26 (edited by GLiMPSE 2011-01-28 19:42:40)

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Container wrote:

I gave the current balancing changes a chance to observe if EWAR lights are balanced better against other types of bots.  But no, the SPEED GAP is still far far too huge.

37.5% faster than next faster bot type is OK??
Speed of Intakt with Nav 10 demob t4 lwf and t4 light lasers = 110kph+
Speed of Castel with Nav 10 demob t4 lwf and t4 light missile launchers = 80kph

NOT 10% faster.  No problem with that.
Not 20% faster.  May be acceptable.
Not 30% faster.  30% is already ridiculously overpowered.
>37.5% faster.  Utterly overpowered.  This is 37.5% faster than the next fastest class and >100% faster than mechs and heavy mechs!
This is immense overpoweredness of a single  bot class instead of making more classes viable.
This is not a small imbalance, or a minor problem.  This is a huge imbalance totally distorting everything in PVP.

While in stEVE there are interceptors, assault frigates, heavy assault cruisers, cruisers all being used for roaming, in Perpetuum there is only one single class.  EWAR lights.
EWAR light online will not hold the interest of subscribers and draw people to the game.
How boring, one class of bots and nothing else.

The reason is so obvious. >37.5% faster.
With that ridiculous speed advantage why would anyone use anything else for roaming?
Roaming is >90% of PVP in Perpetuum so better make more than one class viable for that.
Reduce the speed gap to 20% faster and people may actually use other bots.

Why are you comparing an intakt to a castel?

You should look at the troiar to castel speed difference...

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

The whole point of the thread is that the OP wants to see more diversity in the fighting going on. The problem is not with the speed of the bots (although I would like to see Light Combat Bots get a speed boost), the problem is there is no reason either side feels the need to engage the enemy when there is not a clear advantage tactically. EWAR usage gives attackers the option to refuse battle at will and lower risk.

Right now the only PvP besides intrusions are high speed roaming raids; get in, get a kill, get out, unharmed. This can be done with EWARS. Bringing anything else gives the enemy the ability to actually catch you and force you to fight where losses might be taken. The willingness to take losses on a roaming raid where there is little or no physical reward is counter to human nature. Heavier armored bots with competent pilots and equal enough numbers force the EWAR gangs to withdraw for fear there will be heavy losses. Stalemate. No real PvP.

I would like to see there be a reason, multiple times DAILY, that corporations or alliances would be willing to risk bots and equipment for some sort of physical gain. Some reward worth trading equipment for. The heavier bots would have the advantage and be able to hold terrain giving them the reward all to themselves unless. . . . attacking forces brought more armor and firepower and had the will to risk equipment loss for some sort of substantial gain.

If the reward were something available ONLY during these "minor challenges", corps would risk bots, attackers would be forced to expect armored resistance and have to deal with it, or go without the reward. These challenge nodes would somehow require bots other than EWARS to be completed (at a minimum requiring assaults to complete).

If these "minor challenges" happened multiple times per day in dispersed locations away from outposts, no alliance could "call to arms" their whole available forces that many times per day to form blobs (as what happens now in intrusions). What you would most likely see is adhoc small gangs getting formed up at regular intervals with a minimum number of assaults included, throughout the day to take a shot at winning these rewards.

Consistent small gangs engaging checkpoints around the islands willing to take equipment losses in an attempt to gain a physical/substantial reward unavailable anywhere else in the game.

TL/DR: EWAR speed isnt the problem necessarily in the lack of diversity of combat bots on the battlefield. A shortage of content removes fighters' desire to control portions of territory where heavier/slower bots have an advantage and can only be beaten by heavier/slower bots. There is no material incentive to risk equipment. EWARS risk less in their ability to avoid danger. Why take a chance of being forced into a confrontation where you may take losses due to larger bots slowing the battlegroup. Multiple "minor challenge" nodes scattered across the Betas with substantial unique rewards, beatable only by assault class bots or better would foster regular small gang fighting with a more diverse bot composition.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

It is not a bot problem, it is a player intelligence problem.

Refer to E=Mk2 corp for advice on effective (and very deadly) usage of speedy(especially cheap & easily replaceable) light bots/ewar bots mixes. And good luck taking that down with just an ewar group. wink

With the upcoming changes, ewar-only roams will get more and more phased out. Also, the extensions are to be taken into account; a lot of players didn't get benefit of starting with 40k EP, so it'll be a while more possibly a month, before the playing field begins evening out.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

29 (edited by Container 2011-01-29 07:59:17)

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Avatar Creations, you only have 4 classes of bots in the game.
Therefore, you have to be careful to make at least 2-3 relevant to roaming or you end up with a boring roaming environment where there is only reason to use 1 class.
Good changes in the last patch but it was just not enough.
Roams are still mostly just EWAR lights.  No real change.
Get to the root of it.  Reduce the speed gap a little more.

Watch your own trailer again. http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Media:Videos
Did you advertise just swarms of EWAR spiders fighting?  No, because that is boring.
What you showed was a variety of bots of every kind, including the larger bots, fighting in free flowing PVP.
Instinctively you know that is what draws people.  The cool interplay between lights and heavies. 
Look at World of Tanks. Lights, mediums, heavies are all used and have a role in free flowing fights.
Instead of making the speed gaps so huge its uncrossable and you make heavies obsolete 99% of the time.
People expect you to balance the classes so all 4 are used in daily free flowing PVP.
We want that many unit type interaction, not this boring EWAR run and out.
Cut the speed gap to a smaller amount already.
We want to see more variety of bots in roaming PVP more often.
INCLUDING mechs and heavy mechs.

DON'T BALANCE CLASSES AROUND INTRUSIONS, BALANCE AROUND ROAMING.
For the simple reason that not many participate or care about intrusions and it only happens rarely compared to roaming anyway.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

I don't see the speed gap as a problem, rather then the missing special features of the other bot classes being able to be used as reliable as EWs speed.

The speed gap must be of this size for EW to be viable interceptors.

To balance the other way would and make them viable would be to reduce their speed generally to just have a ~10% speed advantage plus having a special module to boosts their speed temporarily, so that they can intercept or flee once in let's say within 5 minutes - but can't use it in that reliable way they do right now to enter/evade fights at will.

The major difference to EVE is that - besides similar class roles and interceptor speeds and possibilities to counter - EWs here still have the LoS advantage - they can hide a lot quicker in infights in comparison to slower other bot types + plus having the constant speed advantage.

Countering this playstyle at current state is more of a nice achievement rather then an excuse for the imbalances. Great if its possible, but thats not the way a designer would or should look at it.

The counter roles/class and playstyle wise should be as obvious in quality as the measure to counter - the EWs speed ability - and also be an active ability - like their speed!

An example would be, to make bots more vulnerable to dmg as their moving faster to reflect loosing control over their vehicle more easily being fired at at high speed. This would be an appropriate counter-ability of the same active and reliable quality the EWs have as speed ability.

Another, possibly more logical approach would be to increase the chance of being hit critically at high speeds drastically, since the EWs engines run on max and are hardly armored. Result would be the same.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Well, its very boring to have 4 classes of bots in the game and no point at all to undock 3 for roaming.  A 4 cylinder engine only using 1.  Wasted potential.

To think of Roaming -> EWAR light, Intrusion -> Mech/Heavy Mech is a limiting dynamic.
Intrusions are only participated in a tiny percentage of the time by a tiny percentage of the Perpetuum population so you are making some classes irrelevant most of the time.

Instead, think of Roaming -> EWAR light, light bot, assault, mech, EWAR mech, heavy mech all viable would be a MUCH better and more interesting game.
The game we see in the trailer with all sorts of mechs in open warfare.
Then you will have an immensely popular game.

What prevents the use of anything but EWAR?
The speed gap.  This one little factor skews everything to make one type of bot much much more important than just 1 out of 4.  And makes other classes obsolete.
They can catch anything and evade anything so there is never any point to bring anything out for roaming as they will just be caught by EWAR lights.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Yes but making them less overpowered in roaming by reducing the speed other then:

Redline wrote:

...reduce their speed generally to just have a ~10% speed advantage plus having a special module to boosts their speed temporarily, so that they can intercept or flee once in let's say within 5 minutes - but can't use it in that reliable way they do right now to enter/evade fights at will.


would also make them lose ther role generally. So - just make thier speed usage more specific:

-reduce general speed to a bonus of just around 10%

-speed boost for another 25% for the duration of current accum size / 10 in seconds, using up all energy on usage thus emptying the accum completely on usage, just making the duration dependent of the energy available.

-500 accum size would mean 50 seconds for the first speed buff resulting in an ampty accu, making the user unable to use rep/sup/demob/weap directly and by this forcing an attacking unit to use the boost before entering the fight to have regained enough accu to use a different module for the fight.

-the 2nd buff would again take a while depending on energy manamement and module
usage

-a fleeing unit using the boost would have to behave totally defensive to have a chance to regain enough accum to use the boost again in short time

Solved.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Its a general problem: open PvP games advertise - be fast and backstab your opponent.

my previous post is aiming at what the DEVs wanted to accomplish -> freedom in fitting, diversity in equip. Its ruined by must have equip like LWF and sensor amp.

and because all equipment-parts are affecting speed, which you need for hit-and-run its only natural to fit the tools have the least speed reduction... diversity bye bye.

you cant counter the speed advantage with armor in this game - because it needs more slots and way more expensive equipment to build up armor tank.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Container, if you had missiles + demob instead of drainers, on your gropho you would killed half of us that time roll

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Annihilator wrote:

Its a general problem: open PvP games advertise - be fast and backstab your opponent.

my previous post is aiming at what the DEVs wanted to accomplish -> freedom in fitting, diversity in equip. Its ruined by must have equip like LWF and sensor amp.

and because all equipment-parts are affecting speed, which you need for hit-and-run its only natural to fit the tools have the least speed reduction... diversity bye bye.

you cant counter the speed advantage with armor in this game - because it needs more slots and way more expensive equipment to build up armor tank.


That is not problem of diversity. That is problem of lack of situations where you need something but speed.

For a gang that fight outnumbered, speed is life.
Norhoop blob up and plate up because they lack of organization, intelligence and pvp skills.
If norhoop actualy had skilled EWAR squad backed up by fire support, they could take on any EWAR roams with equal numbers.

Instead they seems to be incurable ***...

36 (edited by Seridur 2011-01-29 12:38:26)

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Siddy wrote:

Container, if you had missiles + demob instead of drainers, on your gropho you would killed half of us that time roll

Are you implying that m2s are soo noob that they couldn't keep that Gropho sensor jammed and supressed with 10+ ewar? And even would go into demob range of a gropho and wait until locked??(*taking notes*)

37 (edited by Siddy 2011-01-29 12:56:45)

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

we had no damps or ECM big_smile

And we were, literally, hiding behind plants 50m from him, after we saw he was toothles, armed with neuts....

Container went down like sack of *** because he had shield fit with neutralizers. Now he is here to whine "this would not happen if you were slower, waaaaaah!".

Just to be clear, he and HUN tried to pincer our gang, instead we pincered HUN's, and after HUN's were dead, container and his buddy kain were _alone_.

Please go cry about your colossal fail to someone else and leave perfectly fine EWAR alone.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

which is a perfect proof for the issue - the heavy mech with Energy-warfare had no chance against the non-ewar fitted ewar bots?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Annihilator wrote:

which is a perfect proof for the issue - the heavy mech with Energy-warfare had no chance against the non-ewar fitted ewar bots?

1 H mech + 1 mech

vs

~15 ewar



We could have been in arke MK2's and they still would die to us.


Like i pointed out, we killed HUN EWAR support that did not get support from the main group, and the Gropho + kain that were there to pincer us, were left stranded.
If the gropho and kain were there 60 seconds sooner, the story may have been different.

Ewar is the cavalry of perpetuum, if you don't know how to use it or counter it, learn. Do not whine for the horses to be relapsed with donkeys... roll

40 (edited by Redline 2011-01-29 15:42:58)

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

You could as well just balance it to need to use the speed advantage on specific actions as opposed to have it always at your availability.

While the implication you make regarding the OP may have some points - it's also true that this type of bot is still ruling small numberes roams to bigger roams.

The constant speed not comes in handy to travel fast - its good to attack, flee drawback - or just circle and hide behind LoS breaking elements. No other bot can do that effectively. There needs to be means  to activly counter speed. Armor isnt an equal counter.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

There needs to be means  to activly counter speed. Armor isnt an equal counter.



De-mo-bi-li-ser

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

No thats not it from a design point of view - thats a patchwork solution. The counter should be a robot class ability.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Redline wrote:

No thats not it from a design point of view - thats a patchwork solution. The counter should be a robot class ability.


Its called, "missiles in your face" approach.

Works good.

As for catching them? Try ewar? lol

Because if you introduce mech class that can catch EWAR, that class itself becomes next problem roll

Now, please, try to think past your little "solutions"...

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

I didnt imply anywhere that they were able to catch them. I was just pointing out the requirements from a design point of view whereas your solutions are inverse related solutions. These solutions break up a system my definition on the long run.

The solution would be to a):

-reduce general speed to a bonus of just around 10%

-speed boost for another 25% for the duration of current accum size / 10 in seconds, using up all energy on usage thus emptying the accum completely on usage, just making the duration dependent of the energy available.

-500 accum size would mean 50 seconds for the first speed buff resulting in an ampty accu, making the user unable to use rep/sup/demob/weap directly and by this forcing an attacking unit to use the boost before entering the fight to have regained enough accu to use a different module for the fight.

-the 2nd buff would again take a while depending on energy manamement and module
usage

-a fleeing unit using the boost would have to behave totally defensive to have a chance to regain enough accum to use the boost again in short time


or b)

to make demobs medium modules (which doesnt make much since theyd loose their tackling role)

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

So.. M2S needs a 37.5% speed advantage to fight in PVP.
Seems you can't survive with just a 20% speed advantage.
Not confident in your abilities?  I thought you guys were saying you are good.

Size of speed gap is distorting the game.
Not asking to remove it, just to adjust it is all.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

I wouldnt say that - some m2s know what their doing - thats cool - but this issue still is a design flaw that needs to be solved appropriate rather then inverse.

47 (edited by Siddy 2011-01-29 16:59:36)

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Container wrote:

So.. M2S needs a 37.5% speed advantage to fight in PVP.
Seems you can't survive with just a 20% speed advantage.
Not confident in your abilities?  I thought you guys were saying you are good.

Size of speed gap is distorting the game.
Not asking to remove it, just to adjust it is all.

How about we introduce 60 second dock up procedure delay.
When you click "dock" you have to wait 60 seconds.

And that stacks with instability.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Sid - in german you now would have said something like: "Alter isch hab Bruder hinter jedem Baum!"

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

Siddy wrote:


Ewar is the cavalry of perpetuum, if you don't know how to use it or counter it, learn. Do not whine for the horses to be relapsed with donkeys... roll

You counter pure e-war squads by bringing bigger e-war squads. If you try anything else, the e-war squad will simply run away and you're not going to catch them. They can pick the fights, decide if they are going to fight or run, while anything else only has the option to fight or die, once engaged by e-wars somewhere not close to stations. That's why OP is right, the gap should be reduced, so that light combat bots become a valid option for roaming speed-squads.

Re: Speed Gap between EWAR lights and other light Bots >37.5%. Unbalanced

siddy, dont you see how broken your argumentation is?

everywhere i read "we need the speed, or we wont catch up the carebears before they dock and hide"

so after all its just for you to fight those, who don't want to fight with you. And if they do it, and lose, all they get is countless childish "we are better then you" on the forums.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear