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Perpetuum Forums → Feature discussion and requests → Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API
There is noting broke and the killboard is working as intended. Leave it alone and move along.
There is noting broke and the killboard is working as intended. Leave it alone and move along.
This applies even moreso if you go back in time to the day before they added exact locations.
Merkle wrote:Stranger Danger I would agree with you if the player base was a bunch of absolute *** that have no idea where anyone plants noragis, or mines epi, or where other players live, or what routes they run, or what bots they drive, or what player is in what corp, or or or...
If I see a termis die on beta, I can guess what he is doing, if I see a Symb Die on better, I can guess what he is doing.
Look at the corp tag of who died, find there active OP, nora spotted and dead. Wonder where your scarabs are? Look at beta they are located on, find there alpha in point. Scarabs found.
Common guys this isn't rocket science, even PHM has figured it out. ( I kid I Kid.)
You of all people know the Ramifications of this. It's just ONE more tool to separate the Vets from the new players.
Non sense, new players can also use this data to their advantage and avoid hotspots.
Because all new players know exactly where to go to see it.
Ville wrote:Merkle wrote:Stranger Danger I would agree with you if the player base was a bunch of absolute *** that have no idea where anyone plants noragis, or mines epi, or where other players live, or what routes they run, or what bots they drive, or what player is in what corp, or or or...
If I see a termis die on beta, I can guess what he is doing, if I see a Symb Die on better, I can guess what he is doing.
Look at the corp tag of who died, find there active OP, nora spotted and dead. Wonder where your scarabs are? Look at beta they are located on, find there alpha in point. Scarabs found.
Common guys this isn't rocket science, even PHM has figured it out. ( I kid I Kid.)
You of all people know the Ramifications of this. It's just ONE more tool to separate the Vets from the new players.
Non sense, new players can also use this data to their advantage and avoid hotspots.
This is exactly the problem. Players should not get that level of detailed information from a game output that doesnt even require logging in. Leave that content to teamspeaks, intel channels, jabbers etc.
So what is the real issue?
Is it Doeks' site?
Zoom has made it clear to Syndic, or anyone, that they can have the same access. And Doek does not moderate politically on his website
Is it the delay?
All sides have acknowledged the 15 minute delay negates an instant response. But if the argument is the data can be analyzed for trends then who cares if its delayed 24 hours, it can still be analyzed and actions can be prepared.
I like Ville's point about harvester dies "grow op here!" sign goes up, but c'mon, who continues to harvest Norg in the same location they have died? Once it's found, it's found, find a new spot.
If the argument is 3rd party not logged in is wrong, does this mean if the Devs had an ingame KB with the same info and 15 minute delay thats all cool?
And if 3rd party aids aren't fair, and you need to log in, does that make the fitting tools, the guides, the scan app (which I have never used) unfair? Every game with fans develop their own fan sites and aids.
I think the data is intel, but not game changing intel, and well worth the cool stats and maps that are sure to be produced when a yearly or monthly action report is created.
One other thing, comparing this to EvE doesn't work. EvE has many in game filters that tell you within the last 1/2 hour pod kills, ships killed, etc. Most gameplay in EvE involves entering system, warp to next gate enroute, leave system. Just by knowing system name in EvE is far more the advantage than just knowing island name in Perp. One player in EvE can scan every warp able location in a system within 5 minutes. You would need 4 detectors and 20 minutes to MAYBE clear one island.
Does this contribute?
I dont feel very strongly about it but i do think that this kind of data should be available on a monthly aggregate level only.
This level of individual kill data is bot needed, serves no purpose and is potentially damaging.
I think killboards in general are something that makes people risk averse - this will only make that worse.
Wow really because a major faction member has access to all the information and can do what he wishes with it.
broke
Rage Blackout wrote:I am thinking back to years:
"I have a feeling you are overestimating how much terraforming people will do"
What I meant is that people seem to think that this "API thing" is some secret intel channel that you can simply tap from your browser or something and get instant access to every kill data. Way to overthink again.
Stranger Danger wrote:DEV Zoom wrote:Rage, you can bash me all you want, but:
1. I did not put this into the API (I'm still a graphics artist, not a coder, hence my previous post...), and I didn't even know that we had this in it before yesterday.
2. As I said this is up to the community to decide, since as you pointed out, I don't know the ramifications of this.Syndic: we give access to the API to anyone who wants to use it and tells us what website or program he wants to use it for.
Question is, do you want intel to be acquired in game though playing? Or do you want intel to be made available on a website?
I want this question answered.
^
See above
Doeks site is great.
The real issue is using out of game tools to get in game data that should only be able to be obtained by playing, not clicking F5 on a website.
It is metagaming and doesnt belong here.
Work in game to obtain intel.
That is the basis of the problem. The average player of games doesnt think in such detail about things. That doenst mean its ok.
I could concede to a greater delay for specific coordintates, but 15 minutes, no way. Island name fine, coords no.
"I think the data is intel, but not game changing intel, and well worth the cool stats and maps that are sure to be produced when a yearly or monthly action report is created."
^^ PvP intel of any type is game changing because of the very nature of PvP and tactics and planning. You know those things that I had to type a million words essay about related to Sparks, but none of you really understood.
Anonymous monthly stuff would be cool and could be somewhat acceptable. Almost real time specific stuff, no.
EVE does compare because there are 1000's of "islands" and here only a few, so the more free intel you get here the better for people who want to blow things up like me. I am going to use this data to every advantage. I dont like it though. It doesnt belong here and makes Internet kittens cry.
So what is the real issue?
Is it Doeks' site?
Zoom has made it clear to Syndic, or anyone, that they can have the same access. And Doek does not moderate politically on his websiteIs it the delay?
All sides have acknowledged the 15 minute delay negates an instant response. But if the argument is the data can be analyzed for trends then who cares if its delayed 24 hours, it can still be analyzed and actions can be prepared.
I like Ville's point about harvester dies "grow op here!" sign goes up, but c'mon, who continues to harvest Norg in the same location they have died? Once it's found, it's found, find a new spot.If the argument is 3rd party not logged in is wrong, does this mean if the Devs had an ingame KB with the same info and 15 minute delay thats all cool?
And if 3rd party aids aren't fair, and you need to log in, does that make the fitting tools, the guides, the scan app (which I have never used) unfair? Every game with fans develop their own fan sites and aids.
I think the data is intel, but not game changing intel, and well worth the cool stats and maps that are sure to be produced when a yearly or monthly action report is created.
One other thing, comparing this to EvE doesn't work. EvE has many in game filters that tell you within the last 1/2 hour pod kills, ships killed, etc. Most gameplay in EvE involves entering system, warp to next gate enroute, leave system. Just by knowing system name in EvE is far more the advantage than just knowing island name in Perp. One player in EvE can scan every warp able location in a system within 5 minutes. You would need 4 detectors and 20 minutes to MAYBE clear one island.
Does this contribute?
This is a fun thread.
Hey Mitix can you unban me from perp-kill?
save us Mitix
This is a fun thread.
Perfect simple example.
Celebro wrote:Ville wrote:You of all people know the Ramifications of this. It's just ONE more tool to separate the Vets from the new players.
Non sense, new players can also use this data to their advantage and avoid hotspots.
This is exactly the problem. Players should not get that level of detailed information from a game output that doesnt even require logging in. Leave that content to teamspeaks, intel channels, jabbers etc.
Hell if we are going all or nothing, let's have PVE/PVP deaths on the killboards with Coordinates in real time. I mean it's lets go all in.
This data is really interesting and benefits any new players reading this or joining an experienced corp, (which are the only ones on pvp islands)will tell new players to use these out of game tools that we have always used anyways, to get an edge on the enemy, either to avoid pvp or to use it as a tactical tool for kills. Either way those who use their brains will gain an advantage. I find this good for the game as a whole.
I really like the feature. But I have been thinking more about this thread. I have to agree with the OP that this is TMI for KB API.
I think Jita is correct when saying this type information would best be available on a monthly basis for kill api data.
http://www.perpetuum-online.com/~gargaj … nt=density
if i remember correctly, this "feature" was killed right away after shown in public, "because giving to much intel"
but its on an official perp related page - where i don't mind it.
thats the only thing i don't like about that info beeing in the API -
beside that... its nice to finally see WHERE the action is.
Wow really because a major faction member has access to all the information and can do what he wishes with it.
broke
Everyone has equal access to the raw API data. Doek allows anyone to see the data on his website. If you are so concerned about advantage, do your own work and compile the data yourself, nothing is stopping you.
Since you are missing the point:
EVERYONE HAS EQUAL ACCESS TO THE API INFORMATION
otherwise known as not broke.
Hell if we are going all or nothing, let's have PVE/PVP deaths on the killboards with Coordinates in real time. I mean it's lets go all in.
Everyone has pointed out the problem with this. Why even suggest it?
I really don't even care if its delayed by 15 minutes or an hour.
Honestly, even seeing it once a month would be cool.
Even a newspaper is intel. But CNN, apart from the bias, provides better, up to date intel on the same activity. This is why with a delay I don't think its game breaking. Martha said this already, if you think its game breaking by all means fill your boots and prove yourself right. Other than this whole needless drama injected thread, I don't expect to see a significant difference either way from either side.
Before I get on this train, I'm speaking as a SQL/API guy and I don't care how its done as long as its equal.
EVERYONE HAS EQUAL ACCESS TO THE API INFORMATION
otherwise known as not broke.
False:
Zoom explicitly stated above that any use of the API outside of what they 'deem' acceptable use is not permitted. Zoom stated they do not intend for users to privately consume and use the API internally. Doek's site and perp-kill have been given that 'ok'
They have no understanding of how that gathered data is being used behind the scenes and I never expect them to. The question is to either allow equal access or not and if not then how much information is given?
its pretty bad how out of hand these conversations get now a days, this should be pretty cut and dry.
I like the feature in its coolness and if I didnt play this game, it would be interesting to see all the information and stuff.
but we have to do the right thing
what would jesus do?
Ok lets not mince words here, do I understand this correctly that what you're saying is I need to make a shell killboard that shows basic information like perp-kill to noobs, and then piggyback the information I want shown into a separate thing thats available only to trusted key players/FCs?
Alternatively just have a little thingy-thingy scrub data from sequer.nl and repost it where it needs to go?
To clarify, I'm not being an *** here I'm just clearing all the unknowns with you before I use this public information to my benefit. Is this legit/legal or will it result in another 30-day-6-times-a-day salute? 
Ok lets not mince words here, do I understand this correctly that what you're saying is I need to make a shell killboard that shows basic information like perp-kill to noobs, and then piggyback the information I want shown into a separate thing thats available only to trusted key players/FCs?
Alternatively just have a little thingy-thingy scrub data from sequer.nl and repost it where it needs to go?
To clarify, I'm not being an *** here I'm just clearing all the unknowns with you before I use this public information to my benefit. Is this legit/legal or will it result in another 30-day-6-times-a-day salute?
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. The API doesn't include anything (to my knowledge) that sequer.nl doesn't show already to the public.
API access is given to those who actively want to use it "for the greater good" of the community, and provide a public service, not for some shady selfish business.
- typical response from the API: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/752 … 981442.txt
- entire killboard database: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/752 … kb.sql.zip
No need to scrub btw, I've had this for the last 2 years or so: http://sequer.nl/killboard/?a=api-documentation (although haven't updated it in a while, so no ewar or positions - but no one is using it, so).
But keep this up guys. No nice things can be had, apparently.
Syndic wrote:Ok lets not mince words here, do I understand this correctly that what you're saying is I need to make a shell killboard that shows basic information like perp-kill to noobs, and then piggyback the information I want shown into a separate thing thats available only to trusted key players/FCs?
Alternatively just have a little thingy-thingy scrub data from sequer.nl and repost it where it needs to go?
To clarify, I'm not being an *** here I'm just clearing all the unknowns with you before I use this public information to my benefit. Is this legit/legal or will it result in another 30-day-6-times-a-day salute?
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. The API doesn't include anything (to my knowledge) that sequer.nl doesn't show already to the public.
API access is given to those who actively want to use it "for the greater good" of the community, and provide a public service, not for some shady selfish business.
My point is that I(or anyone else for that matter) can make a public service, then piggyback the shady selfish business on the side without you knowing about it.
And if I (or anyone else for that matter) can do it, who's to say someone else isn't doing it already? Would you even know or notice?
It's already possible to scrub data from sequer.nl, exploit Doek's code and integrate it into something like jabber for kill-pings.
Which brings us back to what people were originally saying and I agreed with;
Sorry Zoom, too much information. 
To summarize;
- island + 30 mins later is gg for catering to the epeen warriors who count scarabs.
- coordinates not so much.
why;
- noobs won't know how to use this to their advantage, we do.
- THINK OF THE STEAMLINGS 
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