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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Voldemort wrote:
Siddy wrote:


Ewar is the cavalry of perpetuum, if you don't know how to use it or counter it, learn. Do not whine for the horses to be relapsed with donkeys... roll

You counter pure e-war squads by bringing bigger e-war squads. If you try anything else, the e-war squad will simply run away and you're not going to catch them.


And you think Chinese built a BIG *** WALL just for nothing?


Yes, it works as intended. Chinese didn't want to chase Mongolian EWAR squads so they terraformed. Go whine for terraforming instead...

As long X is 5%, 10% or 234134134% faster than Y,Z and all, it will be used for roaming.
And you will not catch it without using X yourself.

The proportion of X you use is solely dependent on your tactics, co ordination and stuff, so your personal anecdotes, you need "BIGGER BLOB OF EWAR", is ***.

The only thing you can achieve by reducing the speed of L-Ewar is to have more time to get away from the roaming gangs. You wont catch them with stuff that goes SLOWER... EVER ...

EVER
*Overflow error. - DEV Zoom

It is physical impossibility.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Annihilator wrote:

"we are better then you" on the forums.


We are better than you in game, too.

I don't see you roaming our islands.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

ITT:


Chinese whining that Mongolians raid they ***.

Asking horses to be relapsed with donkeys by gods.


Would it be so wonderful if everything in life was this simple?

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Everything could stay the way it is but be solved by making the speed an active but limited ability decreasing accumulator.

You would still have your role as it is now - but not have to use that advantage on purpose to either attack or flee - but not both at the same time.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

Everything could stay the way it is but be solved by making the speed an active but limited ability decreasing accumulator.

You would still have your role as it is now - but not have to use that advantage on purpose to either attack or flee - but not both at the same time.


This was considered in beta.

The reason it is not in, is because it will give the escaping player advantage.
The person who is using it to escape will use the module to 1:1 ratio with pursuer.

When both run out of accu, the advantage will be on the fleeing side, because pursuer will be unable to apply any effect on its target DUE TO PRETTY OBVIOS REASON...


Dear lords, people, do you use your heads or do you just pretend to?

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Thats not a problem Siddy. The problem isnt that you can flee - but attack and flee at the same time. You wouldnt be able to do that if adjusted to what i proposed earlier.

You couldnt switch to escaping after an attack and vice versa - becasue accu wouldnt allow it that fast.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Do you use you head sometimes other then hurting yourself by making ridicoulous offensive remarks only falling back on you a moment later?

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

Thats not a problem Siddy. The problem isnt that you can flee - but attack and flee at the same time. You wouldnt be able to do that if adjusted to what i proposed earlier.

You couldnt switch to escaping after an attack and vice versa - becasue accu wouldnt allow it that fast.

And if your target also chooses to flee?
I am going to bet that this module will be one of thous "EIN MÜST HABE" modules.

You are also forgetting the fact that the man power ratio of this activity is 1:5
Any, even remotely well tanked mech and above will not go down easily to robot that have 2 guns slots and no damage bonus.

Do you REALLY want balance a game around 1 vs 5 element? Seriously?

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

Do you use you head sometimes other then hurting yourself by making ridicoulous offensive remarks only falling back on you a moment later?

Get bent, and stop creating artificial problems, when there might be real ones.

60 Reply by Redline (edited by Redline 2011-01-29 19:27:36)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

The user can:

- flee as long as it didnt make on offensive attack.
- attack having to use the boost prior to the attack to re-gain accu for demob/sup/weap

can not:
-attack and flee
-while a persuer who didnt waste energy could persue

If it was a module - the speed boost would be affected by mass making it viable on small interceptors as it is intended - this way they'd have the most gain - whikle it still could be used by bigger bots with bigger accum.

If thats a problem, base the needed accum percentage wise to accum size - or restrict the module to light robots.

Its pretty easy to do actually.

Siddy, you logic simply is flawed. Its not an artificial problem but a real problem except for the ones using mostly these lame tactics which everybody can but doesnt want to accomodate to lame playstyles just to win.

So, counter that implementation - attack it, pls.

61 Reply by Siddy (edited by Siddy 2011-01-29 19:59:32)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

The user can:

- flee as long as it didnt make on offensive attack.
- attack having to use the boost prior to the attack to re-gain accu for demob/sup/weap

can not:
-attack and flee
-while a persuer who didnt waste energy could persue


According to this logic: as long as you don't get in your head to fight your attacker, you will escape because the both use accu at same rate.

If it was a module - the speed boost would be affected by mass making it viable on small interceptors as it is intended - this way they'd have the most gain - whikle it still could be used by bigger bots with bigger accum.

Ok, so you are admitting that different classes should have speed differences in here.
Why make this elaborate scheme that will change absolutely nothing?
Smaller bot will have speed advantage over larger counterparts, nothing will change here.

Only thing this will crate is situation where same class robots, while using this module, will not be able to fight because the 1:1 ratio of cap consumption. And all defender need to do is to avoid using accu for anything else but escaping...

If thats a problem, base the needed accum percentage wise to accum size - or restrict the module to light robots.

Its pretty easy to do actually.

See above, this will change nothing. Bigger bots will go slower than small ones, and the size related bots will end up in stalemate.


Siddy, you logic simply is flawed. Its not an artificial problem but a real problem except for the ones using mostly these lame tactics which everybody can but doesnt want to accomodate to lame playstyles just to win.

So, counter that implementation - attack it, pls.

So now you just say that the play style is lame? That is your personal opinion.
My opinion is that you *** play style is absolutely repulsive and beyond lame.

How about ECM whoring or 800m sniping? Maybe gate/station hugging and arke alt scouting?

How many pants-on-the-head anecdotes can you muster against any of these tactics?

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Siddy again - the problem isnt the speed difference in general - but that it allows the small ones to flee and atatck at the same time.

Reducing it to attack or flee - is enough. The versatility is the problem.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

anything that is faster will flee, what you are *** about is the speed they can flee with.

You did not even formulate your problem properly, and you expect me to take you seriously?

64 Reply by Redline (edited by Redline 2011-01-29 20:40:41)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Again, with those changes you wouldnt be able to flee immediately after attacking - and thats the change to the current system - and that is the problem - the constant switching of withdrawing and pushing foward. You still could scout and flee if you wish to though.

And no Siddy - smartasses not being able to comprehend properly arent my target group.

65 Reply by Siddy (edited by Siddy 2011-01-29 20:55:30)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

Again, with those changes you wouldnt be able to flee immediately after attacking - and thats the change to the current system - and that is the problem - the constant switching of withdrawing and pushing foward. You still could scout and flee if you wish to though.

And no Siddy - smartasses not being able to comprehend properly arent my target group.


Do you know how fast is the cap recharge of a intakt?

Unless you make a gun activation to glue my bot to the ground, i bet your arse that we can GTFO before your PLATED MECHS arrive...

You are speaking with voice of player who have not experienced PVP, at all.

66 Reply by Redline (edited by Redline 2011-01-29 21:09:05)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Hm - im not talking about plated mechs or whatever Siddy - just about facts.

And evebn if you cap recharge is fast: you'd empty it when pushing with the boost into the enemy, need time to recharge to use modules and need time again to use the boost.

You wont be faster then people having their whole accum at their disposal to follow you.

Doesnt matter how you put it - it would not benefit the ones pushing foward and backward all the time from skirmishes - but still allowing people to scout or withdraw without having engaged first. Only 1 bot class can do this atm.

And this is what this whole thread is about.

Btw thst aside, my Tyr has always had a speed of 70 and i didnt die to an m2s a single time - so - theres no need for personal insults.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Siddy wrote:

As long X is 5%, 10% or 234134134% faster than Y,Z and all, it will be used for roaming.
And you will not catch it without using X yourself.

The proportion of X you use is solely dependent on your tactics, co ordination and stuff, so your personal anecdotes, you need "BIGGER BLOB OF EWAR", is ***.

I'm not going to deal with the rest of your post, since it's mainly nonsensical (the Chinese Wall for example is a inappropriate analogy as it was built to counter a completely different issue than one group out-pacing another one, etc.).

What OP is asking for, is to make more bots that count as X, so that X (= group of fastest bots in game) are not only e-war but also light bots. This way there will be a greater variety of bots being used for roaming squads and with that more diversity in tactics and combat, also more people that can participate with bots that they are specialised in, etc.
If it's just 5% slower, it won't fall back fast, people can counter that by maximising skills and equipment and maybe by fitting 3 instead of 4 weapons / whatever.
If the diffrence is as big as described by OP, it slows down the squad too much, no matter what skills/modules are used, therefore it won't be deployed for roaming squads. That's a very simple reasoning, I don't understand which part of that you fail to grasp.

68 Reply by Redline (edited by Redline 2011-01-29 21:34:49)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Volde - Siddy is right opn that one:

1 static change to a static state will result in another static outcome making the change again always stronger or always weaker. Thats maths.

If other bots like LR could compete in the EWs objectives - there would be also no need for 1 or the 2.

The only way to change that is with a dynamic change like proposed above - making stronger or weaker dependend of the intended usage - but not making it possible to go for 2 directions at the same time.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

You wont be faster then people having their whole accum at their disposal to follow you.


You are ignoring the fact that if "our" group has 10 EWAR, and "you" will follow us with less than 10 EWAR. All that we need to do is brake off some ~500 meters and kill you from where your support cant touch us.

Its something we have been doing all the time. So tell me what will change?

I mean, hypothetical situation: My brave 10 bot EWAR squad is gakking 2 mechs.
Suddenly, we see 6 EWAR's (nothing else can catch us) on scaner, trying to rescue the mechs.

What do?

We have ~1 km head start. We brake off from mechs, kill anyone who catches up with us, then come back and finish the mechs.


Stop being ***, most of the times you lose battles because you ignore the importance of skilled fast support. Your fast support die, and all your fleet segments that rely on that support become next thing to useless.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

but not making it possible to go for 2 directions at the same time.


How will you stop that? Have us fill a form A2:b7 before we activate module just to confirm we are not misusing it? Maybe some signature and stamp while we at it?

As long as we have just enought cap to disengage, your "pursuit" force will get slaughtered because your ewar pilots suck cocksicle.

71 Reply by Redline (edited by Redline 2011-01-29 21:42:54)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Now you come with differing numbers in setups to make everything uncalculable for a balancing basis?

Again, im not talking about any specific setups - but simply making EWs pick a choice - to attack or withdraw. This is independent of numbers or other mechs involved and atm EWs can do both at any time. Thuis is what makes other LR worthless and is an unproportianal advantage of 1 class against many others.

This would simply change with the need to make a choice at a certain time. You can still do anything, but not attack and withdraw at will.

Whats so bad about that? EWs still have the role as fast scouts/roamers, ew support or tacklers. But youd have a weak spot that is not an inverse of speed, which would be even lesser armor.

72 Reply by Siddy (edited by Siddy 2011-01-29 21:43:37)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Voldemort wrote:

I'm not going to deal with the rest of your post, since it's mainly nonsensical (the Chinese Wall for example is a inappropriate analogy as it was built to counter a completely different issue than one group out-pacing another one, etc.).

Nomadic tribes were the main reason for that wall.

Nomads = horses, lots of them.

Horses = in and out before anything could react or pursuit.

So yeah, that wall was knee jerk reaction of colossal, visible from space, scale.
Little bit like what OP is asking here.

73 Reply by Redline (edited by Redline 2011-01-29 21:46:36)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Haha Siddy, you lost the argument and we both know it. Btw no m2s guy ever killed me - so what are your personal attacks about?

Siddy wrote:

How will you stop that? Have us fill a form A2:b7 before we activate module just to confirm we are not misusing it? Maybe some signature and stamp while we at it?

As long as we have just enought cap to disengage, your "pursuit" force will get slaughtered because your ewar pilots suck cocksicle.

Thats the point - the attacker will always have less cap left.

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

Now you come with differing numbers in setups to make everything uncalculable for a balancing basis?

Again, im not talking about any specific setups - but simply making EWs pick a choice - to attack or withdraw. This is independent of numbers or other mechs involved and atm EWs can do both at any time. Thuis is what makes other LR worthless and is an unproportianal advantage of 1 class against many others.

This would simply change with the need to make a choice at a certain time. You can still do anything, but not attack and withdraw at will.

Whats so bad about that? EWs still have the role as fast scouts/roamers, ew support or tacklers. But youd have a weak spot that is not an inverse of speed, which would be even lesser armor.

Your "feature" will not take that option away. All it will do is that we will have to keep our cap more closely monitored.

And give people "free out of gankfest" card. With that system, i can fit my intakt to be untouchable.  Because no one will have cap left after coming even close to me.

The "solution" you advocate is pant on the head ***.
Like i sed, we had this very same conversation in beta, and it got scrapped for exactly same reasons it wont be implicated now.

75 Reply by Redline (edited by Redline 2011-01-29 22:01:52)

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Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Siddy you cant trashtalk maths. If you attack and loose cap you will always have less cap then people only being there trying to prevent you from fleeing thus being always faster then you if you attempt to withdraw after an attack.

Or do you wanna tell me that within the fight youd wait for your cap to recharge to full and do nothing?

If you base effectiveness exponentionally on cap-reserves - 50% cap being used would only result in a 25% effective speed boost, 25% in 5% effectiveness as opposed to 100% at full cap.

There would be no way you'd escape. Maybe some - but not all depending on opposing numbers.

You would also have to enter combat without speed boost and thus approach the enemy much slower to have the above odds.

If youd enter combat with speed boost - your cap was empty totally, would need to recharge to even get of 1 shot or module - or then wait a long time passively to recharge fully.

The odds would clearly favor the victims being able to chase you, if your attack didnt work.