26 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2015-07-08 08:49:29)

Re: Gamma turrets

Burial wrote:

Right now it's either:
1) resist boosted = outrange / ew down and try to break through reps.
2) sensor boosted = find a good position and melt it.


What's the point of sensor boosted turrets if people can still outrange them?

I have to agree with Burial here. Having Turret ranges greater than what players can currently manage isnt the end of the world. tho it does make life harder.

This will be true until some kind of Siege modules / bots are put into the game.

Personally I would love to see Artillery Turrets & Bots smile

aka. slow rate of fire, long range, high ark, with various types of AOE.


Edit: I still think turrets should require Ammo, that you can either manually place in the turret of hook a turret upto a ammo bunker.
Would make the Choice of what you do with your connections even more important.

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Re: Gamma turrets

This would be true if you had cover.  Like wall units to hide behind.  Or terraforming.

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Re: Gamma turrets

It's quite simple really. Turrets are there to shoot you. If they can't shoot you, if there is a surefire way to avoid them shooting you, then they lose their only role.

Re: Gamma turrets

Ville wrote:

Which reminds me:  Zoom how are players supposed to attack sensor boasted turrets?  Considering EM turrets are locking and shooting at 1000 M, and the base range optimal for the Longest bot in the game is 1050 w/ 120 falloff?

Not been playing on gamma since 2.0 but is it not possible to suppress turrets anymore?

Re: Gamma turrets

DEV Zoom wrote:

It's quite simple really. Turrets are there to shoot you. If they can't shoot you, if there is a surefire way to avoid them shooting you, then they lose their only role.

Their role in doing just that is justified, 100% agree!

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Gamma turrets

DEV Zoom wrote:

It's quite simple really. Turrets are there to shoot you. If they can't shoot you, if there is a surefire way to avoid them shooting you, then they lose their only role.

So you'd alienate 2/3rds of players from attacking gamma?  You've yet to answer this.  The only ones who can touch non boasted turrets is Seth MK2s and that's with a follow bot rsa.

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Re: Gamma turrets

Ville wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

It's quite simple really. Turrets are there to shoot you. If they can't shoot you, if there is a surefire way to avoid them shooting you, then they lose their only role.

So you'd alienate 2/3rds of players from attacking gamma?  You've yet to answer this.  The only ones who can touch non boasted turrets is Seth MK2s and that's with a follow bot rsa.

I can't answer a fallacy. "2/3rds of players" (out of what exactly?) attacking gamma will be alienated because they have to fight stationary turrets with dumb AI?

33 (edited by Burial 2015-07-08 16:40:49)

Re: Gamma turrets

Ludlow Bursar wrote:
Ville wrote:

Which reminds me:  Zoom how are players supposed to attack sensor boasted turrets?  Considering EM turrets are locking and shooting at 1000 M, and the base range optimal for the Longest bot in the game is 1050 w/ 120 falloff?

Not been playing on gamma since 2.0 but is it not possible to suppress turrets anymore?

Still possible and as far as I know their locking range is even shorter.. and there's less turrets than before.

Re: Gamma turrets

zoom, Ville is refferencing to his personal opinion that only yellow bots are valid at doing anthing ingame.

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35 (edited by Ville 2015-07-08 17:59:04)

Re: Gamma turrets

DEV Zoom wrote:
Ville wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

It's quite simple really. Turrets are there to shoot you. If they can't shoot you, if there is a surefire way to avoid them shooting you, then they lose their only role.

So you'd alienate 2/3rds of players from attacking gamma?  You've yet to answer this.  The only ones who can touch non boasted turrets is Seth MK2s and that's with a follow bot rsa.

I can't answer a fallacy. "2/3rds of players" (out of what exactly?) attacking gamma will be alienated because they have to fight stationary turrets with dumb AI?

I was wrong.  It's 2/4th of the player base.

Seth Mk2s are the only thing with reachable optimal ranges you can seek to achieve to shoot a "non-boasted turret"

There are 4 types of players -> Industrial(which I forgot my apologizes), Numiquol, Theolidical and Pellistal.

A Mesmer mk2 fitting for ALL range extenders and EM guns can not hit(even with faction ammo) a non boasted em turret that hits you at 1K M.

A Gropho mk2 fitting for ALL range extenders and Long range ammo(with faction ammo) can hit a non boasted turret but the ranges are identical.

A Seth MK2 can hit with ALL range extenders with regular ammo can hit a non boasted turret.

Industrial players an support with armor repairers and energy transfers.

The problem here Zoom, is if players fit for ALL range, they have no CPU/Reactor to fit even the most modest tank.  If a gropho gets shot by more than 1 turret it gets killed.  Mesmer mk2s can tank a few turrets but can never get in range to actually shoot a turret (especially if the turret is properly supported in an array).  1 EW turret and the Mesmer is gone.  And if I fit reactor sealings to counter it, I lose the only tank needed to be able to tank a small array (5 turrets).

I'm just confused Zoom you said:

DEV Zoom wrote:

Turrets were never meant to be a means for perfect base defense, you HAVE to be there to make sure you did everything you can to defend it.  here is no way to balance this if you want to defend your base purely using turrets. If we let you build enough of them to defend against 50 people, they will bring 100. Then we increase the limit and they bring 200 people. Soon the whole island is full with turrets and we're back to square one, and you still lose your base.

Because if your base can't be destroyed in any way, then the system is broken.

Furthermore, the new system rather helps smaller corporations compared to the old one. And this is exactly because of the limitations. Pumping more and more money into your network to build more buildings like in the old system will not work. The limit will be the same for big and small corps alike, so a successful construction will now much more depend on the way you put the pieces together, and less on the amount of NIC you throw at it.

Remedy's base was an excellent example on Krazlov of a fortress which could not be assaulted.  Had the turrets been set to the right relation we would still be trying to figure out how to attack it.

Which Leads me back to my original point. 

If turrets can out DPS and Out Range you with boasters on and there is nothing but unterraformable flat ground between you and the turrets.  How do you expect attackers to get close enough?

I can keep boasters offline until I need them to go online.  Then when the base comes out of reinforcement, boasters online.. GG.  Which points me back at: "Because if your base can't be destroyed in any way, then the system is broken."

Am I missing something? 

I experienced shooting a small base that was circled in turrets.  The not being able to see turrets thing got annoying fast because we couldn't figure out where the closest turrets were.  Gropho pilots took 2 hits to the face and were at 10% health.  Mesmers were useless because they didn't have range for ***.  So our Blue pilots got stuck in counter offensive accounts which was 2 hours of twiddling thumbs.  Admittedly I really miss trench warfare style gamma sieges were it took tactics and maneuverability and patience.  I'd just figure this long into Gamma we could have a balanced attacking|defending system.

*Edit* We immediately employed the services of a detector/target marker.

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36 (edited by Annihilator 2015-07-08 18:05:00)

Re: Gamma turrets

did you actually try to assault the remedy base?

*edit: ville, why do you have the same spelling error as "perpetuum" ?

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Re: Gamma turrets

When the fix is out it will be probably much easier, because you'll be able to see how many turrets are on you and react accordingly.

But this and your other recent posts seem to have one common theme, where your one man alt army can't take on gamma bases. And that's working as intended.

Re: Gamma turrets

DEV Zoom wrote:

When the fix is out it will be probably much easier, because you'll be able to see how many turrets are on you and react accordingly.

But this and your other recent posts seem to have one common theme, where your one man alt army can't take on gamma bases. And that's working as intended.

The common theme is Mesmer mk2 and Gropho mk2 pilots can't hit the turrets and dedicated pilots to their profession would like to participate in gamma warfare. 

I'm a base holder Zoom, I feel like its personally over powered.

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Re: Gamma turrets

Annihilator wrote:

did you actually try to assault the remedy base?

*edit: ville, why do you have the same spelling error as "perpetuum" ?

I'll cut you.  If I have something derogatory to say to someone I so do it on my main(s).

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Re: Gamma turrets

Ville wrote:

The common theme is Mesmer mk2 and Gropho mk2 pilots can't hit the turrets and dedicated pilots to their profession would like to participate in gamma warfare.

Why do all bots have to be the same? Do we really have to kill every specialization opportunity just so everyone can be happy and completely uniform?

Re: Gamma turrets

And to add to that, every robot can shoot turrets if they are willing to take some risks, because one turret can only shoot one player at a time. Your argument is that only a Seth Mk2 can shoot turrets without taking ANY risk (let's take enemy players out of the picture because that risk is equal for everyone), and sorry but that's actually not that good from a balance perspective. Furthermore it seems that your point is that any attacking force should be able to take down turrets without any losses, and that won't happen either.

Re: Gamma turrets

DEV Zoom wrote:

And to add to that, every robot can shoot turrets if they are willing to take some risks, because one turret can only shoot one player at a time. Your argument is that only a Seth Mk2 can shoot turrets without taking ANY risk (let's take enemy players out of the picture because that risk is equal for everyone), and sorry but that's actually not that good from a balance perspective. Furthermore it seems that your point is that any attacking force should be able to take down turrets without any losses, and that won't happen either.

Grophos and mesmers are essential in attacking gamma bases, unless your only tactic is to overcome everything with pure DPS. But noone accepts any losses against npcs, no matter if they are enemy faction, or static turrets.

with the gamma defense turrets its simple - you either overcome them, or you dont attack... there are no losses unless the base owner plays pranks with the attackers (i really would loved to hear CIR/PHM Ts when Villes bots got killed by a remedy turret, because he was hit by a target-painter)

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43 (edited by Burial 2015-07-08 18:57:04)

Re: Gamma turrets

Ville, suppress turrets down.. ? You can EW sensor boosted turrets just fine with tuners.

Re: Gamma turrets

DEV Zoom wrote:

And to add to that, every robot can shoot turrets if they are willing to take some risks, because one turret can only shoot one player at a time. Your argument is that only a Seth Mk2 can shoot turrets without taking ANY risk (let's take enemy players out of the picture because that risk is equal for everyone), and sorry but that's actually not that good from a balance perspective. Furthermore it seems that your point is that any attacking force should be able to take down turrets without any losses, and that won't happen either.


Zoom Players invest their EP into a single element into this game and you wish to deny them the ability to participate? 

There's no risk with a Seth Mk2?

You can't get close enough to a grouping of turrets without getting vaporized.  You might can tank 1 turret.  But the Logical aspect of that is as you get closer to turret you get into range of other turrets behind it.  You can't tank it.  You have a choice.  Tank up and not be able to shoot turrets Or shoot turrets at extreme range with no tank what so ever.

Your comment would make sense if their was sacrificial bot able to explode and cause enough damage to mean something.   A termis fully plated to the core does 2.5% damage to a turret of it's maximum health.  The loses you would incur during a gamma siege serve no greater overall good to the assaulting team, it just adds to a slowing snow balling effect.  Which means some explodes in the middle of the group -> causes damage to everyone else and the turrets keep cycling through potential people who may or may not be Hp Stable and cause more explosions.

It just hit me, You don't understand the snow balling effect in your own game.  Man.. it's so clear now!  You just think people die respawn and get right back into the action!  With no logistics no travel nothing!  Holy smokes Zoom do you understand what happens when stationary items like 5 turrets encountering 10 players.  Kills 1 player which means 5 turrets cycle through 9 players faster now?  Then that added effect applys more dps to the remaining people?  It's the same way in PVP, a 5 v 5 is fine, but 95% of the time once 1 person is killed the other 5 can easily over taken the other 4.  Wow, it makes sense now.

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Re: Gamma turrets

Burial wrote:

Ville, suppress turrets down.. ? You can EW sensor boosted turrets just fine with tuners.

Optimal range of Suppressors [post balancing patch smile ] vs. Let's say non boosted turrets
Optimal range of Suppressors [post balancing patch smile ] vs. Let's say 1(sensor boost) boasted turrets
Optimal range of Suppressors [post balancing patch smile ] vs. Let's say 2 boosted turrets
Optimal range of Suppressors [post balancing patch smile ] vs. Let's say 3 boosted turrets
Optimal range of Suppressors [post balancing patch smile ] vs. Let's say 4 boosted turrets

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Re: Gamma turrets

Ville: sorry but I still don't get what you want. As far as I can see the only suggestion you had so far is that you wish to use other bots or weapons too to shoot turrets without them being able to return fire.

Re: Gamma turrets

If you can't fit your bots up according to the situation then the problem is at your end.

Re: Gamma turrets

Ville has a point though, if it's true that turrets behave like ' the old terraformed walls' (as zoome says turrets role is to hit other players) then why remove them in the first place.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Gamma turrets

Celebro wrote:

Ville has a point though, if it's true that turrets behave like ' the old terraformed walls' (as zoome says turrets role is to hit other players) then why remove them in the first place.

I don't know where that comparison comes from, but there is big difference between impenetrable walls that you can't do anything against, and turrets that, while they hit hard, you can take down with enough firepower.

Re: Gamma turrets

Turrets don't focus fire and so their DPS is easily countered. It's possible to make assaulting hard but it's never impossible to do.

77s base on kris for instance can be walked directly in to with shield tanked tyranos. All you need to do is avoid or distract the ew turrets.

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