguement that players are going to blob means that the game shouldn't try to remove mechanics that enable blobbing; they'll find enough ways to do it on their own.

Edit: accident a word

121 Reply by Ville

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Re: Spark Teleports

@Zortarg:  please read Argas posts.  As always he is correct. 

@Martha:  please read Argas posts.  As always he is correct.

@Merkle:  you heard from crabdis(I know I spelled his name wrong)?  Just wondering how he's doing.

@Dev Zoom:  please hire Arga.  As always he is correct.

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122 Reply by Gunner (edited by Gunner 2013-08-07 23:08:23)

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Re: Spark Teleports

Dev Zoom,


I am pointing out the logical conclusion that if decisions A B C D E F and G have lead us to where we are now, there is a very good chance that a lot of them worked against you.

How few people have to be subbed for you to reach that conclusion?

That is the denial I am trying to bring to light.

I love this game.  I must be in a tiny tiny minority though.  The statistics dont lie.





DEV Zoom wrote:
Gunner wrote:

==== Tactic A

I lure your blob to location A and trick you all to flag up.

You are stuck there for 30 minutes.

I hit location B.

just won EVE

You are so afraid of this simple tactic and this is the tactic that Zoom cant even wrap his head around that he tells us that he just doesnt understand.

Yes, that tactic might work for the first time. After that it will just cripple the gameplay without any advantage to it.

Gunner wrote:

This game is crippled and the quantity of people remaining is an insignificant number.  There are zero people playing right now, imo.

At what amount of subs does the game hit rock bottom?

The remaining players are in denial.  The game isnt dead, but all the decisions that were made in the last two years has lead us to this point, therefore I conclude that some of them are very wrong ones.

You just attributed the demise of the game to a mechanic which 95% of our players don't even reach in the first place.

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Re: Spark Teleports

"Only once"



The rope a dope, as Marta calls it, isnt a trick.

At points in the games future, which I can see clearly, there will be tactical decisions that have to be made to defend Beta thingy at this time or this Gamma thingy or this other thing.  You will have to make tactical decisions.

You guys just cant see the future of things here because you are used to such low activity.

In the future of the game, lets say with 25 player factions (gasp).  You may have to make a choice of just using forces in one area, not in 20 island with 10 guys.   Now, people are operating with 10  guys managing 20 island.

The only way to do that is to be everywhere anytime, with no restrictions.


There has to be a restriction to movement.   My force of 1000 players bouncing stations every 5 seconds four months from now, will be a testament of how crazy the whole concept is.


Its funny because once the very obvious problem is magnified x 1000 you all will say "hmm yeah this is kinda *** up"



I promise you will.

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Re: Spark Teleports

That is narrow and inaccurate.    The PvP stats and ability  of 62nd, <12>, WAR, speak for themselves, my friend.  You guys all know that. If we are on the field, there is a very good chance the people who are opposite our guns are dying.

You took a long long break and have returned to a ghost town which is easy to move in to.  You can try earning it next time. There are only a few people here that can say they worked for it, you are not one of them in this case, Zortarg.



Zortarg Calltar wrote:

i see only one thing. just like i have seen with other in the past year or so:
when ppl were once part of a powerfull coalition there was no problem. now their "power" is gone. and the once small alliance is now the "powerfull" force. i only see the ppl once used to power complaining and *** about some game mechanics that are absolotuly not a problem. and as you have pointed out yourself: the problem is the low population.
its not the spark teleport.
you just cant take a beta with your 4 ppl aianst 14. and thses 14 are th e big bad blob (from your point of view). you *** around and are looking for a skapegoat insted of admitting that you 4 ppl just simply cant beat the 14. and thats your problem. but you cant admit it so you *** about something else. as others have done before you.

this topic was senseless from the start and im done with it.

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Re: Spark Teleports

You never won anything.  You just moved in to a vacant lot.




Martha Stuart wrote:
Gunner wrote:

.

If you cant defend 12 stations day in and day out with 10 people, you have too many stations or not enough people.

We can defend them, you are the ones that are failing.  hence why we control 12 Beta outposts.  this whole thing is about making it easier for your 6 man corp to compete against a fleet.  Sorry, but a small nation shouldn't be able to take on the U.S. military.  You are trying to work the system so everyone else has to play the way you want.