1 (edited by Gaulois 2011-06-03 22:28:13)

Topic: Improving the Kernel research

Problem:

Currently, when you start researching kernels to craft, you have to unlock almost every T1 items, before you can unlock every T2 items... then T3 and T4.

It means that you literally need dozen thousands kernels before you can create some T4.
(T2-T3 not selling very well on the market... and not being that useful compared to T4)


It has the consequences that in most corp, all kernels are give to a very small number of persons.

This leads to different problems when this player cease to play, reset it's account, and it is very detrimental to solo producers, or small corps.


Suggestion:
I would like to be able to spread the research to more players.

I would suggest that when a player research a kernel, he gets a drop-down menu where he can pick between different speciality, For example: Global (the current system), Weapons, Armor, Engineering, Electronic Warfare...

Selecting a speciality would be less efficient than the standard "global" research option, but allow you to research a specific type of module. This would allow someone to research some modules until T4 and help the economy with some solo players and small corps being able to produce at least a few T4 Items each.

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

Re: Improving the Kernel research

I like this idea, so long as it is properly balanced. +1.

Re: Improving the Kernel research

Though the timing of OP posting this poses a great entertainment value, it's still a well-needed change. I have long claimed that the current research system is severely flawed and only caters to the largest of corporations.

Re: Improving the Kernel research

I tend to avoid looking at corp tags outside of corp dialogues for that exact reason tongue

Re: Improving the Kernel research

currently, I've been farming 3rd star light bots for the last 10 days, about 100-130 a night, i'm about at the 80% level of T3 for about 13 items.

So, I'm torn here. Doing this solo it has taken a long time, but on the other hand, if there were 15-26 corp mates each doing the same farming, we could get 1 player up to T3 inside a week, and probably through T4 in another couple weeks if they dedicated their time like I did.

How can the research be more productive for small corps, but still maintain a challenge for larger corps?

If reseach becomes easier, then to maintain the 'rarity' of T4 items, the material requirements will have to increase or the availablity of brio will decrease. Devs have already made it clear with the changes to Tiered gear and research that they do want to maintain T4's rarity.

Re: Improving the Kernel research

Could you be more obvious Gaulois? Now you have to work for your kernels so stop whining and get farming. We'll see you on the battlefield (maybe) in 6 months.

Re: Improving the Kernel research

Red Bishop wrote:

Could you be more obvious Gaulois? Now you have to work for your kernels so stop whining and get farming. We'll see you on the battlefield (maybe) in 6 months.

wait... whut? Was that an attempt to troll? I don't even understand what you're trying to say.

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

Re: Improving the Kernel research

if you did that post earlier, like when TBA has reseted that prototyping account he aquired, you would have got more positive response.

Today its a bad timing - with everyone knowing that your corp has lost its prototyper with all his knowledge base, and said reseted account not availiable as such anymore.

Thoug on topic - it would be better if you could decide to research for yourself or for corp
no transfer of knowledge afterwards, but in a corp with outpost any officer with access could use the prototype facility to build from the corp knowledge.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Improving the Kernel research

Here's a long thread with multiple wall-'o-text posts of Styx, your banned CEO, vehemently defending the 50% drop rate kernel nerf "to make it fair" to you because it would otherwise be too easy for everyone else and your corp worked *SO HARD*

L
U
L
Z

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Improving the Kernel research

fuking lulz too;
kernel drop was fking unfair, seeing some of you now asking for an "improvement" its hilarius.

11 (edited by Gaulois 2011-06-04 15:10:51)

Re: Improving the Kernel research

I don't really give a crap about Styx/kernel drops.
The reason my corp merged with M2S was precisely because we couldn't produce anything worthy after a few month in the game. Therefore, my suggestion.

And regarding the fact we ''lost evarthing lulz'' you are mistaken. I always produced and made my own money with a production alt, and I can create most T2 and some T3 already. I'm not certain what happened exactly, but nothing changed for me. And I'm probably not the only one.

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

12 (edited by SmokeyIndustries 2011-06-04 15:16:43)

Re: Improving the Kernel research

I dont think many people realize you're old msf gaulois.

Your suggestion might have garnered alot more support had the m2s name not been attached to it though.

The big Question here is, now that you're back in the same boat you were not being able to produce anything, will you be quitting m2s and going your own way? Would love to see e=mk2 back at it, you guys were always a ton of fun to fight.

Reset each other yet?

Re: Improving the Kernel research

Yeah, I know. As soon as I have a M2S tag, I am a bad cheater/exploiter/badman.

I wish they would leave the corp Drama in the corp section.

Sorry Smokey, but e=mk2 had around 11 active players, and there's only 3-5 of us left.

As long as we won't be able to get any T4 module by ourselves, e=mk2 and every small corps are dead.


To return to the subject... yes, such mechanic will help new corp to form, and help everyone to search and reach at least 1-3 T4 modules in their research tree.
This would therefore have the consequences that common stuffs like weapons would be produced by a lot of different people, and generate a much active market.
In the worst case scenario, small corps would be able to produce their essential stuff, without always relying of the market, and buying their modules with a 200% margin from the big corps.

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

Re: Improving the Kernel research

Gaulois wrote:

Stuff.....

As long as we won't be able to get any T4 module by ourselves, e=mk2 and every small corps are dead.

Stuff....
.

This is what I don't get... The only reason T4 became mega important was because we had enemies who dropped it like candy, everyone thought it was the only way to get even.

This is not the case anymore... I STILL don't have T4 laser on my Artemis, I generally fit L1 when i go out and I know FOOM are doing the same. Sure kernel research is important and will always provide an escalator of improvement but it isn't the be all and end all of everything now. I am hoping that more small corps will venture out and maybe form co-operative groups to start out on this path together, this will be good for them and good for the game.

I also think the more established corps have to step up and realise that right now is not the time to grow an ePeen and try to step into the vacuum. The game state is fragile and we should be working to help the game grow, not trying to replace what has gone before in order to be top dog.

Just my two penneth.

"like Kalsius, a shameless carebear and jitalover" - Syndic
http://www.perpetuum-intelligence.com
http://www.perpetuum-intelligence.com/killboard/

Re: Improving the Kernel research

To repeat; while I think it's a great idea to try to help smaller/solo groups get research, anything you do to improve it even slightly for 1-3 players gets magnified in corps with 20-30 players.

This is sort of basic: the only benefit to allowing small groups to get tiered item production is to sell them for profit. They aren't building them to help defend/defeat/Conqure because they don't have the man power to be combat force in the game. Making the aquisition of the research easier, means many small corps will be selling T4, driving down margins with the floor being set by the cost of Briochit.

Large corps, which will all complete research now that's it is easier, aren't interested in buying T4 items, since they can produce themselves. If they are a beta corp, their cost floor will be considerably lower since they don't have to buy norgalis.

So, small and large corps can all produce tiered items... where is the market then? New players won't be able to afford to buy them, and the floor price will keep them expensive. With no market, small corps have them but can't sell them, large corps are using them but not buying them.

TL;DR T4 items being rare is something the devs want, if anyone that really wants to can prototype T4 because research is easier, then they'll have to make the materials even rarer.

Re: Improving the Kernel research

@arga, yes, I agree. However, the syste I propose allow players to quickly unlock ONE type of module, but it's less efficient than the current system if you want to unlock everything.

The point of that one guy that farm a few weels, will ulock 1-3 T4, and not every T1 from the game.

@Kalsius: I get your point. But someone using T4 have much an edge over the rest of the world. You always get better range/speed, and both are king in PvP.
Even if T4 are really rare, and few people use them... there will always be some kind of phobia that if you loose, it's because they had T4.
That's why I would like to make T4 hard to get for Alpha and small guys... but still humanely possible to attain.

I am actually advocating that T4 be had to get, but accessible to everyone.

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

Re: Improving the Kernel research

T4 is easy to reach under the current system

if you search the stuff in order, you get some modules up pretty fast.

Weapons for example - eat your 2k drone kernels as basis
then finish up t1 weapon research with lvl2 small kernels
then finish up t2 weapon research with lvl3 small kernels
...

the lower the kernel the less possible research it contains - lvl5 assault kernels even contain t1 medium weapons - you should not start your research with them.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Improving the Kernel research

Reading this thread makes me think grinding for research might be the wrong way to go about it in the first place as there is no way for it to be balanced for both corporation and still cater for a solo player. Maybe using EP to unlock prototyping of tier items might make more sense IMHO.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Improving the Kernel research

Celebro - that was the first incarnation of the crafting system: license and extensions based.

imho, we could have a few more kernel types, like seperating the EWAR stuff onto ewar bots,
or based on npcs role (scout, interceptor, tank)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Improving the Kernel research

Annihilator wrote:

Celebro - that was the first incarnation of the crafting system: license and extensions based.

imho, we could have a few more kernel types, like seperating the EWAR stuff onto ewar bots,
or based on npcs role (scout, interceptor, tank)



Tbh didn't know they changed it to a grinding system, where an industrial must take out a combat bot account just to build higher tier items, or team up with a combat characters, who will have to trust you, on the chance you might leave or reset account.

This is what the Devs say about the game:

Time-based character development
No need for 'grinding'. You can be qualified despite you're not playing, since players get XP even if they are not logged in
.


I guess most players attracted by this feature of time based character development, won't be too happy on the research grind.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Improving the Kernel research

Celebro wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

Celebro - that was the first incarnation of the crafting system: license and extensions based.

imho, we could have a few more kernel types, like seperating the EWAR stuff onto ewar bots,
or based on npcs role (scout, interceptor, tank)



Tbh didn't know they changed it to a grinding system, where an industrial must take out a combat bot account just to build higher tier items, or team up with a combat characters, who will have to trust you, on the chance you might leave or reset account.

This is what the Devs say about the game:

Time-based character development
No need for 'grinding'. You can be qualified despite you're not playing, since players get XP even if they are not logged in
.


I guess most players attracted by this feature of time based character development, won't be too happy on the research grind.

There's got to be some importance put into the 'grind' if you don't all you've really got is an arena game with no persistence and accomplishments are defined by how long your accounts been subbed.

22 (edited by Annihilator 2011-06-05 10:20:23)

Re: Improving the Kernel research

dont get a false impression - the old system also had the requirement of a dedicated industrial agent to craft.
The crafting extension list was about twice as long. With high complexity skills.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Improving the Kernel research

This is probably a stupid idea.... but what about a ''skill'' that allows you to slowly research stuff without kernels over time? Kernels would just accelerate the process.

But it will probably become too easy with that kind of system. So a credit cost for the research might become necessary.

My blog about MMO design:
http://mmockery.wordpress.com/

Re: Improving the Kernel research

Gaulois wrote:

This is probably a stupid idea.... but what about a ''skill'' that allows you to slowly research stuff without kernels over time? Kernels would just accelerate the process.

But it will probably become too easy with that kind of system. So a credit cost for the research might become necessary.

Probably not a bad idea that's what I have been saying roll Time based skill to level up the tech tree. Using EP to buy kernals could also further your options with present system.

Been thinking about this system we have now, the biggest problem in the future when market is healthy and kernals have flooded the market. What would stop anyone from buying off all the research from market, getting T4 research done fairly quickly with a big wallet.

Doesn't this sound like buying your way into a heavy mech in a day?

RIP PERPETUUM

25 (edited by Xini Nemesis 2011-06-05 17:52:07)

Re: Improving the Kernel research

This thread earns +10 lol points and  a bottle of whine.