801 (edited by Burial 2013-09-06 22:06:36)

Re: Spark Teleports

Interzone is a lot more flexible there though. If I remember right, you can pretty much reach both of the Beta1 and Beta2 internal teleport networks from any Alpha2 terminal. With sparking to a Beta terminal, you actually might have to travel to adjacent Beta island for your errand. Theoretically you can have 1 spark on all of the beta islands, but even then, it still doesn't magically teleport you to wherever you need to be on the island(Interzone could easily get you much closer).

Only difference with spark cooldown is that there would be less scouting around on empty Beta islands. Once eyes and probes appear and some danger starts to present itself to the scout, doubt that much looking around will be done anyway.

What I see on Beta islands right now is the blob mentality. Not saying it's bad, just adding a cooldown to sparks won't really change that. SAP times are known and even if two vital SAPs happen at the same time and you lose 1, doubt they clash again next time.

(Here's another idea: Deliberately change it so different island outposts have clashing SAP times all the time: Laosura same as New Crimea and Brightstone, all the time. Nauwy same as Koykili and Karapyth etc. Good luck to anyone trying to hold more than 1 or two island of the same type)

33 and still going. o/

802 (edited by Shadowmine 2013-09-06 22:02:04)

Re: Spark Teleports

So you want to totally nerf the indy uses of SpT to slow down power projection by 3 minutes? If I spark to my gamma to hand someone a t4 geoscanner. it shouldn't lock that character from sparking for the next 4 hours...


Edit: And lets not forget the ability of the attacker to now leave the island while flagged. Its not like he has to sit there and wait out his pvp flag anymore...

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

803 (edited by Lemon 2013-09-06 22:20:44)

Re: Spark Teleports

I did not think I needed to be this blunt but Yes, a flat cooldown would not do much to solve anything but create fustrations. However a flat timer will hamper the extreme abuse it wont stop anyone who is well prepared from working around it.

As with any discussion it is up to the interpreter to decipher sound discussion from smeared *** but to each their own.

Edit:

Lets work towards a real fix

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
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804

Re: Spark Teleports

Shadowmine wrote:

So you want to totally nerf the indy uses of SpT to slow down power projection by 3 minutes? If I spark to my gamma to hand someone a t4 geoscanner. it shouldn't lock that character from sparking for the next 4 hours...

...

You don't have to select a bot, it shouldn't trigger the timer. It still allows you to remotely manage.

805 (edited by Shadowmine 2013-09-06 23:58:54)

Re: Spark Teleports

Not this again.....


Edit: And here I thought we were making progress....

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

806 (edited by Celebro 2013-09-07 00:05:21)

Re: Spark Teleports

Lemon wrote:

Lets work towards a real fix

Some of us have offered several fixes, seems no one is willing to compromise or listen.

No sparking to islands with intrusion events 1hr before they start until completion. Still may not fix all the issues but its a start.

RIP PERPETUUM

807

Re: Spark Teleports

Shadowmine wrote:

Not this again.....


Edit: And here I thought we were making progress....

You used an example that wouldn't be an issue. Just keeping you honest.

Re: Spark Teleports

Celebro wrote:

Some of us have offered several fixes, seems no one is willing to compromise or listen.

That should be apparent by just looking at the pages we have in this thread. big_smile

Re: Spark Teleports

1) add a cooldown of 15 minutes after death where you cant undock

2) limit number of sparks to five

3) Limit to two sparks on any beta

810

Re: Spark Teleports

Also posting to say I love the idea of conflicting intrusions.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Spark Teleports

24 hour reactivation just to say...

+1 Spark Nerf

oh and...

PvP Force Projection is THE issue
I've read this whole thread and agree that it is a bad idea to give players the ability to mobilize PvP forces to multiple places on the map almost instantaneously ...over and over and over. Tactical mobilization needs more limits than the current system provides. Others have explained this well so I will not do it again. I will say Blobz are bad, ok. Time and space warping Blobz are even worse. Make those *** walk!

Missions not a Spark Issue
Sure you mission whores have made a bundle but sparks should not be changed for that reason. Devs have said they are working on missions, so work on them. Thanks.

Market Orders not a Spark Issue.
Yup, I get it. You guys are using your sparks to move from terminal to terminal to buy sell or whatever. Market orders need to have their remote mechanics tweaked, not Sparks for that reason. Devs have said they are working on market mechanics, so work on them. Thanks.

Extended Flag / Modified Flag
I don't like the extended flag idea, mainly because I like to be able to dock when the fighting is over. I used to like the idea of some type of modified flag that still allows you to dock, but not spark for xx minutes. But Arga talked me out of that idea with problem that not everyone flags. So you can still project force and spark away.

Logistics to Stock the Base
It is nearly irrelevant that one has to first place bots and gear in the target terminal. The logistics involved can be done easily, especially when individuals are using shared corporate resources. This 'limitation' can be overcome one time, and then it's free spark sailing. Limitation needs to be Persistent!

Standings Limitation
Like the bot stocking limitation you only have to do this once, then its free spark sailing. I still like this limitation ONLY IF getting spark related standing in one place limits you to getting spark related standings elsewhere. Otherwise it's just an annoyance, easily overcome with squad afk standings grinding. And for those who like have standings everywhere, no need to mess with that (beyond my knowledge or caring). Devs can add a few new Spark related standings corps that work against each other. High standings one, low standings the others.

Global Cooldown
At least for current mission and market reasons adding a global cool down will only make game-play terribly boring. Waiting for a timer may be worse than sitting in traffic. It does not matter that "you can do something else" while waiting for the timer when you don't have something else to do (or want to do). I only want to limit the ability for unrestricted massive PvP force mobilization. Global Cooldown is far too broad a fix in a game that has an already difficult transportation system.

Localized Cooldown
I kinda like the idea of creating a cooldown that is terminal (or island) specific. You can spark to a terminal (or island) and then off again, but you cannot go back for (1 or 4 or 24 hours). This can hamper the issues Lemon brought up. Alone it is NOT sufficient, however.

Kilometer Restrictions
I think Celebro and Sundial are onto another good one. That is some type of distance related spark limitation. Perhaps put in a daily kilometer cap on how far one can spark. Make it accumulate by the minute like EP. I don't know what that cap should be.

Unrestricted and Restricted Sparks
Another idea is to create different types of sparks. Unrestricted sparks let you spark spark spark like the current system, but you only get two and can set them only once every xx hours or days. These can be placed in locations anywhere on alpha, beta or gamma. For example, one on an Alpha market hub and another on your beta or gamma base. Then you can have another 5 or so restricted sparks wherever. Those will have global or local cooldowns and/or kilometer restrictions. Also put a placement cap on these so you have to wait some time to move them.

Motivation for Spark Nerf
I am blown away by the 'corporation dialogue' mindset that believes spark nerf is motivated by current political climate. It makes me sad to see some names I know so spastically sure this is all politically motivated. Well guess what... it is politically motivated. But it's not about you STC, it's about future powerhouses dominating this game with hundreds, not 10.

Timing
Why now? I remember the day sparks came out Gunner told me that without limitations it was broken. I agreed as I sparked and sparked and sparked. When steam comes people will get addicted just like you all are addicted now.  No drugs for the children.

First Steps
Perhaps Localized Cooldowns combined with Daily Kilometer Restrictions are good first steps. Devs can start out with low local timers and high daily caps and work it out from there. But first, you need to fix missions and market mechanics. And add some more highways dammit!

oh and where are my new bots!!!!

Unfortunately, aside from global cooldown or removal of spark system completely I cannot think of a TRUE solution to the Force Projection Issue. Most solutions will hamper other types of game-play. I do hope, ZOOM and the the other Devs at least come to recognize that unrestricted PVP mobilization is BAD in a game that hopes to have locally controlled zones.

Sparking to other games

812 (edited by Merkle 2013-09-07 19:38:02)

Re: Spark Teleports

Looking over the current spark restrictions doesn't mean they are not there.

You confirm this is politically motivated without saying why. 

Its because you were losing bots, and bases.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

813 (edited by Sundial 2013-09-07 19:55:52)

Re: Spark Teleports

Its pretty clear SpT is another feature like the original walls and original proximity probes that was added to the game so hopelessly unrestricted it was destined to be abused to no end. This was realized by most people on day one. Sadly we were too busy dealing with building/defending our sandcastles to make much of a public fuss about it. Also at the time it personally benefited my corporation (CIR) and we abused it to no end too to do the same things STC does to their enemies now. One moment we were on gamma safely mining in Rivaler Mk2's and spamming beacons, the next we were taking a sap from M2S on Hokogaros and a bit later we were back on our island mining uninterrupted ready to defend if necessary.

Rex is right about allowing instant travel in region localized games... It tears at the very foundation of the game itself when you completely trivialize that element.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

814 (edited by Rex Amelius 2013-09-07 21:41:48)

Re: Spark Teleports

Merkle wrote:

Looking over the current spark restrictions doesn't mean they are not there.

The restrictions are 10 sparks, 1000 nic per spark, 10000 nic per spark placement, and need for player to go to terminal ONE time to place spark and equipment. You are right there are restrictions. I'm saying those restrictions are a joke.

Merkle wrote:

You confirm this is politically motivated without saying why.

I think Sundial's explanation of the Force Projection Issue is about the most eloquent version. Others made good points. I don't need to rehash. You can re-read them from Gunner, Arga, Celebro, Lemon and others in this thread.

Normally, Merkle I count you in the group of sound-minded forum posting players. But in this instance you just cannot seem to see beyond corp tags for some reason. Perhaps in the game's current no-population it really is not a big deal. It will become more of an issue as populations grow. You want players settling in regions and not hop-skipping the globe at will, unrestricted. Being able to be in 10 strategic locations almost instantly is a HUGE advantage for a group that has numerical superiority. Even if the map increased to 100 islands you could still dominate far and wide from your local home.

But hey, if this game does not care about localizing power, then why not enhance it? Just make sparks universal. Remote instal them bad boys. And with the potential for everyone to form in one spot for epic battles I'm sure the servers would be lag free.

Spark to Blackscreen!!!

Merkle wrote:

Its because you were losing bots, and bases.

NO YOU!!! mad

If you are referring to Gamma Ghost Town Expedition, I was not there. No one was that I'm aware. Same goes for Beta. Congrats on all your mission hubs. You won Population-Free Perpetuum.

Again, Merkle and other STC members who are still bent on thinking that the motivation behind a spark nerf is to stop STC & Friends from touching others in mean places.  Its not. The people making arguments against unrestricted Spark mobilization are thinking about something called the future. It does not matter if it's STC, CIR, or XYZ.

It's the Mechanic, Stupid

Sparking to other games

Re: Spark Teleports

Old dev blog pre- gamma wrote:

We’re not only adding new islands, we’re also revamping the entire connection network of the current alpha and beta ones. Some of you have voiced your concerns, and we also feel that the current teleport network is so dense that it makes the world feel rather small. Being able to jump quickly from one end to the other also renders any kind of long-range transport routes near obsolete. The same is true for living on beta islands, with the main trading hubs (currently the alpha terminals) being just a few minutes away.

Spark teleporting also effects these concerns.

RIP PERPETUUM

816

Re: Spark Teleports

Tux wrote:

Plain & simple your gonna have to remove Spark Teleport completely for power projection to be affected ... cooldowns do nothing

Are the Devs willing to go that far ?

^

Yeah what that guy said

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Spark Teleports

Tux wrote:
Tux wrote:

Plain & simple your gonna have to remove Spark Teleport completely for power projection to be affected ... cooldowns do nothing

Are the Devs willing to go that far ?

^

Yeah what that guy said

Self praise best praise ?

818

Re: Spark Teleports

Tux wrote:
Tux wrote:

Plain & simple your gonna have to remove Spark Teleport completely for power projection to be affected ... cooldowns do nothing

Are the Devs willing to go that far ?

^

Yeah what that guy said

If you limited sparks to five with two on beta you limit force projection but not so punitively that you don't have defensive benefits to ownership.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Spark Teleports

Tux wrote:
Tux wrote:

Plain & simple your gonna have to remove Spark Teleport completely for power projection to be affected ... cooldowns do nothing

Are the Devs willing to go that far ?

^

Yeah what that guy said

Exactly. And the blood-sparking needs to be removed too / nerfed.

Only way to limit is to force players to spend time moving and even then, atleast for Betas, the effect wouldn't be very good.

820

Re: Spark Teleports

A dynamic that could soft limit this would be maybe some sort of generator system with outposts that allowed it to be tweaked as the populations rise and fall to only allow a "alpha" amount to spark in to a outpost within any given time frame. each spark uses power that recharges or something.

It could tie in to the level of facilities (making this a facility?)

Just spit balling here.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

821

Re: Spark Teleports

You guys act as though sparking is the ONLY travel method.  I got an idea, right click activate then undock!  4 hr global cooldown.  Promote the future!

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Re: Spark Teleports

support the future and login.

2nd Top Killer 2012
02: 061 -- 353 -- 292 : Xadhoom


"Annihilator no fix for crashes when fighting burial/merkle/xadhoom ?"

823

Re: Spark Teleports

8 hr cooldown!  For the future!  Think of the children!

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Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
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824 (edited by Celebro 2013-09-11 00:00:28)

Re: Spark Teleports

Stop removing stuff from Gamma, and get this free instant travel fixed Devs.

Btw good posting Rex.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Spark Teleports

Don't remove a thing...you are doing a great job Dev's

2nd Top Killer 2012
02: 061 -- 353 -- 292 : Xadhoom


"Annihilator no fix for crashes when fighting burial/merkle/xadhoom ?"