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Re: instant logg out

Burial wrote:

We should do something against logoff traps too. Don't you think those are broken too? It's like what you are talking here only reversed. You keep your forces off the field and then log them in at convenient times.


yeah logg of traps are broken aswell and if u have a good solution then make a new thred and voice your idea.
I dont think any one said it wasent broken and asfar as i know evry one complained abouth loggofski traps.

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Re: instant logg out

Leave a small visible beacon on the field where someone logged off. Make it stay there for 24h or until he logs back in.

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Re: instant logg out

TerraBit wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Something still doesn't add up here.

You see, that fix I mentioned was for the following bug (and it WAS a bug, as in definitely not intended):
- Your safe logout timer gets interrupted when you get locked by someone else, that's pretty clear.
- However, a timer is also running for you when you instalog (instant logout or close the client), which tells the server when to remove your robot from the terrain.
- Locking a robot that was in this removal timer period would also cancel the removal timer, so with time, the islands would have been full with zombie robots standing around.

Nothing else was changed other than fixing this, nothing connected to aggressing or whatever.

We just tested lock and unlock, and lock again 13 times during the time the player was offline  guess what the player still disapered from the ground whit in 2mins

Uh yes, that's what the patch fixed.

Now only the safe logout timer gets interrupted by the lock.

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Re: instant logg out

DEV Zoom wrote:
TerraBit wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Something still doesn't add up here.

You see, that fix I mentioned was for the following bug (and it WAS a bug, as in definitely not intended):
- Your safe logout timer gets interrupted when you get locked by someone else, that's pretty clear.
- However, a timer is also running for you when you instalog (instant logout or close the client), which tells the server when to remove your robot from the terrain.
- Locking a robot that was in this removal timer period would also cancel the removal timer, so with time, the islands would have been full with zombie robots standing around.

Nothing else was changed other than fixing this, nothing connected to aggressing or whatever.

We just tested lock and unlock, and lock again 13 times during the time the player was offline  guess what the player still disapered from the ground whit in 2mins

Uh yes, that's what the patch fixed.

Now only the safe logout timer gets interrupted by the lock.


Whats the diffrence btw those 2?   witch metod wuld u pick if u had to log?

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Re: instant logg out

DEV Zoom wrote:
TerraBit wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Something still doesn't add up here.

You see, that fix I mentioned was for the following bug (and it WAS a bug, as in definitely not intended):
- Your safe logout timer gets interrupted when you get locked by someone else, that's pretty clear.
- However, a timer is also running for you when you instalog (instant logout or close the client), which tells the server when to remove your robot from the terrain.
- Locking a robot that was in this removal timer period would also cancel the removal timer, so with time, the islands would have been full with zombie robots standing around.

Nothing else was changed other than fixing this, nothing connected to aggressing or whatever.

We just tested lock and unlock, and lock again 13 times during the time the player was offline  guess what the player still disapered from the ground whit in 2mins

Uh yes, that's what the patch fixed.

Now only the safe logout timer gets interrupted by the lock.

Think about it.

Why would a safe log be stopped but an instalog wouldn't? This makes safe logging MORE dangerous

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

56 Reply by Rage Blackout (edited by Rage Blackout 2013-12-18 01:36:49)

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Re: instant logg out

People know about it now and the widespread abuse has started.

People are not fighting now, they are just intant logging because they know they are gone from the field in two minutes no matter what happens.

That is really really bad.  For three years it has not been that way.

You were supposed to solve people staying on the field for other reasons, not when they are being shot at or demobed.




DEV Zoom wrote:
TerraBit wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Something still doesn't add up here.

You see, that fix I mentioned was for the following bug (and it WAS a bug, as in definitely not intended):
- Your safe logout timer gets interrupted when you get locked by someone else, that's pretty clear.
- However, a timer is also running for you when you instalog (instant logout or close the client), which tells the server when to remove your robot from the terrain.
- Locking a robot that was in this removal timer period would also cancel the removal timer, so with time, the islands would have been full with zombie robots standing around.

Nothing else was changed other than fixing this, nothing connected to aggressing or whatever.

We just tested lock and unlock, and lock again 13 times during the time the player was offline  guess what the player still disapered from the ground whit in 2mins

Uh yes, that's what the patch fixed.

Now only the safe logout timer gets interrupted by the lock.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."
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Re: instant logg out

Burial wrote:

Leave a small visible beacon on the field where someone logged off. Make it stay there for 24h or until he logs back in.

it does not give u easy kills this way eighter burial if it became like that ppl wuld just run a detector over to take a look around the area.... maybe even drop a Burial modified Armored teleport so its pretty safe to get out any way. smile

  • JOKE
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Re: instant logg out

So you don't want to fix it.

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Re: instant logg out

I am in trouble in my Troijar MK2


now, I instant log and I live

There is a low chance that I will be killed in that time and I know it.



That is not gaming.  That is cheating or metagaming or circumventing other mechanics.



This type of thing can not be in game when we hit Greenlight.


We will have mass logofffski / instant log online  all the time

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."
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Re: instant logg out

Burial wrote:

So you don't want to fix it.

I do but like i said bring that in to a new thred.  this is abouth LOGGING out  wile agressors are all over u

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Re: instant logg out

Jita wrote:

Think about it.

Why would a safe log be stopped but an instalog wouldn't? This makes safe logging MORE dangerous

No, not really. What you say is only true if you are absolutely sure that you will survive those 2 minutes of blackout no matter what.

The safe logout is there so you can be absolutely sure that your robot is removed safely from the terrain and react when something happens during those 2 minutes.

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Re: instant logg out

The problem:


1. A target is aggressed and being shot or demobed.  That person instant logs to avoid death.



Solution:

1. Instant log has an absolute timer of 15 minutes no matter what.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

63 Reply by Rage Blackout (edited by Rage Blackout 2013-12-18 01:53:36)

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Re: instant logg out

Dev Zoom, pvp does not unfold as simply as that.

A person now doesnt safe log because they cant avoid death, they just instant log because they know its broken and they survive.

You drastically changed something that has been in place for three years.

We are talking about mass logoffs of people in PvP zones now and I assure you that is what they will be doing because vetran players in STC are already doing it as we speak.




DEV Zoom wrote:
Jita wrote:

Think about it.

Why would a safe log be stopped but an instalog wouldn't? This makes safe logging MORE dangerous

No, not really. What you say is only true if you are absolutely sure that you will survive those 2 minutes of blackout no matter what.

The safe logout is there so you can be absolutely sure that your robot is removed safely from the terrain and react when something happens during those 2 minutes.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."
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Re: instant logg out

Rage Blackout wrote:

The problem:


1. A target is aggressed and being shot or demobed.  That person instant logs to avoid death.



Solution:

1. Instant log has an absolute timer of 15 minutes no matter what.

No, there has to be another condition. This works for pvp, but not for pve.

When you're shooting npcs and you crash/disconnect/lose your internet/etc. and they kill you because the server did not remove you for 15 minutes then noone gains anything.

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Re: instant logg out

DEV Zoom wrote:

Now only the safe logout timer gets interrupted by the lock.


Dev zoom, this is the root of the problem.  This is the big side effect that you patched in that completely changed the dynamic of living or dying if someone is caught with their pants down or are not going to win.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."
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Re: instant logg out

Maybe we should just go hard-hard core mode, where bots are on terrain all the time. No outposts, no logging.

67 Reply by Rage Blackout (edited by Rage Blackout 2013-12-18 01:59:28)

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Re: instant logg out

Dev Zoom,

The instant/safe was working as intended for three years until there was some glitch and people started staying on the field.

Now, instant log is the solution to getting killed in combat.

I understant what you are saying but why even bother fighting when  your opponents all intant log at the first sign of defeat.

They are aleady doing it.

This must be solved.






DEV Zoom wrote:
Rage Blackout wrote:

The problem:


1. A target is aggressed and being shot or demobed.  That person instant logs to avoid death.



Solution:

1. Instant log has an absolute timer of 15 minutes no matter what.

No, there has to be another condition. This works for pvp, but not for pve.

When you're shooting npcs and you crash/disconnect/lose your internet/etc. and they kill you because the server did not remove you for 15 minutes then noone gains anything.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

68 Reply by Rage Blackout (edited by Rage Blackout 2013-12-18 02:03:10)

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Re: instant logg out

If a player is aggressed in PvP, he can not save himself by instant logging.  It cant be any other way.



A player doing stuff with PVE farming or whatever is another situation and I am certain that the coders can differentiate the two.


This is a core pvp sandbox issue.  It is at the heart and soul of PvP itself.

Combat logging can not be a valid solution, ever.





That being said, more than two minutes on intant could be a middle ground.  5 minutes.

Safe - 2 minutes

Instant - hard 5 minutes


DEV Zoom wrote:
Rage Blackout wrote:

The problem:


1. A target is aggressed and being shot or demobed.  That person instant logs to avoid death.



Solution:

1. Instant log has an absolute timer of 15 minutes no matter what.

No, there has to be another condition. This works for pvp, but not for pve.

When you're shooting npcs and you crash/disconnect/lose your internet/etc. and they kill you because the server did not remove you for 15 minutes then noone gains anything.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."
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Re: instant logg out

Rage Blackout wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Now only the safe logout timer gets interrupted by the lock.


Dev zoom, this is the root of the problem.  This is the big side effect that you patched in that completely changed the dynamic of living or dying if someone is caught with their pants down or are not going to win.

I asked jR, who does the programming of this and he said that we never had any mechanic that would prevent removing a robot from the terrain if you used modules on it. So either we are all victims of a conspiracy or I don't know. The locking issue was a bug as I explained and that had to be fixed.

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Re: instant logg out

This is another thread that can go to your compilation thread "Things that annoy me".

You think it's wrong, I don't think it's wrong. Basically you've been logoff trapping people for years and abused the online/offline system until it bleeded and now you are here QQing when you couldn't kill my Cameleon MK2.

This game is not easymode, perhaps you need to go try Repopulation with Syndic.

71 Reply by Rage Blackout (edited by Rage Blackout 2013-12-18 02:29:19)

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Re: instant logg out

Dev Zoom,

We have been preventing bots from logging out / vanishing from the field for three years.

1. lock and unlock target.  Target will never leave the field.
2. Demob or shoot or any other Pvp related action keeps bot on the field.


It even went so far as:   I am on one char on my account and my friend demobs me. I logout and log in to another char that account and strat playing on that char.  Char 1 is still on the field still for as long as he is demobbed.  I have tested this beyond 15 minutes.


If you didnt know that PvP action kept a player on the field even when he logged out, you have been out of the loop.   (obviously this would be exploiting using this mechanic, this is just an example)


Load up a pre patch on the test server and test it it takes two people.




DEV Zoom wrote:
Rage Blackout wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Now only the safe logout timer gets interrupted by the lock.


Dev zoom, this is the root of the problem.  This is the big side effect that you patched in that completely changed the dynamic of living or dying if someone is caught with their pants down or are not going to win.

I asked jR, who does the programming of this and he said that we never had any mechanic that would prevent removing a robot from the terrain if you used modules on it. So either we are all victims of a conspiracy or I don't know. The locking issue was a bug as I explained and that had to be fixed.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."
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Re: instant logg out

WOW!~!!!!

Says the kings of logoff traps, you and Merkle.  holy *** am I reading this

pot kettle black


your pvp doctrin page one says Logout traps 101


Burial wrote:

This is another thread that can go to your compilation thread "Things that annoy me".

You think it's wrong, I don't think it's wrong. Basically you've been logoff trapping people for years and abused the online/offline system until it bleeded and now you are here QQing when you couldn't kill my Cameleon MK2.

This game is not easymode, perhaps you need to go try Repopulation with Syndic.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."
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Re: instant logg out

Btw this is the report that made us fix the bug (removed names):

Hey. Currently game mechanics allow when a player insta-logs, his bot remains on terrrain for 2 minutes. If another player or NPC locks the player within this time, the bot will remain on terrain, indefinitely, until the player either relogs in or is destroyed. During this period, the modules that were running at the point of insta-log will remain running, even thought the character is offline, targets remain locked. This all correct? because this is what occurs for me, consistently.  With these mechanics in mind, I will have [character1] log off with a mining Scarab running 2 small miners on a liquid mining site. I will then lock him with [character2] before he disappears from terrrain. [character1] will remain on terrain, mining away, until he runs out of charges or becomes full. It takes roughly 29 hours to fill a Scarab full of epi.  At this time he can be shot by anyone, or any wandering NPCs .. so I take it this works as intended?  What makes this advantageous is that on Gamma I can wall him off and he will stay undisturbed by enemies or NPCs ... are you ok with this? I personally do not feel this is an exploited, as the excat same activity and circumstances occur if I simply leave him logged in and mine all night while I sleep.

Where this allows for exploits is I think that theoretically Icould have 2 characters on the same email account and actually have both on terrain. I have not tried this but I feel that is an exploit, as it is currently not possible to log both in when one is online. another possible exploit would be to set up several trial accounts and simply spam mining sequers repeatedly on locations to mine all the liquid. Again I have not tried this but it's possible. Please give me some feedback if I am crossing a line. I will be doing this with 2 characters, *** and ***, Mining Epi and HDT over the next few days. They are separate and paid subscriptions.

It's not all that simple.

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Re: instant logg out

DEV Zoom wrote:
Rex Amelius wrote:

Honestly I always thought I could not log out once even locked by another player, not even aggressed.

It was like that until a few months ago: when you were locked by someone, the server kept you on the terrain indefinitely. This has been reported as a bug because players used it for AFK-mining (or I should say offline-mining) and we fixed it.

I don't remember being aggressed doing anything with this though.

So carebear abuse leads to ultimate carebear protection. I think you used the sword again instead of the scapel.

15 minutes would be sufficient timer over indefinitely.

I don't think module shut off is necessary, as that would effect legit crashes during PvP. 15 minutes is more than enough disincentive for PvP logoffski.

If it takes over 15 minutes to break a tank on green bot, well that is still green balancing issue, not loffoff issue.

Sparking to other games
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Re: instant logg out

DEV Zoom wrote:
Rage Blackout wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Now only the safe logout timer gets interrupted by the lock.


Dev zoom, this is the root of the problem.  This is the big side effect that you patched in that completely changed the dynamic of living or dying if someone is caught with their pants down or are not going to win.

I asked jR, who does the programming of this and he said that we never had any mechanic that would prevent removing a robot from the terrain if you used modules on it. So either we are all victims of a conspiracy or I don't know. The locking issue was a bug as I explained and that had to be fixed.

No one sad modules keept ppl from loging off before...  locking and relocking caused ppl to stay on terrain once takled or found whit their pants down... 


why is it that you DEVs fix things that are not broken and break core game mechanics?