Re: Spark Teleports

DEV Zoom wrote:
Martha Stuart wrote:

@ DEV Zoom, if there is a large influx of players with the steam launch do you and the rest of the DEV's feel the Spark system is a broken mechanic?  I would also like to point out the this mechanic must be looked at through the eyes of a larger players base with multiple power blocks, not the current situation.

I don't know about the others but if you ask me, I don't think it's broken even if a million players come in. Yes it's a different game than it was before, but I wouldn't call it broken. But that's why we have all of you to provide sane feedback if we go bonkers on something.


Dev Zoom: Why in your opinion is it not broken?

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Re: Spark Teleports

Celebro wrote:

Dev Zoom: Why in your opinion is it not broken?

Simply said, because you can do the same things that you could do before there was a spark teleport system, only without long and boring walks.

603 (edited by Celebro 2013-08-23 15:17:10)

Re: Spark Teleports

DEV Zoom wrote:
Celebro wrote:

Dev Zoom: Why in your opinion is it not broken?

Simply said, because you can do the same things that you could do before there was a spark teleport system, only without long and boring walks.


I agree with that, but that's not why I think it's broken.


It's broken simply because you can move large forces in an instant and control the whole game easily with large numbers, and no drawbacks.

edit :Blobbing will be the default and only tactic, small corps will see this and either avoid pvp or leave the game. = less pvp.

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604 (edited by Burial 2013-08-23 15:19:40)

Re: Spark Teleports

Celebro try to play a bit without sparks. Give it a week. Can you do it?

INB4 rage and s**tstorm.

Re: Spark Teleports

Celebro wrote:

It's broken simply because you can move large forces in an instant and control the whole game easily with large numbers, and no drawbacks.

I would argue that this is an incentive to own a base (be it beta or gamma). The problem is when this is such a big advantage for the defenders that it becomes very hard or impossible to conquer them. Is it?

606 (edited by Celebro 2013-08-23 15:20:46)

Re: Spark Teleports

Burial wrote:

Celebro try to play a bit without sparks. Give it a week. Can you do it?

Burial I like the instant teleport too, but like in life, you can't have your cake and eat it too. It's too OP for large forces that want to abuse it, I don't think STC is making the most of it tbh. edit not saying they should.

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607 (edited by Burial 2013-08-23 16:38:57)

Re: Spark Teleports

Abuse it how exactly? Move somewhere, wipe the floor in 5min and move back out somewhere else?

You are seriously underestimating what 4-5 smaller powerblocks can do against one big entity.

PVP fights take time. We already suggested to add longer PVP timer so even after the fight, majority of the force would be unable to dock and spark somewhere else, effectively making them choose when is best to fight and best to stand down, but for some reason it didn't suit your side very well. When a fight takes 1hour and you are 30min unable to dock up and spark, there's big enough window for a lot of activities from the other side. What more can you want?

Celebro wrote:

It's not possible to do anything about it correct ,you know, they just need to instant spark there and defend it with full numbers so why bother, if a smaller force wants it.

You can do exactly the same without sparks.

I couldn't care less about Beta islands in the current state of things but if you want to change core game mechanics that are used extensively in other parts of the game just on "prophecies" and hunches there needs to be a lot more proofs and way more gain.

608 (edited by Celebro 2013-08-23 15:27:56)

Re: Spark Teleports

DEV Zoom wrote:
Celebro wrote:

It's broken simply because you can move large forces in an instant and control the whole game easily with large numbers, and no drawbacks.


The problem is when this is such a big advantage for the defenders that it becomes very hard or impossible to conquer them. Is it?

It's not possible to do anything about it correct ,you know, they just need to instant spark there and defend it with full numbers so why bother, if a smaller force wants it (edit) they cant win, only option they have is join bigger force or get recruiting more than the others, because its a game of 'who has more active players'.

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Re: Spark Teleports

Burial wrote:

You can do exactly the same without sparks.


Yes you can, but you couldn't hold all the OPs, maybe just 1 or 2, and smaller forces have more possibilities that they can win in a remote location, but now remote location does not mean anything.

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Re: Spark Teleports

So this is really about a scenario where a smaller force could ninja-take a SAP, because without sparks the major force would not be able to get there in time on foot? (Assuming they are not there in the first place.)

611 (edited by Celebro 2013-08-23 15:59:09)

Re: Spark Teleports

DEV Zoom wrote:

So this is really about a scenario where a smaller force could ninja-take a SAP, because without sparks the major force would not be able to get there in time on foot? (Assuming they are not there in the first place.)

Yes but not only ninja-take SAPs, also pvp can occur,because in turn if the bigger force wants to own many betas, they would need to divide the forces to defend. Right now there is no divide, they can go all in, full force, to any station. (If the full force is already there to defend it's fair game).

One successful RL strategy 'Divide and conquer' (Probably the best to beat large forces)

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612 (edited by Burial 2013-08-23 16:05:20)

Re: Spark Teleports

Celebro, for some reason you are under assumption there's no drawbacks to sparking, while there are. Spark teleport limits, logistics involved, locked outposts and so on, not to mention you still have to travel accross the islands to reach SAPs on neighboring islands and so on - which is exactly the same thing that would happen without spark teleportation(walk from Alpha2 terminal to Beta2).

Let's leave that behind for a moment. I want to point out there are many drawbacks trying to keep all outposts for yourself. Look at the intrusion times and think how long even the biggest entity can hold all the SAPs protected, even with spark teleportation, against 4-5 smaller forces while full well knowing if they're not at their A-game, they could get wiped and SAP could be taken. People burn out and spark teleportation is not an instant i-win button, there still is a lot of work involved and it comes out nowhere in this game as clearly as trying to protect a lot of SAPs 24/7.

For some reason, the people who lost Dom are saying that they quit and they "gave us the island" but I remember very well of us ninjaing their SAPs for weeks while they all were under combined protection of 12, 62nd, PHM, CHAOS, CIR, AIC and friends. People burn out and we eventually got what we wanted, against superior numbers.

In the end, give beta islands more meaning and people will fight more furiously over the control.

613 (edited by Celebro 2013-08-23 16:07:56)

Re: Spark Teleports

Burial you are saying 'people burned out so you took SAPs'? That has nothing to do with sparks. Don't sidetrack the issue here.

Lets say you lead a corp of 20 members eager to take a beta, so you attempt to take SAPs, but a force of 100 bots show up, so no chance. Ok lets try another OP and same thing happens not matter what OP you try and take, because the force of 100 can be anywhere at anytime.

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614 (edited by Burial 2013-08-23 20:48:15)

Re: Spark Teleports

No Celebro, what I'm trying to point out is that your whole argument is based on powerblock owning a lot/all the beta outposts while conveniently leaving out how much work it actually is to do it. You are trying to screw a lot of players over while not realising that even without sparks, defending SAPs would execute in similar manner.

About your example:
This is, again, just part of the bigger picture. You are again, conveniently, leaving out a lot of facts. When you look today's SAP times, you see one of the biggest facts you closed your eye on. SAP times: 14:00, 13:53, 12:37, 12:08, 12:03, 11:49, 11:47, 11:47.. and it goes on. You see how many times are all together? And this happens 24/7! Now you mention that 100 man force is in one outpost, protects it and then suddely appears from another outpost. You again leave out big, well-know fact: You have only 10 sparks, combined with another fact that you would need way more sparks than just 10, not to mention delete your gamma sparks and actually train Spark Teleportation 10 on all of your 100 players - and you are still not even close to your example! Now you might say "But you only need to have spark on 3 beta terminals and you can travel?" That's true but now we are at the point I've been trying to explain from the start: You will defend the outposts just as effectively as you would without spark teleportation at all, from Alpha2, with interzone teleport.

This is also why a lot of the examples shown in this thread fail. Few sentences of some situation you think shows your view from good light, while leaving way too many points unmentioned.

Sadly only few players here notice it.

615 (edited by Celebro 2013-08-23 16:29:28)

Re: Spark Teleports

DEV Zoom wrote:

So this is really about a scenario where a smaller force could ninja-take a SAP, because without sparks the major force would not be able to get there in time on foot? (Assuming they are not there in the first place.)


Ok thinking about this the easiest solution is to block instant teleporting to Beta OPs 1 hour before active SAP is due, and until SAP is finished or taken. That way large forces need to commit their time but no need to walk there.

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Re: Spark Teleports

Burial wrote:

No Celebro, what I'm trying to point out is that your whole argument is based on powerblock owning a lot/all the beta outposts while conveniently leaving out how much work it actually is to do it. You are trying to screw a lot of players over while not realising that even without sparks, defending SAPs execute in similar manner.

About your example:
This is, again, just part of the bigger picture. You are again, conveniently, leaving out a lot of facts. When you look today's SAP times, you see one of the biggest facts you closed your eye on. SAP times: 14:00, 13:53, 12:37, 12:08, 12:03, 11:49, 11:47, 11:47.. and it goes on. You see how many times are all together? And this happens 24/7! Now you mention that 100 man force is in one outpost, protects it and then suddely appears from another outpost. You again leave out big, well-know fact: You have only 10 sparks, combined with another fact that you would need way more sparks than just 10, not to mention delete your gamma sparks and actually train Spark Teleportation 10 on all of your 100 players. Now you might say "But you only need to have spark on 3 beta terminals and you can travel?" That's true but now we are to the point I've been trying to explain from the start: You will defend the outposts just as effectively as you would without spark teleportation at all, from Alpha2, with interzone teleport.

This is also why a lot of the examples shown in this thread fail. Few sentences of some situation you think shows your view from good light, while leaving way too many points unmentioned.

Sadly only few players here notice it.

You seem to leave out some facts too of how the Intrusion system works. Station owners don't need to defend all SAPs to keep the OP. Attackers need to take SAPs in succession to be successful. So large force dont even need to be at all SAPs to keep the outpost, if it was the old intrusion system it would be different scenario.

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617 (edited by Burial 2013-08-23 17:02:52)

Re: Spark Teleports

SAP takes only 1 attacker to do. Add solo attackers from a lot of smaller factions, and all SAPs will be quite easy to keep at the point where defender has to show up constantly, not to mention, defender has to be at the SAP for 50min minimum while for attacker it's only ~10min if not less.

Anyway, I hope my posts atleast convinced some of the players.. can't convince everyone.

618

Re: Spark Teleports

Just another few pages...

Re: Spark Teleports

Arga wrote:

Just another few pages...

Arga Help!! wink

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Re: Spark Teleports

@ Martha. M2S did own every outpost in game and CIR and co did too at one point.   Even with out sparking,  which fully proves celebros point.  Logistics for an operation required a 1 hr form up and a 1 hr logistic train.  Your a little too green to remember and you never played at CIR and Chaos peak.

@Zoom. It's about tactical decisions.  Sparking would be ok if there millions of players and hundred thousand islands.  And it took literally monthes of 8 hr days to scout every island.  But it's not its the ability to scout every island for inhabitants in 8 hrs in one day.

But if you think it's working as intended can we remove interference too?

621 (edited by Celebro 2013-08-23 16:55:56)

Re: Spark Teleports

Burial wrote:

SAP takes only 1 attacker to do. Add solo attackers from a lot of smaller factions, and all SAPs will be quite easy to keep at the point where defender has to show up constantly.

Anyway, I hope my posts atleast convinced some of the players.. can't convince everyone.

If  you add up solo attackers and thet make up more than the defenders, It means they won by numbers, and I bet they are allied = larger force.

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622 (edited by Burial 2013-08-23 16:57:09)

Re: Spark Teleports

This thread is my favorite!

Re: Spark Teleports

3 sparks out of 10 is all that's needed for Beta ownership currently zoom.  And why would you even USE a beta station when you can just simply be locked out.  It's not balanced for the world Zoom.

Re: Spark Teleports

Read Below.




Arga wrote:

@merkle, I see what you did there

@Cassius - Well, Population and the spark is allowing you to control the world. Which is where the real problem comes in. Any corp that has the greatest firepower (People and EP) will be the ones that control the world. That's what is broken.

Even if the tables turn, it won't even be 'fun' pvp to try and fight, because you'll always be faced with a huge number of opponents.

The M2S alliance was able to take over all the outposts because they had unlimited resources.

STC is holding all the outposts because you have unlimited mobility and the largest force.

The 'largest force' is only important because of the unlimited mobility. STC can apply everyone anywhere, that's what is broken.

I understand you don't want to give up your advantage. All 1000 of my posts aren't going to get STC to agree with me, contray to Merkle's post, I'm not done playing-dumb yet.

The only thing that really matters, is that the devs do see the problem, what they didn't see was a solution.

If they want to make it a 15 min PVP timer, that's fine by me. But it won't solve the problem, and time will prove that out.

I can't speak for Ville, but I would hazard that he doesn't care about holding a station, he just wants good PVP. Having 4 or 5 times your number defend every SAP on is not fun PVP, for either side.

Re: Spark Teleports

50% of OPs owned by STC+Nebs alone. Why do you need so many if they hold no incentive, only incentive you have is because of spark teleport then?

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