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Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Now Ville is supporting this but Aye Pod wont challenge Ville on his position ... wheres my popcorn lol

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

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Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

It's cause Aye Pod knows as soon as myself or someone else starts supporting something, it typically becomes changed.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

153

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Aye Pod wrote:

Its there. Just have to sift through the STC propaganda. Heat maps are cool but only without the info on specific kills.

I give up. I've read your summary of the counter arguments and the pattern analysis argument. The only conclusion i can make based on this is that I like the specific info and think that it should stay in. I still think it'd be awesome if someone could provide an actual list of arguments in favour of the removal though.

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

I like it.

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Ozy wrote:
Aye Pod wrote:

Its there. Just have to sift through the STC propaganda. Heat maps are cool but only without the info on specific kills.

I give up. I've read your summary of the counter arguments and the pattern analysis argument. The only conclusion i can make based on this is that I like the specific info and think that it should stay in. I still think it'd be awesome if someone could provide an actual list of arguments in favour of the removal though.

At this point the only argument that I can think of is the individuals choice for this type of information to be known about their self's. Current social media allows the individual to choose whether they want to share their location when posting images on instagram, facebook, etc.

Now we need to decide if this type of information in a game is also up for an individual to choose if they want that type of information released to the public or not. If this does fall under the individual's choice. Then I think the DEV need to turn it off until accounts have an option to allow this type of information released in the API data. 

Now I am not saying the individual has the choice. But I am saying this is something that needs to be thought about at the current time.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Are we talking a persons individual actions or something that occurs in a game.

If you saw I died on Nova does this mean you can show up at my work tomorrow?

Ville, after killing Paw 6 or 7 times on Nova, what possible extra info from the co ords is available from your analysis that is not available from your TS or simply looking at what island he died on?  His death co ords have had less impact than his patterns. But hey, I recognize sarcasm. Using it in an attempt to prove how OP the death co ords are actually has the opposite effect.

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Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Cassius wrote:

Are we talking a persons individual actions or something that occurs in a game.

If you saw I died on Nova does this mean you can show up at my work tomorrow?

Ville, after killing Paw 6 or 7 times on Nova, what possible extra info from the co ords is available from your analysis that is not available from your TS or simply looking at what island he died on?  His death co ords have had less impact than his patterns. But hey, I recognize sarcasm. Using it in an attempt to prove how OP the death co ords are actually has the opposite effect.

2/10 trolling attempt.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Ok Cassius. Im going to write slow so its easy to understand. Ok. Refute this if YOU can.

Here's a story. Ill title it "Merkle"

I'm a KB *** whose stats there move my epeen. I see that newer player *** Johnson has been killed in the at the same coords on more than one occasion at 0100 server time. I decide to gank his *** because I can. His fault right for going back again and again and being predictable. Well what if he is trying to grind missions and the only time he gets to play is when he gets off work for an hour. Before the coords on the KM it would have taken a few days of scouting and stalking him to know where and when he would be there but like Ville pointed out now I can get that kind of info outside the game and now only have alarm clock it for an easy kill.

The END. (This story is fictional and any similarities to real players isnt merely a coincidence big_smile)

Now tell me Cass in all of your wisdom. Should anyone have the ability to find out that information without having to play the game?  We both know this wont affect the vets as much as the newer players. Specific intel that can be gathered without having to play the game should not be allowed. Why do we need to have this discussion again in 6 months to a year when it is being abused. By then the damage will already be done.

I'm new to programming but I think we can still have the same hotspot features on the kill boards withOUT having to include the exact specifics on who was killed where.

Im not going to refute your points because they are all valid. big_smile The potential benefits you point out dont outweigh the potential of abuse this information brings with it.

We BOTH know the politics involved and the nature of what gets things changed in this game. Just because YOU dont have any political motivations in this discussion doesnt mean your corpmates dont either.

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Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Why are NPC vs Player kills on the killboard then? They have no business being there, and the fix is to remove them, and not the kill coordinates.

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Aye Pod wrote:

I'm a KB *** whose stats there move my epeen. I see that newer player *** Johnson has been killed in the at the same coords on more than one occasion at 0100 server time.

If you are getting killed on the same location at the same time more than once you are doing it wrong with or without the API data. Once you have been found farming and killed by someone already, knows you have been there anyways, even without any out of game data. The smart thing to do is change location, being predictable will get you killed.

RIP PERPETUUM

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Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Ozy wrote:

Why are NPC vs Player kills on the killboard then? They have no business being there, and the fix is to remove them, and not the kill coordinates.

I want NPC kill mails.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Cassius wrote:

Are we talking a persons individual actions or something that occurs in a game.

If you saw I died on Nova does this mean you can show up at my work tomorrow?


I will wave past the troll and post anyway.

Of course we are talking about in game actions. They have nothing to do with your work or the real world locations. But because this pertains to virtual locations doesn't mean we need to throw the player/individual options out the window.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

163 (edited by Gremrod 2014-04-24 18:34:45)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Don't get me wrong. I like the feature. But I think the heat map will do fine instead of exact cords.


EDIT

Also I would like to point out that this type of player choice or corp choice existed in game for gamma bases. The players as a whole (The corp) could decide to let their gamma base location show or not show on the the map in game.

I think these kill cords fall under that same type of choice.......

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

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Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Just to get things straight a little bit, the game is up against things like this:

http://map.zkillboard.com/

(look at for a while, see what I mean)

Or:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/HJ-BCH/stats
https://zkillboard.com/character/193782 … 4/month/3/
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cate … evelopment

I mean, EVE's 3rd-party developers don't *** around, at all. We barely got an API, EVE's already got a read/write API (CREST).

Honestly, I'm sorry for your three Noralgis plants, but think a bit bigger than that.

165 (edited by Gremrod 2014-04-24 18:42:04)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Doek wrote:

Just to get things straight a little bit, the game is up against things like this:

http://map.zkillboard.com/

(look at for a while, see what I mean)

Or:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/HJ-BCH/stats
https://zkillboard.com/character/193782 … 4/month/3/
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cate … evelopment

I mean, EVE's 3rd-party developers don't *** around, at all. We barely got an API, EVE's already got a read/write API (CREST).

Honestly, I'm sorry for your three Noralgis plants, but think a bit bigger than that.

I know I love those sites. But do any of them give specific moons of POS locations or any system specific locations in general? I don't recall them doing that type of specific information and looking now I don't see it still.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cate … evelopment

CCP API allows for a player to select specific elements of the character data that he/she is willing to share.

I understand AC is just starting with their API. But it needs to let players choose what data they want to share.

Bots getting blown up are fine for killboards. But specific locations to an X, Y cord is data I think that falls under character data that the player should be given the ability to pick if they want to share it or not.

I don't care about Noralgis plants either.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Doek wrote:

I mean, EVE's 3rd-party developers don't *** around, at all. We barely got an API, EVE's already got a read/write API (CREST).

Honestly, I'm sorry for your three Noralgis plants, but think a bit bigger than that.

Sounds like youre in the wrong game. big_smile

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

When it comes to players privacy as he explains, in that sense I would have to agree with Gremrod.

Gremrod: I think you have changed my mind about this.

RIP PERPETUUM

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Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Gremrod wrote:

CCP API allows for a player to select specific elements of the character data that he/she is willing to share.

Yeah, stuff like your skills, personal finances, assets, contacts, etc. But, chances are your corporation already has their API key submitted to one of the killfeeds. And if not, your attacker has. And that shows everything. You can't choose what to hide, no matter how stupid the loss is (which usually explains an unwillingness to share).

Where I'm getting at is that EVE has already established an excellent modus operandi, so why bother trying to satisfy a few concerned players and get the whole game dragged around a few years behind the trend. Peak gameplay is promoted with killboards and videos.

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

I missing the point where having the exact coordinates of players deaths in Perp's API is catching us up to EVE as I didnt see in any of those sites you posted where EVE is giving that same information.

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Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Aye Pod wrote:

I missing the point where having the exact coordinates of players deaths in Perp's API is catching us up to EVE as I didnt see in any of those sites you posted where EVE is giving that same information.

I'm arguing on the premise that EVE's system name is equivalent to Perpetuum's coordinates (like constellations are equivalent to islands). It's the smallest discernible piece of information required to find out about someone's habits and patterns through a 3rd-party source. Either you lock down gates or paths to teleports, but if you know someone has been somewhere or is going to be somewhere, that's the minimum amount of information you'll need.

As a though experiment, take away the game-specific scales and mechanics; it'll come down to the same thing.

171 (edited by Gremrod 2014-04-24 19:56:10)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Doek wrote:

Yeah, stuff like your skills, personal finances, assets, contacts, etc. But, chances are your corporation already has their API key submitted to one of the killfeeds. And if not, your attacker has. And that shows everything. You can't choose what to hide, no matter how stupid the loss is (which usually explains an unwillingness to share).
.

I totally agree that CCP has provided an excellent example of an good working API for game data.

I have no issue with kills going to a board without my choice in allowing such action to happen outside of the game.

But I do mind when it involves more detailed information like location cords. EVE API doesn't send that type of information for systems. So there is no reason for a player to choose in their character setting to allow whether or not to allow this information public since CCP has omitted it.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

172 (edited by Aye Pod 2014-04-24 20:28:10)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Doek wrote:

I'm arguing on the premise that EVE's system name is equivalent to Perpetuum's coordinates (like constellations are equivalent to islands). It's the smallest discernible piece of information required to find out about someone's habits and patterns through a 3rd-party source. Either you lock down gates or paths to teleports, but if you know someone has been somewhere or is going to be somewhere, that's the minimum amount of information you'll need.

As a though experiment, take away the game-specific scales and mechanics; it'll come down to the same thing.

C'mon Doek. You KNOW that an EVE system isnt the same as having the exact coords in perp.

173 (edited by Gremrod 2014-04-24 20:12:46)

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Doek wrote:

I'm arguing on the premise that EVE's system name is equivalent to Perpetuum's coordinates (like constellations are equivalent to islands).

I think this is wrong, and this is how I see it. (IMO) Islands are constellations and island region names would be a system.


Or you could also look at it like:

The blue islands are a single constellation and a single blue island is a single system.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Trusting players not to abuse something doesn't sound like a good idea.

Cut the coordinates please.

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Re: Dev Zoom, please remove location information from killmails API

Gremrod wrote:
Doek wrote:

I'm arguing on the premise that EVE's system name is equivalent to Perpetuum's coordinates (like constellations are equivalent to islands).

I think this is wrong, and this is how I see it. (IMO) Islands are constellations and island region names would be a system.

Yeah, I see your point. I realize I should've outlined it like this: in EVE, knowing the exact coordinates is about as useful as knowing the system (you'll just want to cover the gates and go from there). Same with Perpetuum; knowing the exact coordinates is about as useful as knowing the sector. Mostly because of the limited amount of pathways, teleports and outposts in a sector. If you ever hope to get something useful out of exact coordinates (which is why we're discussing this), you probably still end up checking out the same pathways, teleports and outposts as if you'd known the sector.

To be honest I find the whole idea of extensive pattern analysis to get a kill laughable at best, but it doesn't hurt to play devil's advocate.