Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

DEV Zoom wrote:

Spark Teleport: how balanced will be an ability to bring half of assets to an enemy beta terminal while keeping aonther half at your home base and then quickly teleport here and there for attacking/defence? I mean, beta terminals have no access restriction, that will make beta-1 islands more harder to defend.

You still have to transport your robots, weapons and everything to the “enemy beta terminal”. And once those are used up you still have to do it again and again if you intend to use spark teleports like this. Correct me if I’m wrong but the only issue I see with this is more fights on beta, and robots getting destroyed. (IF this will really turn out as a viable strategy.)


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Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Syndic wrote:

From my 1 month experience on Novaya Trava, roaming NPC caravans were only consistently spawning on the South teleport where they would just sit for days because the teleport was walled off. The rest of the island was completely NPC-free.

you must been on another instance of that island them me then... I always found a NPC group on Trava, in several areas on the island, and stuck on open passable terrain.
Ask Plato/Ghandi - he was kinda the only one who reacted on TS when i said "Observer in sight"

I have several questions regarding those tier changes.
- A, they are logical and necessary from productino standpoint. hopefully balancing wise too
- B, Naming of the newly structured Items - will that one be reviewed too?
- C, will there be a research revamp?

Please create a subforum in feature discussion and place there a Moderated Topic for each feature that you have in your TODO for next patches. Start with Tier changes

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78 (edited by Kokomut 2012-07-12 15:01:00)

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

DEV Zoom wrote:

Spark Teleport: how balanced will be an ability to bring half of assets to an enemy beta terminal while keeping aonther half at your home base and then quickly teleport here and there for attacking/defence? I mean, beta terminals have no access restriction, that will make beta-1 islands more harder to defend.

You still have to transport your robots, weapons and everything to the “enemy beta terminal”. And once those are used up you still have to do it again and again if you intend to use spark teleports like this. Correct me if I’m wrong but the only issue I see with this is more fights on beta, and robots getting destroyed. (IF this will really turn out as a viable strategy.)

It might not turn out as you envisioned, getting stuff into a beta terminal is piece of cake with current population and interzone teleport, just move during off hours.

The problem I foresee is there will be no engagements around the beta terminal as now you have no way of knowing how many enemy would instantly pop in. Ending in staring contests and dock up games.

Maybe if you make spark teleport expensive, like 10m or something.

Edit: Actually now i think of it, it could swing both ways. Just take what I mentioned into consideration.

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Balance in terms of nic doesnt always work as intended. IMO it should come down to the timer. You want the timer long enough that it stops ppl from jumping all over the game every few mins to taking so long they just hardly use it.

The other thing you could do is you can spark TP as much as you want that way market traders are not stuffed over. BUT there is a cool down timer on getting in a bot IF you TP more than once in the space of say ... an hour.
^ just an idea.

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80 (edited by Annihilator 2012-07-12 17:50:30)

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

spark teleport extension - for every level in this extension you gain 15km range, complexity 9
1h cooldown, just like for changing spark

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Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

Balance in terms of nic doesnt always work as intended. IMO it should come down to the timer. You want the timer long enough that it stops ppl from jumping all over the game every few mins to taking so long they just hardly use it.

The other thing you could do is you can spark TP as much as you want that way market traders are not stuffed over. BUT there is a cool down timer on getting in a bot IF you TP more than once in the space of say ... an hour.
^ just an idea.

No no no this should be like a teleporter.  That away if a fight breaks out on the other side of the world people can get there.

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Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Ville wrote:
Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

Balance in terms of nic doesnt always work as intended. IMO it should come down to the timer. You want the timer long enough that it stops ppl from jumping all over the game every few mins to taking so long they just hardly use it.

The other thing you could do is you can spark TP as much as you want that way market traders are not stuffed over. BUT there is a cool down timer on getting in a bot IF you TP more than once in the space of say ... an hour.
^ just an idea.

No no no this should be like a teleporter.  That away if a fight breaks out on the other side of the world people can get there.

Yes i know but the idea i posted at the end would be a way for ppl to still do that or to bump around stations to manage market stuff or w/e with out having to wait a long time to spark TP. the draw back is if they did that there would be a cool down timer for undocking so it cant be abused.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

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83 (edited by Rex Amelius 2012-07-13 08:17:39)

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Spark teleporting

I'd actually like to see this essentially unrestricted to start. We can speculate all day on how players will use (abuse) it. It could liven things up on the PvP front with quicker response to engagements AND liven up the market. Sparks without supplies are useless and hauling gear all over the map is a massive snore. I'd rather buy bots and supplies directly from market than haul them around during 'off hours'. This gives marketeers an opportunity to seed different markets and speculate on hot spots, perhaps.

2 cents

Sparking to other games

84 (edited by Syndic 2012-07-13 09:05:49)

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Annihilator wrote:
Syndic wrote:

From my 1 month experience on Novaya Trava, roaming NPC caravans were only consistently spawning on the South teleport where they would just sit for days because the teleport was walled off. The rest of the island was completely NPC-free.

you must been on another instance of that island them me then... I always found a NPC group on Trava, in several areas on the island, and stuck on open passable terrain.
Ask Plato/Ghandi - he was kinda the only one who reacted on TS when i said "Observer in sight"

The only NPC's that I saw outside the South teleport area, were the bugged mobs in the water on the coastline the day we came to the island. This was reported in a support ticket. I do remember some artifacter popping an Observer artifact near my miners, I also remember demobbing him and killing him as a thank-you note.

However let me outline the logic chain with NPC spawns;
-> On Alpha Player XYZ can make ~100k/hour in plasma,
-> On Beta Player XYZ can make ~150k/hour in plasma,
-> How much can Player XYZ make on Gamma if he/they slowboat in farm-fit Heavy Mech(s) back and forth across the island looking for bugged NPCs?
-> If answer is less then ~100k/hour, why bother?

And there lies the problem that makes Gamma not self-sustainable (excluding the trade-ores). For some reason, I charge myself money to produce/repair/prototype/reverse-engineer at my own station that I funded and built. I would absolutely love to hear the logical explanation for this from the Devs.

Another issue that comes to mind is that turrets do not open fire on NPCs. This means any future roaming spawns can potentially either spawn in player-bases or can walk into player bases with impunity. So in that scenario, Player X would have to duck between now-useless turrets his corporation put up as defense, blowing up roaming spawns inside the base then undocking a remote-repair bot to fix the damage caused by explosions.

We're supposed to be invading this planet, why are human-built turrets not shooting the enemy?

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Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Removing useful loot from SAP cans would only benefits corps which want to hold a beta outpost while living on gamma.  The SAP cans were the only good thing about intrusion 2.0 tbh.  Imo the beta intrusion system still needs changes, walls should be removed from beta and gamma made passable around the perimeter without the need for terraforming.  That's my 2c.

Spark teleports without any cooldown would be a bit odd imo.  In fact if the game had a population of 1k active people per night I would say it's horribly overpowered.  As it stands I can't tell how it would turn out.  Nobody seems to pvp anymore anyway so maybe it would encourage some fights.

+1
-Confucius

86 (edited by Kaldenines 2012-07-13 09:36:38)

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Yeah the NPC & turret thing is odd too.  Ideally turrets should shoot NPCs and NPCs should avoid turrets (rather than just drop free loot all the time).  However I imagine there would be a few technical difficulties in implementing that?

I have to say I love idea of being able to terraform anywhere on an island but given the way things are in the game atm I think the most realistic solution would be to only allow terraforming in the vicinity of a terminal.  That would lead to people building right next to the ocean though, which is why I would still suggest that there should be a non-terraformable boundary near the sea.

+1
-Confucius

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

After the awesome update that everyone said WOOHOO the caravans are moving on gamma!

1) I went into a Kain to kill some 5th star assaults and 2 5th start Kains. The caravan at that time was 2km from the terminal.
2) Took me about 20 mins (with a mech moving >70kph, doing about 500dmg every 5 seconds, with some downtime for travel)
3) I received some std mods, 1.5k plasma.
4) I can't "go to another caravan and not waste time on killing these guys", because I have to kill the caravan for a better one (potentially) to spawn in 10 mins.

End result - Unless the caravan is on your terminal, it's a time waster. Waiting for sparks.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Sounds like the gamma NPCs are just a nuisance for miners :S

+1
-Confucius

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Kaldenines wrote:

Spark teleports without any cooldown would be a bit odd imo.  In fact if the game had a population of 1k active people per night I would say it's horribly overpowered.  As it stands I can't tell how it would turn out.  Nobody seems to pvp anymore anyway so maybe it would encourage some fights.

Yes, with a population of 1000, I think unfettered use of sparks could be overpowered. But who knows, as we're not even close there with population. For now, it could help with some of the stagnation currently in game to make it simple. Hopefully a population of 1000 will come along and then you'll have better idea about it's balance.

Sparking to other games

90 (edited by BandwagonX9000 2012-07-13 11:04:11)

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

DEV Zoom wrote:

Suggestion:
Remove infinite NPC-seeds for construction blocks, not just building foundations. Let the players set their own price and build their own market.

We can’t remove the NPC-seeds for construction blocks, because they require colixum to build, so new corporations setting foot on gamma wouldn’t be able to build a mining outpost.

Just leave behind the pretending that this is a sandbox and just seed structures. It would fit your current modus operandi of not rethinking your game designs and just going for the easiest way out.

91

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

DEV Zoom wrote:

And here are some answers:

One simple thing in my mind would be changing some of he fees for market ads from fixed rates to a better percentage rate. It's actually really hard to sell stuff for lower prices right now. Wierd, right?

We propose to set the transaction fee to be always 1000 NIC, regardless of order duration. Of course we would reimburse the connected extension in this case.

The base market tax would be reduced from 12% to 6%.

Does that mean that tax reduction will now be able to reduce taxes to 0%? Should you be planning to remove that extension ... please dont. It would equal an immediate price increase of 4% for all sellers and traders.

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

syndic:

a, npcs are an opposing force to the player - as a gameplay element. why do you think of them as income? do you farm noob corps on beta for income too?

b, http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8977/stucknpcs.jpg <- not an observer, not an artifact spawn, right behind your terminal

c, Turrets also do not shoot at interference beacons, nor do they shoot at bombs, teleport beacons or other buildings placed right infront of them. its a general flaw in perp-AI that AI cannot shoot at non-player things (or have you ever seen a blue npcs shooting a green one, while they are supposed to hate each other?)

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Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Annihilator wrote:

syndic:

a, npcs are an opposing force to the player - as a gameplay element. why do you think of them as income? do you farm noob corps on beta for income too?

b, http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8977/stucknpcs.jpg <- not an observer, not an artifact spawn, right behind your terminal

c, Turrets also do not shoot at interference beacons, nor do they shoot at bombs, teleport beacons or other buildings placed right infront of them. its a general flaw in perp-AI that AI cannot shoot at non-player things (or have you ever seen a blue npcs shooting a green one, while they are supposed to hate each other?)

Ok, I gotta ask... Have you ever played any MMO before this? I mean seriously?

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94 (edited by Cassius 2012-07-13 14:43:16)

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Norrdec wrote:

After the awesome update that everyone said WOOHOO the caravans are moving on gamma!

1) I went into a Kain to kill some 5th star assaults and 2 5th start Kains. The caravan at that time was 2km from the terminal.
2) Took me about 20 mins (with a mech moving >70kph, doing about 500dmg every 5 seconds, with some downtime for travel)
3) I received some std mods, 1.5k plasma.
4) I can't "go to another caravan and not waste time on killing these guys", because I have to kill the caravan for a better one (potentially) to spawn in 10 mins.

End result - Unless the caravan is on your terminal, it's a time waster. Waiting for sparks.

Yeah, is this working as intended? I wont complain about it being harder to kill spawns, thats fine .... but having to chase a roaming spawn over 5 km of land because they dont stop running, or on a hilly green island having to run around and around to find a new LOS location just to keep shooting a continually moving spawn ... not too much fun ... Once a roaming gamma spawn is shot, why don't they stop and at least fight? I dont want them to just sit there to be killed, but they just never stop running away, or even assist the one in the spawn that you target.

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

They didn't stop running. They kept running so I had too. They do lock you and attack you when you are in range, but that's all.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

96 (edited by Ville 2012-07-13 16:04:56)

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Annihilator wrote:

syndic:

a, npcs are an opposing force to the player - as a gameplay element. why do you think of them as income? do you farm noob corps on beta for income too?
Yes, it's called M2S and Co when they came to our island

b, http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8977/stucknpcs.jpg <- not an observer, not an artifact spawn, right behind your terminal
Thats right and when they died they exploded and damaged the buildings
c, Turrets also do not shoot at interference beacons, nor do they shoot at bombs, teleport beacons or other buildings placed right infront of them. its a general flaw in perp-AI that AI cannot shoot at non-player things (or have you ever seen a blue npcs shooting a green one, while they are supposed to hate each other?)
They are an AI, they are suppossed to be limited in mental capacity, ones that are fully functional and competitive turn then game into a ...cough cough Themepark?

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Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Mongolia Jones wrote:

Making terraforming cheaper is a BAD idea.  If whole islands get completely terraformed (because it's cheaper) then say bye bye to small gang roaming of gamma.

It seems you guys green-lighted any idea that was thrown out there during that meeting, DON'T DO THAT!!

Currently, with a small population just a few people can completely cut off a teleport in just a couple weeks time.  With terraforming costing less, then those same few players can terraform that much more, which would be VERY bad indeed, especially if it's more than a few people doing it over a couple months.

Small gang roams are the basic unit of pvp in PO.  Every time you guys introduce a barrier to small roams, you lose players.  Terraforming is a basic obstruction to small gang roams.  Please reconsider this and consider making terraforming MORE costly than it is now.  Terraforming should take many weeks if not months or years to affect whole islands.

What have you terraformed or build I dont think you understand the current cost of gamma with the cost now it is limited to only corps/alliances that have multi billions of nic

Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

bleu wrote:
Mongolia Jones wrote:

Making terraforming cheaper is a BAD idea.  If whole islands get completely terraformed (because it's cheaper) then say bye bye to small gang roaming of gamma.

It seems you guys green-lighted any idea that was thrown out there during that meeting, DON'T DO THAT!!

Currently, with a small population just a few people can completely cut off a teleport in just a couple weeks time.  With terraforming costing less, then those same few players can terraform that much more, which would be VERY bad indeed, especially if it's more than a few people doing it over a couple months.

Small gang roams are the basic unit of pvp in PO.  Every time you guys introduce a barrier to small roams, you lose players.  Terraforming is a basic obstruction to small gang roams.  Please reconsider this and consider making terraforming MORE costly than it is now.  Terraforming should take many weeks if not months or years to affect whole islands.

What have you terraformed or build I dont think you understand the current cost of gamma with the cost now it is limited to only corps/alliances that have multi billions of nic

^^^ THIS QFT!

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Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

Syndic:
yes i have played other MMOs before. And the PvE part there felt much more entertaining, even in the full PvP areas.

Since you and Ville see "Sandbox" as soley PvP enviroment with full loss on death, there is no use in explaining you what could make perpetuum to a real sandbox game.

If you havent read the whole blog, i point out for you two the direction that Perpetuum is going:

DEV Zoom, Blog wrote:

Issue: Too few NPC spawns in general, with emphasis on starter islands.

    NPCs on Alpha 1 islands will only attack when attacked. This makes it possible to place more fixed spawns without interfering with mining, artifact hunting, transport and travelling. (Of course NPCs popping out of beacons and artifacts are not affected by this rule.)
    Increase all normal (non-starred) distress beacons to 10 waves.

THAT is themepark. go to your attraction booth (NPC spawn) and they will only start to "play" with you when you are ready for it. Its only missing the "put in a coin here to spawn npcs on demand" terminals all over the island. I dont think even WoW has such a dumbed down AI...

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Re: New devblog: The Gamma proposal

DEV Zoom wrote:

new tiers and robot variants - that's T5 and Mk3?

We have a new idea for making the tier system less linear and more accessible, it would look like this:

Normal tiered items according to the current system (new name in parentheses):
T0 (T0): stays as it is
T1 (T1): stays as it is
T2 (T1+): stays as it is, requires T1 modules to build like now
T3 (T2): remove current T2 modules from its components
T4 (T2+): stays as it is, requires current T3 modules to build
T5 (T3): brand new tier, no component prerequisites, uses colixum-based commodities
T6 (T3+): brand new tier, requires T5 to build

So the system would be built up of tier pairs, one normal variant that needs more “exotic” commodities as we go up in tiers, and one “+” variant that needs the normal as a component. The common trait of + variants would be lower fitting requirements than their normal variant. The important thing to note here is that higher tiers wouldn’t have cascading requirements anymore.

In the new system, tier designations for factional items would be:
T2+ -> T1F
T3- -> T2F
T4+ -> T3F

As for robot variants, the naming is yet undecided.

Personally I don't like this idea at all.  The system we have now is pretty good most items are "accessible" as almost everything can be purchased off the market.

I would rather see T5 as a more powerful item than the T4 (using gamma minerals to manufacture) and T6 as the same as T5 but lower weight and fitting requirements.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC