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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

Haha Siddy, you lost the argument and we both know it. Btw no m2s guy ever killed me - so what are your personal attacks about?

Siddy wrote:

How will you stop that? Have us fill a form A2:b7 before we activate module just to confirm we are not misusing it? Maybe some signature and stamp while we at it?

As long as we have just enought cap to disengage, your "pursuit" force will get slaughtered because your ewar pilots suck cocksicle.

Thats the point - the attacker will always have less cap left.

But what will you use to kill that attacker.
I remember someone just whined that only way to kill EWAR gang is to bring ewar gang of same numbers.

I don't see how that will change with this.

Lesser numbers you will fail.
Equal numbers, you have so far failed.
And with considerable blob, people have managed to kill us, so where is the problem?

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

Or do you wanna tell me that within the fight youd wait for your cap to recharge to full and do nothing?


You are seriously clueless about how the ewar gang works, i see.


Also, have you considered how badly this module will overpower the bots that use missiles and drainers?

All you will have after this is afterburning waspishes and tojars.

Again, you did not think your GRATE IDEA all the way trough...

78 Reply by Redline (edited by Redline 2011-01-29 22:09:26)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

You still have to proove that great Siddy can break maths and apply for genious. Otherwise you bark like a bitten dog.

You can easily restrict the module to LRs only and make the boost less effective on bots with a lesser base speed. Whats the deal? Have no brain?

Maybe if you stopped insulting you wouldnt look that stupid while still trying to deter from having lost an argument.

79 Reply by Redline (edited by Redline 2011-01-29 22:21:07)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Siddy wrote:
Redline wrote:

Haha Siddy, you lost the argument and we both know it. Btw no m2s guy ever killed me - so what are your personal attacks about?

Siddy wrote:

How will you stop that? Have us fill a form A2:b7 before we activate module just to confirm we are not misusing it? Maybe some signature and stamp while we at it?

As long as we have just enought cap to disengage, your "pursuit" force will get slaughtered because your ewar pilots suck cocksicle.

Thats the point - the attacker will always have less cap left.

But what will you use to kill that attacker.
I remember someone just whined that only way to kill EWAR gang is to bring ewar gang of same numbers.

I don't see how that will change with this.

Lesser numbers you will fail.
Equal numbers, you have so far failed.
And with considerable blob, people have managed to kill us, so where is the problem?

Scenarios:

1) you attack with boost, regain some energy while approaching and use your bit of energy to attack. --> The targets will have more energy at their disposal to strike back and will even have more left for a speed boost to follow you.

2) you attack without speed boost.

a) targets can withdraw with boost and you can keep distance but not approach them.
b) targets stay for a fight and both fire and ew away. now chances are equal.

Now in 2 of 3 scenarios EWs cannot dictate the fight as opposed to now where they can dictate any scenario. And even in that 3rd scenario they are dependent on the target willing to take a fight.

I call that a progress without taking away the dedicated role of EW.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

You still have to proove that great Siddy can break maths and apply for genious. Otherwise you bark like a bitten dog.

You can easily restrict the module to LRs only and make the boost less effective on bots with a lesser base speed. Whats the deal? Have no brain?

Maybe if you stopped insulting you wouldnt look that stupid while still trying to deter from having lost an argument.


Why not give LR's flat out speed increase? LR's are really sucky, and will suck even more if they need to sacrifice one more slot to mandatory equipment.

I mean, Pelistial race will make the fullest use of this module, no matter how you try to spin this.

So you need to re balance a whole race for this.

81 Reply by Siddy (edited by Siddy 2011-01-29 22:24:04)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

a) targets can withdraw with boost and you can keep distance but not approach them.


No you wont, we know how to use demobs.
And about your fighting skills...


Anyhow, post a concept of your "module"

Its weight, RP, TF and slot allocation.

Then its cap consumption, duration and speed boost.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

If someone wants to withdraw he could speed boost as soon as he sees you on radar long before demob range.

But yes, i'll post a module - you can try to exploit then. Thats a good idea, thanks!

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

I was thinking about an idea,

The game has an energy injector module, what if there was a new charge to be used in it for navigation,. like Nitrous Oxide charges for a speed boost.

still a demanding item to fit for a EW bot, and it pwns the cargo hold,..

/shrug

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

The game has an energy injector module, what if there was a new charge to be used in it for navigation,. like Nitrous Oxide charges for a speed boost.

that idea is old.
when we talked about it  with the GMs during beta, the mission reward ammo was born.
though i would have liked "buff"-injectior ammo.

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85 Reply by Scribbly (edited by Scribbly 2011-01-30 14:42:02)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Just an idea from a newbie, who dislikes the whole "EWAR or bust" approach to PVP at the moment.

Perhaps the solution would not so much be to nerf the hell out of the EWAR, because as some have already pointed out, speed defines the EWAR and nerfing that would just lead to a whole bunch of packaged bots collecting dust in a hangar somewhere.

I'm thinking that the recently implemented interference system should have a very heavy effect on EWARs specifically. So that it's mass zerging potential gets reduced, but it's overall abilities (scouting, smallscale PVP) remain powerful.

Just some brainstorming. I'm still fairly new to the game and am learning more every day, but as I stated above, I hate how PVP is pretty much defined by EWAR bots at the moment.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Cutting the speed gap from 37.5% to 20% will NOT render EWAR lights useless.
They will still be top dog in terms of speed and retain their role in tackling, harassment and roaming.
1kph speed advantage is already huge.  15-20kph is MORE than enough of a speed advantage.
If you need 30kph speed advantage to be effective, that is overreliance on bot overpoweredness, not reliance on skill and tactics.

Once again.  Nobody is asking for removal of the speed advantage of EWAR lights.
Merely adjustment so it no longer wrecks the balance of the 4 bot classes.
No complex new features are necessary to fix this, they will only hide and complexify the inherent problem of the speed gap.  Cut the Gordian knot.  Simply cut the speed gap so it is not so far out.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Yestuday, Enclave and co died to our hauling op that had ewar with it.

Nerf lithus please sad

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Container - a static change will result in a static result making EW still too fast or too slow. This will not work - it cannot work by definition.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

That is true, the EWAR can exist only in two 1/0 states.

Too fast

or

Too slow

for its intended role.

This is because the opinion on this is formed by two polarized groups. The one who rely on Ewar and the one who get in-the-butt by ewar.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Yep - and that's why my approach isnt static. Dunno if it will work - but you'll be able to brain test the new module Sid ;>

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Siddy wrote:

That is true, the EWAR can exist only in two 1/0 states.

Too fast

or

Too slow

for its intended role.

This is because the opinion on this is formed by two polarized groups. The one who rely on Ewar and the one who get in-the-butt by ewar.

Incorrect.  EWAR can exist in 3 states.

Overpowered:  Too fast so most roams are totally or majority EWAR most of the time.
Neither overpowered or underpowered:  Roams are mixture of different classes.
Underpowered:  Too slow so no one uses EWAR.

Totally nothing to do with opinions, just bot usage.
M2S seeing everything in politicized and personal terms as usual.
Nerf till more variety in bot usage is seen in roams.  Not the odd mechs being used.  But on a regular basis.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Thats right Container - but you wont reach:

Neither overpowered or underpowered:  Roams are mixture of different classes.

by changing its speed static.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

Thats right Container - but you wont reach:

Neither overpowered or underpowered:  Roams are mixture of different classes.

by changing its speed static.

There is completely no reason why static speed adjustments cannot reach this effect.
Just decrease EWAR light speed by 8%, increase regular light speed by 8%, increase assault speed by 5% and mech speed by 3%.

Current situation: EWAR light - ENORMOUS SPEED GAP - lights and assaults - ENORMOUS SPEED GAP - mechs and heavy mechs.
Result is anything but EWAR lights is a joke for roaming.
Mechs and Heavy mechs are not even anywhere remotely suitable for roaming.

Ideal situation: EWAR light - MODERATE SPEED GAP - lights and assaults - MODERATE SPEED GAP mechs and heavy mechs.
Result is EWAR lights are still king of speed, tackling and harassment, but speedfit regular light bots and assaults are now viable and seen more in gangs.
And the odd mech/heavy mech while still not adapted well for roaming is not quite as out of place.

We are talking about moderating the degree of speed gap and suddenly the reaction is so fearful that you cannot touch that beloved overpowered bot class at all even by the teensiest amount without totally bringing about the END OF THE WORLD.
Shows how incredibly overreliant on a single class of bots some have become.

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94 Reply by Siddy (edited by Siddy 2011-01-30 22:48:56)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

aww don't cry, you wiped our 8 man gang with your blob... after we omnomnomed 3 termis, 6 ewars and assault from you.

See, clearly not overpowered

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

i totally agree with container here.

except for the "speed gap" between mechs and assaults. if you fit mechs similar with open slots, you also get similar speed results.

but any argument is invalid against those "roaming groups" which aim for targets that are not prepared for pvp or dont want to.

btw
what is a roaming pvp group anyway? and what is the "objective" of that group?

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Annihilator wrote:

i totally agree with container here.

except for the "speed gap" between mechs and assaults. if you fit mechs similar with open slots, you also get similar speed results.

but any argument is invalid against those "roaming groups" which aim for targets that are not prepared for pvp or dont want to.

btw
what is a roaming pvp group anyway? and what is the "objective" of that group?

The objective is quite obvious. Bring down as many bots as possible before a) you run out of targets b) you get chased off the island c) you die

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

next patch will bring stealth - so the huge speed advantage wont be necessary from the "tackler" and "balancing approach" anymore.

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98 Reply by Container (edited by Container 2011-01-31 08:17:01)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

I am seriously concerned if new features are added before dealing with the speed gap.
Problem A exists, add feature B hoping somehow that unforeseen consequences C will balance A.  What actually will occur is Problem A interacts with feature B to create new problems D and E that you deal with by adding new features F, G, H creating problems I, J K, L etc.  And on and on and worse and worse balance problems get.

Avatar, you have a small window of opportunity to correct directly a major imbalance, a too-large speed gap, at the start of the game before it causes other imbalances from interaction with new features.
Fix it quick, fix it now directly before further problems spiral from it until balancing becomes too tangled between too many different factors to fix.  VERY possible.

This portrayal of M2S as the "EWAR light" corps and the other alliances as the "anti-EWAR light" alliance by Siddy is inaccurate and temporary.
It is so easy to train EWAR lights that ALL alliances are going to be "EWAR light" alliances.
Carbon copies of each other in using the overpowered class for roaming.
I do not think this is good for bot diversity.

EWAR lights are the end-game when it comes to roaming.
They SHOULD NOT be, because that makes the end game shallow and one-dimensional.
Bot diversity attracts and retains subscribers, Avatar.
More choices of bot and fits when it comes to roaming, not just one class above all and the rest merely a sideshow.

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99 Reply by Siddy (edited by Siddy 2011-01-31 09:55:43)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

We just had a fight with North Domhalarn.

We had equal in mechs, but we has more skilled ewar wing.

We killed them all.


The balance is there, you just have to pull your head out of your arse. I mean, rest of the norhoop can do that, why cant you, container?

100 Reply by Krupp (edited by Krupp 2011-01-31 11:55:56)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Light ewar need the extra base speed to compensate for the weight of ewar modules. If you would just give them a weight reducing bonus for ewar modules, the base speed can be reduced to prevent the excessive speed imbalance.

Example:
A t1 fitted intakt with 2 suppressors and nav 10 goes 88 kph.
If you give them a 66% weight reduction bonus on ewar mods, you can reduce the base speed to 66 kph and still make it go 88 kph fitted with ewar mods.