26 (edited by Rage Blackout 2014-04-08 00:06:39)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Dear Dev Zoom,


It would acceptable if coords delay was 24 hours. maybe as a compromise  .. but still bad

I knew you wouldnt understand.

lol

ridiculous


Reading your comments again even more disgusts me as you just dont seem to care about the in game real ramifications of intel like this.

You see it *** a bell and a whistle that you thought was cool for API.

It is not.

Use the force, Zoom.








DEV Zoom wrote:

TBH I have two things to say about this:

1. "This is why we can't have nice things."
and
2. Every time you put my name into a forum topic, I die a little inside.

The community shall decide.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

That is actually even worse, Doek can still have the data and keep it within the STC community.


Annihilator wrote:

the only real issue i see with this, is that the data is sent to a single person on his website,
a person who is an actual player, part of an active pvp corp.

when i remember all the *** against the GMs during beta times, that actually had not even the power to do anything but giving free teleports and changing terminal channel messages...
This API policy is a kind of riddle to me...

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Oh and the bias is really obvious considering the person that starts abusing this is in a major faction.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

29 (edited by Rage Blackout 2014-04-07 23:31:15)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

I'll be as concise as possible:


API metadata with exact coord locations of combat deaths provides intel to people using out-of-game tools that they wouldnt have otherwise...

unless..

they were using in game proper tools like actually be in robots and scouting or using intel from other people in bots who were there or are there..


This simple data can be used to establish patterns of activity that people would not know otherwise, unless they gathered the intel in game.

A post greenlight world has fights all over the island.



You programmers are all alike, very smart but not street smart.

*edit: Yeah, don't write things that you don't want reactions for and then report them for being offtopic. - DEV Zoom







kinda reminds me of the 10 spark locations mentality, lazy people who lack vision of a real game love it.



Doek wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

the only real issue i see with this, is that the data is sent to a single person on his website,
a person who is an actual player, part of an active pvp corp.

when i remember all the *** against the GMs during beta times, that actually had not even the power to do anything but giving free teleports and changing terminal channel messages...
This API policy is a kind of riddle to me...

The policy is to don't *** abuse it or they'll stop spending time on it and/or just shut the whole thing down. I could have my corpmates come here and explain how disappointed they still are with me for not making a mass mailer back when the API was real-time (and it had been for like 3 years), but I think you get the point. (I never got that question anyway, most discussions concern the fitting tool and allowing comments on the killboard).

On this thread: it wouldn't hurt to be a bit more specific if you want to point out this outweighs the benefits in some way (because this is a pretty damn cool feature and a big plus over eve killboards). 'Generally' and 'just too much' seem pretty weak.

Let me just counter by stating that this is basically useless meta after the fact, most kills occur around terminals, teleports and SAPs anyway. Further increase the delay if you're in any way uncomfortable (that's my impression of this thread anyway), but it's old data and that doesn't qualify it as intel as far as I'm concerned (scouts reporting what they saw 15 minutes ago is laughable at best).

And then it also provides the killmail with a far richer picture of the battle, adding more to the speculation of why and how (blobbing, victims trying to get away, a full on engagement, etc), and it allows to make out who exploded on who.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Yeah... so, 4 posts down it's just another CD thread with plain insults to boot.

31 (edited by Rage Blackout 2014-04-07 23:32:45)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

That was quite a contribution to the subject.

All of my points are valid.



Your point is:

hey its pretty cool, so lets do it

remember what I said about street smarts




Doek wrote:

Yeah... so, 4 posts down it's just another CD thread with plain insults to boot.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

32 (edited by Celebro 2014-04-07 23:38:22)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

I'm starting to feel this is all politically motivated attempt using harmless API data . Rage, I think you need to be more specific what the issue is before the Devs throw in the towel and give up on the API or not update it any further.

Furthermore there has been for years API data from EVE websites like dotlan, covering from NPCs killed to number of jumps/24hrs that's more useful data than some delayed coordinates on a map.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Rage Blackout wrote:

Your point is:

hey its pretty cool, so lets do it

And your point is that the website now does the job of drunk and lazy in-game scouts. Oh, and hey, let's paraphrase Oppenheimer while we're at it!

34 (edited by Shadowmine 2014-04-07 23:51:04)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

I love the new addition to the killboards personally. Its cool to see where these fights happen and give some context to the battle. Had this been in use back when there were static ore spawns I could maybe see more of an argument.

But if the whole premis of your "Rage" is that it is too much free intel. How is it any different than listing the island they were killed on? You still don't have to get in a bot and go scouting, you can tell what islands are active and which are not already.

The only real argument I see is that you can spoil someones long term logoff/gate camps if you see the same guy killing multiple people at a teleport many times over. But I'm not totally sure I am against that. Adds another sense of danger to the serial logoffski guy.

@Rage Blackout: I know your response to my post is that I know nothing. And that I should stop posting unless I am actually in agreement with you, I mean,contributing to the topic. But I'm bored and just want to be part of the group....

Lets see how this plays out...

I don't see how knowing whether it happened on the north teleport or at an outpost really makes much of a difference after 15 minutes.

Edit: And now we know that its not coincidence his name is Rage Blackout....

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

There is a limit to how much info regarding in-game fleet movements/tactics that you should be able to get without logging in. Fleet comp, module useage, damage done, island are all on one side. The exact location of all your bots, where you camp, where you farm, where you harvest etc. falls on the other side. Its just too much info for zero work.

I agree this is a really cool feature, and I'm sure we can come up with a awesome way of using it that doesn't make a lot of in game content obsolete.

36 (edited by Martha Stuart 2014-04-07 23:55:23)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Rage Blackout wrote:

You programmers are all alike, very smart but not street smart.

When they invented the atomic bomb, the scientists thought they were smart too.  (know what I mean)

I love how you so casually declare that some of the smartest minds mankind has ever produced "Thought they were smart".  LOL, god I love these forums.

@Doek, apparently you are some how building one of the most destructive weapons man kind has every known....with a website.....

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Tund Bungler wrote:

There is a limit to how much info regarding in-game fleet movements/tactics that you should be able to get without logging in. Fleet comp, module useage, damage done, island are all on one side. The exact location of all your bots, where you camp, where you farm, where you harvest etc. falls on the other side. Its just too much info for zero work.

I agree this is a really cool feature, and I'm sure we can come up with a awesome way of using it that doesn't make a lot of in game content obsolete.



^^^

yeah this

thanks

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

38 (edited by Rage Blackout 2014-04-07 23:58:14)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Yes there is a difference.

Island name is general and exact coordinates is specific.

I know you dont understand.  I expected you not to.


With 6 betas, island name is nearly crossing the line.



Shadowmine wrote:

I don't see how knowing whether it happened on the north teleport or at an outpost really makes much of a difference after 15 minutes.

Edit: And now we know that its not coincidence his name is Rage Blackout....

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Ladys and Gentlemen:

The reason why this is a terrible idea is simple.  If every time a miner or a harvestor dies, it gives away his location to the rest of the ENTIRE server were their potentially hidden Noralgis field/(off the beaten path)Epi spot will be.  On gamma this will announce where bases are, eliminating the guess work out of scouting.  And If I know a group of individuals is ALWAYS camping a certain area, I know to change my routing.  And don't tell me players won't use this as intelligence gathering, If I know someone dies repeatedly near a mission spawn on an island I can conclude they are missioning/ratting.  This is a TERRIBLE idea when it comes to the side of being anonymous.  I for one am totally against giving more intel about deaths then needs to be.

Seriously, this is a terrible idea and I pray to God/Allah whoever, this is changed.  I hate the killboards enough now, its like a giant Epeen paradise.  No one wants to commit to fight because everyone is worried about the K/D ratio and being trolled about it, well except BeastMode. 

People literally spend a lot of time scouting/planning/ and preparing for work on pvp islands.  If something logistically happens all their time is just pissed out the window.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Well I think the overall issue some are having (political reasons aside) is that it waters down possible strategies.

Basically it will eventually nullify creative tactics that work.  Why?  Well lets say for instance there is a highway one of merkels alts continually gets kills at a certain time of day...at an exact location.  Well we can now log off some characters there, and ruin the login trap...and I didn't even have to participate in playing the political or intel aspect of the game to know there.  Before perhaps if I was the victim enough I would realize and do something about it...but that involved me playing...this doesn't.

I don't think this is a massive deal, because there is an easy fix for it.

But basically this waters down the value of good intel, which imo, is a foundation content in a game like this.  It will ruin somewhat stealth operations...and as was mentioned, its just too much info available outside the game by anyone.

This isn't a "well STC is doing this so lets disagree" or "well cir is against it so lets be for it" which some seem unable to get past...its about taking what use to be vital intel obtained in game, being smart about where people were getting killed...and packing that all into a quick map and kill board...and removing the need to do it in game.

hell if you want to make it easier to locate pvp hot zones, break it down by island sector (moyar vs koykili vs hedydelhorn)  but pointing out exact locations ruins a lot of creative gameplay...and devalues good intel.

Stranger Danger / Capital Punishment / Cyberdown
Pillar of the Community
Ruler of Recruit Chat
CIR Ministry of Truth

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Martha Stuart wrote:

@Doek, apparently you are some how building one of the most destructive weapons man kind has every known....with a website.....

Haha, that was my takeaway too. All in all a good few days spend on isometric projection math. I didn't learn that in school though, that makes me street smart right?

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Rage Blackout wrote:

You are upset because it is fun for you to do cool things with the website.

I feel bad because it is cool, but I know its wrong and must be stopped at all costs.

before it is too late

Terribly so.

Now, make a thread asking for dropped/destroyed items in killmails. I want to know the color of your laser.

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Doek wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

the only real issue i see with this, is that the data is sent to a single person on his website,
a person who is an actual player, part of an active pvp corp.

when i remember all the *** against the GMs during beta times, that actually had not even the power to do anything but giving free teleports and changing terminal channel messages...
This API policy is a kind of riddle to me...

The policy is to don't *** abuse it or they'll stop spending time on it and/or just shut the whole thing down. I could have my corpmates come here and explain how disappointed they still are with me for not making a mass mailer back when the API was real-time (and it had been for like 3 years), but I think you get the point. (I never got that question anyway, most discussions concern the fitting tool and allowing comments on the killboard).

On this thread: it wouldn't hurt to be a bit more specific if you want to point out this outweighs the benefits in some way (because this is a pretty damn cool feature and a big plus over eve killboards). 'Generally' and 'just too much' seem pretty weak.

Let me just counter by stating that this is basically useless meta after the fact, most kills occur around terminals, teleports and SAPs anyway. Further increase the delay if you're in any way uncomfortable (that's my impression of this thread anyway), but it's old data and that doesn't qualify it as intel as far as I'm concerned (scouts reporting what they saw 15 minutes ago is laughable at best).

And then it also provides the killmail with a far richer picture of the battle, adding more to the speculation of why and how (blobbing, victims trying to get away, a full on engagement, etc), and it allows to make out who exploded on who.

Doek, you put a *** ton of work into your website, and tbh, I use it over Perp-kill because you alone busted your *** to get some pretty nifty features in.  I respectfully ask for you take these five considerations into why I as a player do not like this.

1.  Logistics.  Anything to do with moving a hauler or bots to a specific location at a specific time.  We aren't dumb we all know during peak times of play it's not the brightest idea to move a loaded hauler across Beta.  We wait for this time and we work very gracefully to secure routes.  What worrys me is if I as a player(hunting the hauler) know that a hauler dies at a specific time or place, I will simply log off in that area and log in with the general timeframe that the previous player died, or keep an eye on when they are online or Offline.

2.  Nora farmers on Beta.  If you see any bot with harvesting die you will go there and look and destroy someones plantation.  I don't know if you played prior to turtle islands online, but players went to GREAT lengths to hide these fields, and sometimes that's a PITA to watch nora burn. 

3.  Not all players who hunt and kill, look at the overall value of the death.  It takes people after the fact sometimes going, hmm... wonder why this guy was here.

4.  Will be able to easily camp epi fields/see them when miners die on the spot.

5.  Mission runners.  This hinders ANY guys wanting to farm on Beta.

I know Gunner went Ape *** crazy on this, but he is fired up so much I got a Text from a corp mate, going "I think Gunners going to stab someone, come in TeamSpeak."

Ultimately, I am trying not to be biased on this, but it is a little hard.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

44 (edited by Rage Blackout 2014-04-08 00:16:18)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

The answers to the questions:

Who?

Where?

What?

Are answered through playing the game, not from F5ing your website.

Please make a valid point or stop posting here.







Doek wrote:
Rage Blackout wrote:

You are upset because it is fun for you to do cool things with the website.

I feel bad because it is cool, but I know its wrong and must be stopped at all costs.

before it is too late


You can prevent the loss of Nagasaki and Hiroshima

do the right thing

Terribly so.

Now, make a thread asking for dropped/destroyed items in killmails. I want to know the color of your laser.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Rage, you can bash me all you want, but:
1. I did not put this into the API (I'm still a graphics artist, not a coder, hence my previous post...), and I didn't even know that we had this in it before yesterday.
2. As I said this is up to the community to decide, since as you pointed out, I don't know the ramifications of this.

Syndic: we give access to the API to anyone who wants to use it and tells us what website or program he wants to use it for.

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

You are our only hope for getting these types of things looked at.

I am sorry I am harsh sometimes, but I dont want it to take 2 years to recognize a big issue.

Please dont take it personally.


DEV Zoom wrote:

Rage, you can bash me all you want, but:
1. I did not put this into the API (I'm still a graphics artist, not a coder, hence my previous post...), and I didn't even know that we had this in it before yesterday.
2. As I said this is up to the community to decide, since as you pointed out, I don't know the ramifications of this.

Syndic: we give access to the API to anyone who wants to use it and tells us what website or program he wants to use it for.

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

DEV Zoom wrote:

you can bash me all you want

I and Jita typically get banned on all accounts for this.  BTW, don't let my previous post get muddled by nonsense.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Yeah bad example but the point is that you shouldnt do something just because you have the ability to.

The smallest thing can have a great effect on a sandbox game.

Beacon pits anyone????



Hugo Stiglitz wrote:

Actually, while the lives lost at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. While tragic, saved countless more lives than would have been lost had there been an amphibious invasion of the island of Japan and their mainland...

The next time you see a nuclear physicist/engineer. Tell them thanks, for saving your grandparents lives by keeping them off the beaches of Japan...

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

DEV Zoom wrote:

Rage, you can bash me all you want, but:
1. I did not put this into the API (I'm still a graphics artist, not a coder, hence my previous post...), and I didn't even know that we had this in it before yesterday.
2. As I said this is up to the community to decide, since as you pointed out, I don't know the ramifications of this.

Syndic: we give access to the API to anyone who wants to use it and tells us what website or program he wants to use it for.


Question is, do you want intel to be acquired in game though playing?  Or do you want intel to be made available on a website?

Stranger Danger / Capital Punishment / Cyberdown
Pillar of the Community
Ruler of Recruit Chat
CIR Ministry of Truth

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Tbh, Gunner. I think the best thing you can do for this topic is to stop posting and let cooler heads prevail.

You have made your opinions known to us all. But you coming on here flaming everyone who posts, is going to do nothing but muddy the waters and turn this into some sort of C/D forum war if it isn't already.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2