101 Reply by Sundial (edited by Sundial 2011-09-13 01:14:15)

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Vaelen Gar wrote:
Trap Card wrote:

What's your definition of blob?

I said in an earlier post that "blob" is a relative value, and because of that I try not to use the term much.  However, if I go into a fight and end up outnumbered more then two to one, I confess that it makes me feel "blobbed".

Sundial wrote:

Yeah.. the problem is finding a good ballance between attack and defense. If its too easy to defend, people blob up. If its too easy to attack, its not worth living on beta.

For the record though Sundial, and speaking only for myself, if I come onto your island I don't expect you to give me fair fights, though I certainly appreciate it when you do.  It's your island after all, and entertaining me isn't necessarily your priority.  I'm getting on a bit of a soap box here, but I just feel that detectors have given the defenders too much of an edge.

The problem is, everyone in the group must run a masker just to counter a single detector. Since everyone is running detectors nowdays that means the attackers must all fit a 500kg (sacrificing speed) module just to counter a single detecting light bot running around at 101kph. With high fitting requirements and heavy weight, its just not very practical for more than a solo roamer to equip one.

They need to add a module that completely nullifies detectors for an entire group (A new Nexus module), and not through masking. It simply needs to nullify the effect of a detector on the group without changing masking values. Also you should not be able to detect / sense anything that is on a teleport, same for anything on the teleport sensing anything outside.

That way it takes more than 3 detectors to lock down an entire island.

However defenders could use these modules too. So you would basically be going into their island blind.

Regardless, there needs to be a better solution to bypass detectors.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

102 Reply by Vaelen Gar (edited by Vaelen Gar 2011-09-13 01:19:28)

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

While I would certainly welcome your ideas into the game Sundial, my own feeling is to nerf detectors and maskers into the ground.  If I had my way, detectors and maskers would be:

T1-25m
T2-50m
T3-75m
T4-100m

After that, each level of detection or masking skill adds 10m, for a total of 200m max.  That would still be an enormous advantage in PvP.

This would make them tactical devices, and not an all encompassing Star Wars Defense shield.

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Vaelen Gar wrote:

While I would certainly welcome your ideas into the game Sundial, my own feeling is to nerf detectors and maskers into the ground.  If I had my way, detectors and maskers would be:

T1-25m
T2-50m
T3-75m
T4-100m

After that, each level of detection or masking skill adds 10m, for a total of 200m max.  That would still be an enormous advantage in PvP.

This would make them tactical devices, and not an all encompassing Star Wars Defense shield.

Yeah, of course the actual values could be tweaked. The last patch was a good step in the right direction, but its not enough to really let this kind of PvP happen.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

104 Reply by Arga (edited by Arga 2011-09-13 01:28:50)

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

There are larger land masses coming down the pipe, so the current small Islands may be lockable, but the newer large masses may end up being the 'wild west'.

I keep alluding to this from a trade perspective. Monitored Islands aren't necessarily secured, there could still be forces running around on them, a detector on a small bot doesn't stop the force from entering the island. It could still be possible to transport goods on and off an Island even if it wasn't totally secure, as long as you were aware of where the fighting is. Your in danger, but your not going to get ganked.

Wild west is having no idea what is out there, and no help nearby if you do have contact.

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Everything you say is of course true, but overcoming a 3000m range detector bot is not an easy thing.  Plus, you have no way of knowing when you’re detected or not.  If there was a detector detector mod I’d probably call it even, but you can still be monitored from obscene distances and not know it until a group comes in from all points of the compass.

106 Reply by Sundial (edited by Sundial 2011-09-13 02:20:08)

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Vaelen Gar wrote:

Everything you say is of course true, but overcoming a 3000m range detector bot is not an easy thing.  Plus, you have no way of knowing when you’re detected or not.  If there was a detector detector mod I’d probably call it even, but you can still be monitored from obscene distances and not know it until a group comes in from all points of the compass.

IMO signal detection without detectors should be based on your group size / interference level. Smaller groups / solo roamers much harder to detect, where as big groups of players show up from farther. This lets small groups have a chance to to select their fights against larger groups. This makes blobbing small groups of players much more difficult. This also makes ninja access to beta easier for smaller groups.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

107 Reply by Vaelen Gar (edited by Vaelen Gar 2011-09-13 02:33:39)

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

That's a very interesting idea, which I like a lot.

Edit - and the more I think about it, the more I like it.  Even for small groups, it would pay to spread out a bit, and larger groups would have to spread out a lot.

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Sundial wrote:
Vaelen Gar wrote:

Everything you say is of course true, but overcoming a 3000m range detector bot is not an easy thing.  Plus, you have no way of knowing when you’re detected or not.  If there was a detector detector mod I’d probably call it even, but you can still be monitored from obscene distances and not know it until a group comes in from all points of the compass.

IMO signal detection without detectors should be based on your group size / interference level. Smaller groups / solo roamers much harder to detect, where as big groups of players show up from farther. This lets small groups have a chance to to select their fights against larger groups. This makes blobbing small groups of players much more difficult. This also makes ninja access to beta easier for smaller groups.

OMG that's an awesome idea!

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Sundial wrote:
Vaelen Gar wrote:

Everything you say is of course true, but overcoming a 3000m range detector bot is not an easy thing.  Plus, you have no way of knowing when you’re detected or not.  If there was a detector detector mod I’d probably call it even, but you can still be monitored from obscene distances and not know it until a group comes in from all points of the compass.

IMO signal detection without detectors should be based on your group size / interference level. Smaller groups / solo roamers much harder to detect, where as big groups of players show up from farther. This lets small groups have a chance to to select their fights against larger groups. This makes blobbing small groups of players much more difficult. This also makes ninja access to beta easier for smaller groups.

HAHAHA....

A game that caters to ONE type of play style....

Yea that seems just like a sand box to me....really sandy...like a beach...full of single beach chairs.

Just Sayin
01000110 01110010 01100101 01100101 01101100 01100001 01101110 01100011 01100101 01110010 01110011
smileneutralsadbig_smileyikeswinkhmmtonguelolmadrollcoolyarr
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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Also can we get a beta version of Intrusion 2.0...just in case I don't like the 2.0 version...so we can roll it back to around a 1.59 version....well ish versions of whatever ish version works.

Just want to be prepared for the MASSIVE QQ to follow any intrusion change.

Just Sayin
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smileneutralsadbig_smileyikeswinkhmmtonguelolmadrollcoolyarr

111 Reply by Vaelen Gar (edited by Vaelen Gar 2011-09-13 04:04:15)

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

0110011100001111001010001 wrote:

HAHAHA....

A game that caters to ONE type of play style....

Yea that seems just like a sand box to me....really sandy...like a beach...full of single beach chairs.

I don't see it that way at all.  Nothing is stopping people from doing what they want.  There is just a mechanism for small groups to avoid large groups, or is large groups rolling over small groups something that you approve of?

112 Reply by Sundial (edited by Sundial 2011-09-13 04:36:40)

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Vaelen Gar wrote:
0110011100001111001010001 wrote:

HAHAHA....

A game that caters to ONE type of play style....

Yea that seems just like a sand box to me....really sandy...like a beach...full of single beach chairs.

I don't see it that way at all.  Nothing is stopping people from doing what they want.  There is just a mechanism for small groups to avoid large groups, or is large groups rolling over small groups something that you approve of?

Sadly, alot of people attracted to these games just play it for that... easy kills by not taking any chances by crushing smaller groups.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

113 Reply by Lemon (edited by Lemon 2011-09-13 04:55:20)

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

EDITED FOR TL:DR

TL:DR Small vs large group sizes are misunderstood right now....  10-20 is not large its small but under the current game population that is "large" for most.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

114 Reply by Vaelen Gar (edited by Vaelen Gar 2011-09-13 04:58:27)

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

I just have no idea where that came from.  Beta holders need the ability to defend themselves, but small groups should have the ability to roam.  A small group can be a nuisance, but can't really threaten a Beta Alliance's security.

Edit - Good points Lemon, but at this point I always run less then 20, by a lot, and I'm far from casual.  For myself I'm not asking that the game be balanced around my small group playstyle, just for the ability to do it.  As it is now, when I set foot on beta to a strong degree my survival depends on the luck of not blundering into a detector that I can't counter detect.  That doesn't sit very well with me.

115 Reply by Lemon

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Vaelen Gar wrote:

I just have no idea where that came from.  Beta holders need the ability to defend themselves, but small groups should have the ability to roam.  A small group can be a nuisance, but can't really threaten a Beta Alliance's security.

Im was just saying....

TL:DR Small vs large group sizes are misunderstood right now....  10-20 is not large its small but under the current game population that is "large" for most.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

116 Reply by Vaelen Gar (edited by Vaelen Gar 2011-09-13 05:00:57)

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Lemon wrote:

Im was just saying....

That comment wasn't aimed at you, you posted while I was typing.  My edit above was in response to your post.

117 Reply by Lemon

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

No i acknowledge and understand the Pain and issue with Detectors.

I would/could totally see adjusting and playing with it a bit on a test server to get a good feel for a nice work around.  As they make solo/mini gang play very difficult.

I for one have a few ideas on how to work around it but with out knowing what our end goal of balance is i dont think anything can really be put to the test with out knowing that.

Something i am always afraid of is a quick change or untested change resulting in very ugly things. Like Wasp's Ghost demobing light bots from 400m's out because the light e-war could only see it at 280m.

A Command Type bot that could have horrible self masking due to such a strong Signal detection that also had bonus's towards say nexus's and being a "Command" type bot is something i think would be quite fancy with lower speed and the ability for smaller bots to see it before its completely to late. because atm a detecting castel and ninja around groups especially with high detection skills and allow the detected to never know the better.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle
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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Completely agree with you on fast ill thought out fixes.  I'm certainly not asking for it to be done tomorrow, just that it be something the Dev's consider.  For now I'll keep collecting the treadmarks on my chest and hoping for the best.....

119 Reply by Lemon (edited by Lemon 2011-09-13 05:14:53)

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Vaelen Gar wrote:

Completely agree with you on fast ill thought out fixes.  I'm certainly not asking for it to be done tomorrow, just that it be something the Dev's consider.  For now I'll keep collecting the treadmarks on my chest and hoping for the best.....

Have no fear, i learned the hard way Nex/F-navy can field near 20 in there prime time.

Edit- You cant always think of everything, Most of my best ideas have come from discussion. There is only so much the Devs can account/predict for about players. Thats why test servers are awesome.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

120 Reply by Vaelen Gar (edited by Vaelen Gar 2011-09-13 05:27:51)

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Lemon wrote:

Have no fear, i learned the hard way Nex/F-navy can field near 20 in there prime time.

And when that happens, I'll be there (if I'm undetected) trying to make a nuisance of myself smile

So many edits to get a damn smiley face right...

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

Sundial wrote:

IMO signal detection without detectors should be based on your group size / interference level. Smaller groups / solo roamers much harder to detect, where as big groups of players show up from farther. This lets small groups have a chance to to select their fights against larger groups. This makes blobbing small groups of players much more difficult. This also makes ninja access to beta easier for smaller groups.

you know, thats already ingame, slightly different.

interference is reducing your detection. dunno if its also reducing your masking at the same time, which would lead to what you have described there.

Lemon - can you still secondary lock someone without showing up? thats actually a bug that should have been fixed already.

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

this thread is going places ... turned out to be quite interesting.

what we need is layered sensor options.

1. vanila bot: visual only, manual passive scaner type (as in EVE) with distance and item class.
2. passive scaner module. takes low accum, any free slot. works as today vanila bot (collects interference emision traces, acuracy falls with distance). item class, range, direction.
3. active scaner module - replaces detectors. moderate accum usage, high range and accuracy but active detection methods. makes an alarm go off on all robots in range (i.e. even "own corp/squad"). item class, range, direction, speed.

this will have natural counter modules:

1. module to lower your interference emission - this helps against first 2 situations.
2. radar signature masker - helps with last type, enables you to show up as a smaller class than you actualy are. higher tiers should enable to mask as a non-bot object (a can f.e.).

also the active scaner will increase your interference emision drasticaly and reduce your interference resistance. that will make the scaning bot effectively solo (or almost) since he will nuke the interference problems for a moderate group (10+ bots).

but these just raw ideas are ...

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

i was told a "you are seen" icon is not necessary... learn to play and memorize all possible detection ranges of bots you cannot even see wink

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

I'll have to respectfully disagree with that as a solution.

125 Reply by Arga

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Re: Perpetuum is on hold until Intrusion 2.0

How about adding in detection detecting to ECCM module?