Current situation

NPC drop damaged items at levels all the way from almost destroyed to nearly full health. And field containers on an NPC farming operation, even a small one,  generally have thousands of items in them. Each unstacked, and when bringing the loot to terminal and storing it there, the same items remain unstacked until repaired or recycled.

This is highly inefficient and claims tons of resources, both on client (CPU/GPU) and server (memory/storage). In fact, many people find the field containers become inoperable at some point due to the sheer number of 1 piece stacks.


A better way

Instead of allowing these items to have a health of anywhere from 1% to 100%, allow only 4 levels (25%, 50%, 75% and 100%). In NPC loot, obviously only the levels  25%, 50% and 75% really apply as they must be damaged.


Reaping the benefits

To exploit the benefits this arrangement brings, two more changes are required!

1) Items of the same damage level must be stackable (saves precious resources at every possible level);
2) Field containers must automatically stack, just like a robots cargo hold and private storage in terminals.

Changing the default stacking behavior of field containers is now feasible as we have the new shift-drag-to-storage interface now. Before this change, it would require manually unstacking in order to transfer items to a hauler robots cargo hold.

52

(10 replies, posted in Open discussion)

I enjoyed that (now don't change the link and make me look look a fool).

What you are saying is it takes 16.8 AP to activate, and then every 2 seconds till deactivation, another 16.8 AP.

This would for two cycles (20 seconds) translate to:

Second 0: 16.8 AP activation cost
Second 2: 16.8 AP drain
Second 4: 16.8 AP drain
Second 6: 16.8 AP drain
Second 8: 16.8 AP drain

Second 10: 16.8 AP activation cost
Second 12: 16.8 AP drain
Second 14: 16.8 AP drain
Second 16: 16.8 AP drain
Second 18: 16.8 AP drain

If this is true, they could have just given the module a 2 second cycle time and be done with it, no additional complexity and hidden magic is needed. Sure one can then activate a detector within two seconds of stopping a masker module. But people would still have to wait like 25 seconds for a new activation of the masker module to take effect as the detector has this very long cycle time and the modules work mutually exclusive.

In other words, it works needlessly complex and that alone in my eyes constitutes a game play bug!

I checked the information and it is still broken IMHO, here the examples:

On my Scarab with surface area of 10.5m, a T2 Signal masker should consume 16.8 AP (10.5 x 1.6 AP) every 10 seconds. This should easily run stable on this bot, but it does not.

Compare this to, say the T4 fast extraction nexus. It uses 40 AP every 10 seconds, or 4 AP per second. This module in fact does run stable on the same bot!

Something is clearly wrong

The issue it seems is that while the module activation time is indeed 10 seconds, every second of it, the activation cost is deducted from the accumulator. This makes the module use 10 times as much energy as listed, even with the mechanics of surface area taken into account.

When you do show information, it lists as 2.xx per 10 seconds, instead i see chunks being taken out of around 10 times this!

It will be helpful, thanks!

Dan wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

Walls should be restricted to outpost defense/fortification instead of NPC/Ore trapping and island fortification. As such, they should be limited to a certain range from outposts and only constructible with a certain level of control over an outpost.

As for wall spam examples:

http://clip2net.com/s/1ys0M
http://clip2net.com/s/1yrZ3

You call it a wall spam, I say you are jelly because you don't even own a beta island.

I say you are a mindless troll and choose to further ignore your quite brainless contributions!

Walls should be restricted to outpost defense/fortification instead of NPC/Ore trapping and island fortification. As such, they should be limited to a certain range from outposts and only constructible with a certain level of control over an outpost.

As for wall spam examples:

http://clip2net.com/s/1ys0M
http://clip2net.com/s/1yrZ3

The idea was good, but the restrictions were not.....this is what I propose:

* They work only on same island as you are
* They should detect NPC too
* You can use only 2-3 of them per person and only you get the info
* They should last only for 1-4 hours, long enough for most purposes.

In short they should work like any other deployable in most respects!

I wonder if the idea has been understood. But after a beacon party last night I was busy for almost an hour just to split loot. A few minutes could have sufficed with the changes I propose, it has this much of an impact!

+1

And also assign a hidden lock number to sort on (later locks, will then be always at the bottom).
Right now every frame update the targets jump around in random,  so anything that makes the behavior deterministic is a plus!

I approve of this message smile

+1000

You got a whole bunch of loot and want to divide it N ways, say plasma, kernels, beacons and loot reprocessed into materials. It currently is quite a time consuming and mind numbing process. There are a few ways this can be improved:

1. Create a new version of the unstack option, one that also works when selecting multiple stacks and have the user fill in the number of stacks (aka how many ways it is split among squad members). Result, multiple stacks of equal amounts and the remainders in their own smaller stacks.

2. Something similar, but now by selecting both the items and two or more EMPTY terminal containers. What would be individual stacks under option 1 now goes automatically into an empty container without the need to specify how many stacks are required as that is always equal to the amount of selected empty containers. The remainder, as before will stay in the private storage.

Another "version" of this method, could use corporation storage folders and the main corporation storage. But since players also store stuff in those they wont be empty and a corporation would need to make a bunch of dedicated folders for this in some cases.

The second option is more advanced IMHO and is less clutter, thus easier to move all that is for player A to a folder for player A etc. No need to select individual stacks after the split, which would also still be annoying.

64

(8 replies, posted in Feature discussion and requests)

I definitely would NOT like to see shield mechanics changed in a way that make it yet another type of armor with a HP amount etc. And I would also dislike support and industrial fits to be without any practical defense left other then buffer as lowering shield absorption would do for example.

Arga,

I agree with you a communist style run corporation will not all of a sudden wanting to go out and spend big time creating demand. Even while it will create spare time away from their production activities and into PvP. It is their mindset, and that won't change because of my ideas smile.

Players in self-sufficient corporations are clearly different and their structure is less rigid. Now, is it beneficial for them to go open market? I would say yes. That is if they are in the business of PvP and want to do that as much as possible. Any time spend on being self sufficient at item production is time not spend doing PvP. This becomes all the more important with a small player base. The value added per unit of play time for producing low end items is miserable compared to what they are most likely capable of doing the same on the high end. Which means more time doing PvP, which increased overall demand for all the lower tier items as well! People do tend to loose stuff in combat smile.

What goes for self-sufficient corps also goes for 'other' corps doing PvP, for the same reasons, but they might do other kinds of productive activity to get the NIC required to participate in combat. NeX, obviously ex EVE players that left that game in Rage and left again is hardly a case for either side of the argument here.

The % of those players that were, as you put it diverted, is much too small to have any significant impact on the open market. By which I specifically mean, even if the tax was the SAME or Zero on both internal and open markets, the volume of sales that would migrate off internal markets would be NEGLIGABLE.

Hard to argue against that clear logic that as it is most likely right assuming self-sufficient corps keep being that way by not interacting with the market in any significant way. But negligible is still progress if you ask me for such a tiny change and i would not worry too much about the long term in the current situation. There always will be the case that if existing corporations do not change their mindset, nothing will change whatever the devs decide. My view is that in such a case, we all loose out on more intense activity and thus a more active game!

While soundly put, your case can also be taken and explained differently where the reverse conclusion to yours would be valid too. Currently we clearly have such a thing as idle or slowed down demand. What ain't there or cannot be seen by players can't and will not be bought! My personal experience in this game has been that nearly always when I needed something, it was not in sufficient (or any) volume in corp or out corp via the market interface.  Thus no quick and reliable access to needed items. NOT buying and/or completing a bot means NOT fitting it and thus NOT using it and thus guaranteed NOT loosing it. And thus no need to replace it either smile.

If you measure demand given by current activity, you are missing this demand and then there is the delayed demand due to the time based learning. I would buy seth if I had the extensions for it, but i don't so will not buy it yet smile. The simple fact is that loosing higher tier bots and items creates more demand then loosing lower tier items and thus generates less activity.

Academics still try to dismiss it (it doesn't fit their currently failing models that well), but there truly is also such a thing as supply side economics. No one wanted a television, until the first one could be bought. Would any of you have missed an iPod if Apple did not bring it on market? I think the answer is a resounding NO! While not a perfect analogy with our in-game situation (we cannot invent new items), it does nicely demonstrate that measuring current sales activity can in fact grossly understate future demand. There was before the TV came out, zero demand for it and thus no one put up buy orders for them in anticipation of its arrival:).

So I think you have to let go of the basis of your argument, which was that future market activity can be based on looking at todays activity and the way corporations now go about their business in terms of market interaction. Things can change and probably need to quite drastically. If it was me I would go further then just the TAX system! Putting everything in one market might be overkill I realize now, but I see no case not to have T1 and T2 be forced public. It certainly has potential to create more activity and a more active environment for new players. But again, if players refuse and fall back in old ways of evading every bit of interaction and at any cost, nothing will help!

I still got two questions for anyone that has an opinion against tax reform (which offers good incentive to outpost mechanics too if your tax there depends on the level of control for example).

The questions I am talking about:

1. Do you have any rationale why a 12% tax is good to start with?

2. Do you have any rationale why using market facilities in a public terminal, for corporation use, should be exempt from tax that is otherwise applied?

Ghorasia wrote:

Change is good in the right direction.

People QQing on forums about nothing but crap does not push change in that right direction.

Especially since the Devs are taking the words written in tears on these forums so seriously.

Crap is you opinion, but you just sound resentful that way and it makes me wonder if you even have an idea what the right direction is. What will keep people "stick" with this game according to you?

Do you have any rationale why a 12% tax is good to start with?
Do you have any rationale why using market facilities in a public terminal, for corporation use, should be exempt from tax that is otherwise applied?

Saying it is all crap and moving in the wrong direction is just not going to cut it as an argument!

Ghorasia wrote:

Stop QQing its a sandbox deal with it !

If that is your statement, you don't mind change then smile

Arga wrote:

Reason 2 however, is interesting. What could motivate someone with an item in inventory, not to sell it (assuming they are a capitalistic player of course)?

The reason you seem focused on, is that they can't sell it for profit. However, this is in contradiction to your statement that the item isn't on the market at all. Simply put, if there's no competition for the item, then they can sell it for profit.

If the item is on the market, but available at a cost lower then they can sell it for, then the market is working as intended, and buyers get what they need at the best price.

If however no one is buying, even at prices below cost, then changing the tax isn't going to fix that, because demand isn't being controlled by price.

tl;dr - If vetern players can't create demand with game mechanics based lowest pricing, changing tax rates isn't going to allow new players to generate price based demand.

And if the tl;dr is still tl;dr; Market needs more demand, ie. more players.

The more obvious reason is that a lot of trade simply has been diverted to internal markets. Markets which in many situations will not be functioning properly either due to lack of volume. Now we can argue on how this came to be and all that, but one reason for sure is the evasion of TAX. So a good solution to start is to undo that imbalance!

Reversing past mistakes opens the way for players to adopt in the other direction. Right now it even is hard to sell something that is cheap and you know there is demand for. Simply because few use the open market anymore, all is invested in the corporation markets (with all problems that follow from that).

I would find timestamps (minus the date) still useful before messages listed in my log, but thats just me smile.

My original proposal states that there is no real reason for lower tier items (ores, T1 items, even T2)  not to be on the open market. My proposed changes to the tax system would make it easier for newer players to operate in the market with a lesser disadvantage then they currently experience. Right now, they are basically clubbed to death at everything they try sell/produce as the market is near dead and every transaction costs them a fortune on top. They end up having to do nearly everything them self, just to get something that is competitive enough to sell and even then the question remains how long it will take to sell. 12% tax is still 7% after 5 levels of tax reduction. It is a substantial amount that is more then double and close to triple the amount some real industries hold as their profit margin!

I also made the argument that corporations shielding their production (and common ores) from the market is not necessarily the best way to go (certainly not for the game as a whole). But the tax system as it is, steers corporations this way as there is an instant advantage versus the open market which is highly visible on every transaction, the TAX.

Opening up by providing a cheaper market will give newer industrial players a sense of living in an active world where they can meaningfully contribute to on their own without having to mine for everything they make them self. They might just stick around longer and have a positive effect that way on the player base as a whole, which is good.

Then there is that markets create competition and with it relevant/accurate prices based on the actual supply and demand of the time, which will make shortages less of an issue. You rather mine/produce something that has more demand if it gives you more bang for the buck, don't you? Well I sure do and the prices right now seem totally arbitrary as  a shortage of ore A does nearly nothing to the price for a very long time. So miners either mine deliberately at a loss to them selfs in order to service their own corporation or they add to the pile of overpriced ore due to lack of internal competition just to earn more. The later having the effect it really does not help output at all as it is not the bottleneck that needs to be solved. That is what artificial habit based pricing does to a system, corporation internal or otherwise!

Either way is not healthy if you'd ask me!

Also to consider that corporations/producers outsourcing lower tiers of production should be advantageous as they do not have to "waste" production lines which they can perfectly well use for the higher tier items or to manage a more versatile set of production lines! This should compensate for the lesser production efficiency of newer industrialist producing lower tier items.

But for all the mechanics to work, it is important to have common ore supplies and low tiered items to be traded openly as that is what everything is made off. It all starts at the bottom after all and some decent priced buy orders for T1 or T2 modules can go a long way to get things going. It won't happen overnight, but I am sure eventually it will and TAX reduction will help. Right now, I do not see much out there that incentives new players that want to go into production to actually go for it...and that is bad!

And I think we all agree we need more players and things will get better when we get there. I say changing the TAX system is a good way to start, even if it is just a very tiny first step! Helping to retain more players that try out this game with a fairer playing field and actual market incentives to participate in production chains can only be good.

Annihilator wrote:

that 12m is based on what? market price of raw ores? buy or sell orders?

im sure i could go even lower with the price if i only calculate the mining ammo... or even lower if i only calculate the artifact scan charges + factory fees...

Open market producers don't give their products away, there will be a large enough margin in there!

Annihilator wrote:

your assuming that the price is a scam price.

please more details about that please.

Current market offer: 22m
Sell prices of transactions in the last two months 14-16m
Price six months ago: 17m
Quote from a producer (that does not have the item in stock at this moment): 12m

And all the above prices are for low transaction volumes as most has been direct trade and corporation internal only trades. My expected price in an unified open market right now would be closer to that 12m then 15m, so 22m is clearly overpriced (knowingly or unknowingly, likely the later).

Prices in this market are close to random and it is due to lack of volume and participants!

Annihilator wrote:

you still want to force corps to put their assets onto the open market. why?

My original post did not call for forced trade in one open market, it merely stated changes in the TAX system.
Please read my first post again to make sure you understood what I wrote.

Annihilator wrote:

transfer this to real world:
The American Armed forces set up a Tank Factory to produce the best tank of the world, and any American military base can order the Tanks they need to accomplish their job for free of production costs.

Now an intelligent guy comes and tells you that you have to place those Tanks on the public market, because the world market for best tanks lacks offers and the world market for Tanks would fall apart because you deliver them to your own country for free or production costs.

Thes special thing about those tanks is, that the Factory doesn't need to buy ANY material for it from the worldmarket because they can gather and reprocess anything they need from their sourroundings. They dont even need Oil from Terror-countries, or electronics from asian market. The Factory is fully self sufficient and has no use for this thing called "Dollar" except for paying their workers... and this they get from the US Gouverment.

i wonder how many guys now can see the connection of that story with perpetuum....

However unrealistic your example is, I will play along smile and will answer in spirit.

Who is the US government in this, the sold plasma (only thing that hands NIC besides missions)? And is all plasma to be donated to the American forces?  If so, then there is no need for a market at all, just a shared corporation folder will do for both buys and sells!

This however is not how individuals, even as part of a corporation, will like to play. Sure all is nice when there is a stash you can draw from and never did any work for, but there is a flip side for that situation too.

Wouldn't you like to see an active market with realistic prices due to improved competition and many more participants then is possible with corporation only market? Don't you see how the market fragmentation is hurting nearly everyone and is wasteful playtime wise?

Here is a real current example:

Today I wanted to to buy a mkII bot for which I gathered enough EP and there exists only one (scam priced) on the whole world market, with none in corporation either. Not that it is a rare bot or something, but it is just that supply and demand can't find each other efficiently with the fragmented markets we have now. On the other side of the coin is  a seller wondering why he can't get rid of this one bot as fast as he expected as he knows there must be demand for it.

With it I would spend more NIC for fitting it out, all transactions not happening because of the same problem. The system is quite frozen and that needs changing desperately! If anything in this game needs to improve, it is exactly this!

Expanding further

In my previous reply I suggested a variation based on your idea Alexander and I want to describe and evolve it a step further,  so everyone can see to what marvel it leads!


A rebate system

A rebate system implicitly enables corporation and standing based rebating! A rebate is configurable and adjustable after you put up the order the normal way. Looking at the market orders, next to the price column there will be a rebate price column which shows how much you really pay with the corporation/standing based rebate taken into account.


Managing fine grained rebates in a changing political landscape

An option to make setting up order rebates easier and enable a corporation policy would be to use standings based rebate percentage settings as part of a policy. The rebate links to the policy the user chooses to when setting up a order and this includes policies made available by the corporation too. Changing the policy changes also changes the rebates of all order using said policy. This can accommodate changes in the political landscape easily. Removing the policy undoes the rebates and the orders stay on market with their public price as they were before.


Final word

I think it would be an awesome system, quite easy to use and better then any I seen anywhere before!  All market transactions happen in one big market, accessible to everyone willing and able to pay the public price. It is a great staring point for market forces to ignite competition and start doing their work while offering easy fine grained price differentiation based on standings. It would certainly evolve how we do business in this game.

To make sure we still don't see outrage exploitations, we could impose a limit to the rebate percentages listed in policies managed by corporations. It would be a bummer if a corporation exec changes all rebates to 100% rebate and buys up everything for him self and then leaves.

And I have to say it Alexander, you got quite an ingenious BUTT if that is where it came from wink

Alexander wrote:

OKAY HERE COMES ANOTHER IDEA STRAIGHT FROM MY BUTT TO THE FORUMS:

When you sell something on the market you set a sell price and then an OPTIONAL corp price. The corp price (If sold) is done so without tax. You still pay a listing fee to put the item on the market as you should when selling to the public or just the corporation but only pay tax if someone from the public market buys your item.

This way all items on the market will be buy-able if you have enough NIC but we will see a lot of very expensive items (That can be easily undercut) but the market will at least LOOK active.

If the idea is to create an Illusion of activity (Because there is simple NO way to attract people to sell on the public market when they can direct trade cheaper anyway to their own corporation members) then this will do what you asked. Prices will seem high but also seem easily undercut encouraging more market and price wars.


This has merit, and it very much depends on the details if it will work positive or negative (I explain shortly).


The positive:

It will work very well if it is based on a rebate system instead of dual pricing. Sell order fees for example must be based on the public price and the buyer should be able to pay the public price in order for a transaction to take place just as is today. After the transaction the rebate system cam take over and deposit the rebate back.

Sales tax (which i feel should still be there in the lowered form) should be applied on the public price too. In this form, your proposal would go further then what I asked for in this thread and it will make the market a lot better then with the changes I proposed alone.


The negative:

This will implicitly explain why I made the above tweaks to your idea. The danger is that public prices will be set to insane levels just to make them NOT publicly sell. While at the same time the corporation only prices are set to a very affordable. The insane prices will NOT improve competition, not give any indication of what items really trade for and you end up with a market looking sick, full with scams!


My conclusion:

The modifications to your quite ingenious idea will keep prices and access to items reasonable. Because implicitly there will be a penalty if some corp still wants ridiculous public pricing and it will be in the form of the public sales fee, public sales tax and a higher purchase threshold for the corporation buyer as he needs to be able to cover that higher public price too.

In the end sellers will find it much easier to sell their items without hurting the corporation and at the same time, buyers will find it much easier to find what they seek. And after all is the very reason a big market needs to exist, it will make us all better off!


So what do you think?