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Probably the biggest piece of news to come out of this blog was the Titan ore move.
I'm curious to see how this gets implemented with the other news of ore field reductions.
What I imagine is that miners will need to be moving all over the 6 alpha islands to get titan.
Its going to be interesting when Beta rivelers show up on Alpha thats for sure... The idealistic point of view of how this will make Beta corps less self-sufficient is naive. Who wants to be self-sufficient will continue to be self-sufficient.
I totally agree Syndic. The sparse nature of the alpha ore is going to make it irritating for sure on the Rivelers, not to mention travel times, and make it acutally harder to get then Epitron for beta corps.
It does suck having the game try and force you to play a certain way *cough cough force carebears to beta cough cough* but this could actually be good.
Really with everything over on beta there wasn't any flow between the Islands. Titan is an odd choice at first, but its the most abundant and cheapest, so the impact of having to purchase it will be the smallest; in comparision to making something like Immentium alpha only. And the value of titanium isn't going to go up to the level of Epitron obviously, because there is no risk component in mining it.
I do think some corps will simply just buy the titan without losing a step, and offer more Epitron for sale to offset the cost. Or maybe sell some T4 items to get NIC.
The ore nerf is going to make mining more difficult too for land raping rivelers too, on both islands. I think for this to acutally work though, alpha is going to need a lot more small or independant miners out there gathering from the smaller fields.
I said this on the blog already, but all it will do is encourage beta corps to operate on alpha.
M2S has bought a lot of ores on alpha previously. I bet Domhalarn are doing that now. The Norhoop Alliance operate on both alpha and beta so how this would make any difference apart from shifting more miners to alpha, I don't know.
In order to stimulate mineral trade and prevent corps being self sufficient they need to put different ores on different beta islands, or at least change the distribution a bit more severely to stimulate trade, or more reasons to hold territory.
I said this on the blog already, but all it will do is encourage beta corps to operate on alpha.
M2S has bought a lot of ores on alpha previously. I bet Domhalarn are doing that now. The Norhoop Alliance operate on both alpha and beta so how this would make any difference apart from shifting more miners to alpha, I don't know.
In order to stimulate mineral trade and prevent corps being self sufficient they need to put different ores on different beta islands, or at least change the distribution a bit more severely to stimulate trade, or more reasons to hold territory.
That, pure and simple. There'd needs to be differentiation between the islands in terms of the mid level ores to encourage trading and the use of Alpha corps as brokers.
What I don't get is some of the comments above.... On one hand people agree with the comment that corps will still be self sufficient and then state they will trade out. That's the point surely? if you trade out the ore, you aren't self sufficient, you may be building everything you need but you are playing in the marketplace to be more effective.
I am waiting to see what happens in terms of profitability. Those on Beta can surely make more NIC (either pure NIC or resources) than being on Alpha? If this is the case, any beta corps wholesale moving their mining fleet to alpha to mine Titan is putting themselves at a disadvantage? Sure there will still be members of beta corps who semi afk mine on alpha, but the more you do on Beta, the more NIC you make.
Hopefully with more players, more Market action we will see Alpha corps step up and act as suppliers to beta corps. There is an opportunity here, let's see who seizes it.
That, pure and simple. There'd needs to be differentiation between the islands in terms of the mid level ores to encourage trading and the use of Alpha corps as brokers.
What I don't get is some of the comments above.... On one hand people agree with the comment that corps will still be self sufficient and then state they will trade out. That's the point surely? if you trade out the ore, you aren't self sufficient, you may be building everything you need but you are playing in the marketplace to be more effective.
I am waiting to see what happens in terms of profitability. Those on Beta can surely make more NIC (either pure NIC or resources) than being on Alpha? If this is the case, any beta corps wholesale moving their mining fleet to alpha to mine Titan is putting themselves at a disadvantage? Sure there will still be members of beta corps who semi afk mine on alpha, but the more you do on Beta, the more NIC you make.
Hopefully with more players, more Market action we will see Alpha corps step up and act as suppliers to beta corps. There is an opportunity here, let's see who seizes it.
Its quite simple Kalsius...
Corps that want to be self sufficient (like mine) will be self sufficient regardless of what mechanics are put in. Mainly because 1 part of the community like yourself, are playing for NIC and profit, whereas we play for PVP & our corporation.
That puts us - and all corps like us - in the position where we have a lot of something thats useless to us (NIC), but its also something you cherish above everything. Very similar to giving pearls to indians.
So far we've purchased every bit of ore people on Alpha had to sell, mainly for the reason that we were grinding out the tech tree after the kernel nerf. Once this is done, we will return to complete self-sufficiency, down to producing our own mining charges.
At that point all the ore we're buying up weekly through private contacts in all corporations, which amounts to ~500-600 mil NIC a week for the last ~month, will start flooding the market; simply because once we're done with the tech tree the only thing left to do in game for us is mine & produce & PVP.
It wont cost us anything to deploy our entire mining fleet of some ~19-22 rivelers to Alpha with sufficient T4 Nexus support, when we require some titan. With the reduction in mineral refresh, what it means is that we will - without intent - strip-mine entire Alpha islands of titan when its "titan day". The only annoying thing in the process would be if we had to actually MOVE the entire fleet and assorted mods, but we have ample time now until the patch arrives to mass-mine titan ore, and equip all of our miners with an Alpha side Riveler and a Beta side Riveler.
And thats just from one corporation. Now imagine how it'll look for Alpha corps when all the current Beta corps start fighting over who can mine out the titan on Alpha... Hopefully there will be enough for everyone in the 6 islands, but we'll see.
The fundamental problem is the conflict of viewpoints; communist corps don't care or have much use for NIC. capitalist corps depend on NIC. Catering to one to the point where they get everything they want will kill the other, and in the long run only serve to make the game lose more players/become more shallow.
The trading will really kick in when there is Gamma islands and it is simply a waste of time to go through 10-20 teleports with transport convoys to deliver the equipment and then bring the raw ore back. What we have now is baby steps, and everything should be developed accordingly in mind that Beta is not end-game, just a mid-game step towards the real deal.
The trading will really kick in when there is Gamma islands and it is simply a waste of time to go through 10-20 teleports with transport convoys to deliver the equipment and then bring the raw ore back. What we have now is baby steps, and everything should be developed accordingly in mind that Beta is not end-game, just a mid-game step towards the real deal.
I totally agree with this part!
I would also like to clarify our slightly differing view on self sufficiency. Right now, you are not self sufficient, to the extent that buying mins and establishing trade contracts is better for you. This is what I want more of in the game. My definition of self sufficiency is, not relying upon any external parties for production or resource gathering. I differentiate complete self sufficiency from production self sufficiency and resource self sufficiency.
However, what you are saying is that in order to maintain your self sufficiency you are willing to spend time doing a less profitable activity, that requires more logistics and means spending less time doing your primary activity (PvP). This seems like madness to me.
If you hold a beta island, and can buy/sell more profitable items to trade for less profitable items, why would you move 20+ people for titan day? Surely doing "Epri 2hours", and then paying someone else to do "titan day" for you, means you get to do more of your primary activity?
P.S. I prefer communist type models and we operate one currently, this however does not mean we do not trade with the capitalist dogs to maintain a level of production self sufficiency 
If (IF) theres not enough titan for everyone prices will rise and alpha dwellers can sell their (stockpilled) titan for ridiculous prices.
This will happen sooner or later. Especially if the market recovers real fast (which i hope).
Buying titan from alpha dwellers (on the free market) is efficient because it saves you a lot of time. And if you dont have NIC .. because you are a communist .. well thats your problem.
Go trade goods instead (like people did in stone age) ;P
I think you dont understand the value of NIC.
And please dont think that alpha dwellers are a bunch of simpleminded ***. They will mine the titan - it just became their "epi".
And they will kick your *** if you try to fool them 
There will always be enough titan ore. I do not see why this change was needed. The increased yield but slower regrowth is good enough. You'll no longer be able to just live and mine one outpost. It'll give a reason to owning a home away from home and mining there. Mining an entire island rather than a tiny bit of an island.
Removing titan or will just means most players will be mining on Alpha. Alpha island are already getting heavy mechs (Less reason for them to trade with beta island owners).
I totally agree with this part!
I would also like to clarify our slightly differing view on self sufficiency. Right now, you are not self sufficient, to the extent that buying mins and establishing trade contracts is better for you. This is what I want more of in the game. My definition of self sufficiency is, not relying upon any external parties for production or resource gathering. I differentiate complete self sufficiency from production self sufficiency and resource self sufficiency.
However, what you are saying is that in order to maintain your self sufficiency you are willing to spend time doing a less profitable activity, that requires more logistics and means spending less time doing your primary activity (PvP). This seems like madness to me.
If you hold a beta island, and can buy/sell more profitable items to trade for less profitable items, why would you move 20+ people for titan day? Surely doing "Epri 2hours", and then paying someone else to do "titan day" for you, means you get to do more of your primary activity?
P.S. I prefer communist type models and we operate one currently, this however does not mean we do not trade with the capitalist dogs to maintain a level of production self sufficiency
You misread me Kalsius. Our contracts & ore purchasing will end pretty much as soon as we wrap up the last few tidbits we need; at that point the only thing to do in-game will be mine, produce, and PVP.
It is a question of content; and the ultimate reason why corps like ours are thriving where corps like M2S are dying/hibernating-waiting-new-content. Currently there is what, 200-300 people actively playing the game? You can't only do PVP with those sort of numbers... The sheep have been all but eradicated, already the wolves are tearing each other apart for more PVP.
There is no "less profitable activity" in my mind... People spending 5 hours of their life to participate in a titan mining op, or in an epriton mining op; that holds equal value and should be celebrated as an achievement in the corporation, those people deserve every pat on the back they get for a job well done. That is our content... creating team-goals and moving to achieve them together. Yesterday it was the tech-tree, tomorrow it will be something else.
Look whats happened already with the mentality of "lets make mining more involving", by nerfing things and spreading out the fields. On paper in ideal conditions for the theorycrafters feeding the Devs via MSN/Skype whatever, it makes sense. Give people an incentive to spread out. In reality it works differently with the human factor; nobody spreads out. They just stop playing. Like in that topic, why should someone go out in a 40 mil mining fit to a remote location to mine? The only thing they will see is blips on the radar, followed by some sounds and then they'll be in the station looking at the screen wondering what just happened. Where is the profit for a 40-mil riveler mining something far away from the outpost? What happened to risk-vs-reward?
If you want people to spread out, then you stagger the refresh rate and yield rates so they gradually increase the further away you get from an outpost. So near the outpost you have enough to keep 1-2 miners busy for a bit, 1k from the outpost you have 25% more, 2k you have 25% more, etc etc.
The game is being balanced around ideal theoretical conditions, the theorycrafting supplied by the few Closed Beta people who got in tight with the Devs. It has not worked so far, it is not working now, and Im fairly sure it wont work in the future because doing the same approach 3 times and being proved wrong by the statistics doesn't mean it is going to work for the 4th time.
The market will not magically ressurect UNTIL the server average technology level advances to the point where the mentality "Im not selling my tech to supply my enemy... let them wallow in T2-T3, I'll have advantage with T4" is irrelevant. Then there will be a reason to sell high-tier mods, in order to buy low-tier ore.
Until that happens, all you will see is self-important non-factors prancing about deliberating how the game should be balanced in ideal conditions to ressurect the market, spread people out, balance PVP in ideal conditions etc. None of that will happen, simply because of the human factor that is consistently NOT being taken into equation.
You misread me Kalsius. Our contracts & ore purchasing will end pretty much as soon as we wrap up the last few tidbits we need; at that point the only thing to do in-game will be mine, produce, and PVP.
I didn't, my post wasn't clear on my interpretation, editing posts on the iPad is hard so I didnt bother I understood you wanted to move to a self sufficient model after you were ready, however, whilst you or any other beta corps can, I think the game is broken. My 2nd paragraph was aimed at your total self sufficiency goal, my first at your current model. My apologies.
I have no issue with your points and I think it is honorable that seeing ops like "titan day" as a corps achievement is definitely a worthy goal. However, even in communist corps there has to be a point where allowing others to do the alpha work is more beneficial to your corps than dragging everyone back to alpha.
In no way am I disrespecting your corps model, it just happens to have become part of the discussion
What you do highlight however is the critical need for the DEVs to look beyond changes to existing systems to try and move people around. Why is it not worth the 40m riveller to go mining in a remote spot? Because that Riveller doesn't need to be there to mine the good stuff, it can be found within 2km of an OP!
Right now, there is little incentive to spread out because everything can be found so close to home. No one will spread out further either until things like POS are in game and there is a reason for you to not move your 20 corps mates to alpha, you'll need to be nearby to defend your POS. Without this part of the mechanic suite, mining on alpha for beta corps is easy and again breaks any economic model people want the game to move towards.
I also want to get back on my hobby horse about mineral sinks. Right now there isn't enough minerals cycling through the market, people aren't dying enough. Now, this is hard with fewer players but it is also because right now, you CAN have 1 op a month per se and get all the titan you want. That is broken, if there aren't enough outlets for materials and NIC the markets will always be broken no matter how much the current mechanics are tweaked.
The way it's worded makes it sound like they're increasing the rate of gain 50% while reducing the regen of the ore by the same .. I'm not sure how this could be looked at as anything but a further mining nerf.
This will make it so much easier to kill fields and have them take weeks to grow back, and Beta corps will for sure descend like a plague of locusts and suck up everything they can now before they head home.
There is no reason why a Beta corp can't afford to have another set of mining bots on alpha for strip mining and not even have to move their fleets. This will go very poorly for Alpha corps/soloists/small corps and not help the market the way I think they think it will.
I don't think this would be nearly as bad if all the Alpha ores hadn't already had deposits cut in half. I wonder what research they did that indicated removing Titan from Beta would some how be an economic stimulus. The reasoning seems very weak from where I'm sitting.
I didn't, my post wasn't clear on my interpretation, editing posts on the iPad is hard so I didnt bother
I have no issue with your points and I think it is honorable that seeing ops like "titan day" as a corps achievement is definitely a worthy goal. However, even in communist corps there has to be a point where allowing others to do the alpha work is more beneficial to your corps than dragging everyone back to alpha.
In no way am I disrespecting your corps model, it just happens to have become part of the discussion
What you do highlight however is the critical need for the DEVs to look beyond changes to existing systems to try and move people around. Why is it not worth the 40m riveller to go mining in a remote spot? Because that Riveller doesn't need to be there to mine the good stuff, it can be found within 2km of an OP!
Right now, there is little incentive to spread out because everything can be found so close to home. No one will spread out further either until things like POS are in game and there is a reason for you to not move your 20 corps mates to alpha, you'll need to be nearby to defend your POS. Without this part of the mechanic suite, mining on alpha for beta corps is easy and again breaks any economic model people want the game to move towards.
I also want to get back on my hobby horse about mineral sinks. Right now there isn't enough minerals cycling through the market, people aren't dying enough. Now, this is hard with fewer players but it is also because right now, you CAN have 1 op a month per se and get all the titan you want. That is broken, if there aren't enough outlets for materials and NIC the markets will always be broken no matter how much the current mechanics are tweaked.
You blatantly used that to brag about having an ipad didnt you. 
I personally dont think anything that reduces the "content" we can offer to our players is "more beneficial". If they don't know how much effort it goes into mining it, refining it and producing it and transporting it they won't respect the effort involved from all aspects and players in our corp.
The main reason why nobody will spread out isn't because stuff is available close to the Base, quite on the contrary! Nobody will spread out because the risk vs reward isn't balanced, risking a 40 mil miner solo-mining even 1km from the Outpost doesn't offer anything close in the sense of reward. Hell, mining 500m from the Outpost can easily get people killed if they're not 100% careful.
And with the mining nerfs, there aren't any "good stuffs" away from base, the field 500m from base is the same as the one 6-7km from the base. There is no staging in the risk vs reward, the risk gradually increases the more you move from the outpost, but the reward stays globally the same.
Why shouldn't Epriton fields 4-5km from closest outpost/teleport be as fat as they used to be before they nerfed things into the ground? Now THAT would be an incentive for people to spread out.
Besides, depending how they implement POS, its just going to lead to alarm clock raids.
i think one of the main things you miss in your discussion is the impact of 50% more BASE yield per cycle.
atm you get not much per cycle, and your only chance to increase the ammount of minerals per minute you risk your expensive miner out there, is to equip it for the absolute maximum effective mining equipment (T4 mining laser for short cycles, t4 accumulator stuff to keep them working, t4 tunings) and not a single bit in defense. Rivelers are paper-targets even for small combat bots.
now compare those numbers:
Adv. robotics 8,
extensive mining 8,
extensive titan mining 8,
extensive epriton mining 8,
t4 tunings, MK I Riveler/Termis
ammount per cycle and mining lasernow / after
Titan ore: 1170 (0,0585 U) / 2015 (0,10075 U)
Epriton: 325 (0,08125 U) / 605 (0,15125 U)
Nah 
To me there is a dichotomy here that we need shorter distances for PvP but larger distances for industry/trade.
People want to be able to PvP easily, without having to spend an hour getting somewhere to find no fight. Industry/trade only really thrives when there is sufficient distance to promote trading and production specialisation in certain areas.
This is where the Titan change probably, as I am now coming to realise, won't make the difference it should. The distances needed aren't there to make it better for a corps to buy from alpha based corps rather than mine themselves. Beta corps will descend, as the poster above states, on Titan fields on alpha and strip them bare. This will make it even harder for alpha corps to mine effectively, and leave no reason for trade to beta.
There needs to be incentive for beta corps to stay on beta islands, right now it doesn't exist.
the impact of that change wont be very big.
like the interference implementation had only a small effect on bigger pvp battles, (until recently i heard), will this one not affect gameplay pretty much.
i saw dedicated "beta" corps mining on alpha islands many times over the last few weeks - i dont expect many more to come.
the main impact will be that you will see more lithus passing alpha-beta teleporters, may it be with self-mined or bought Titan ore...
like the interference implementation had only a small effect on bigger pvp battles, (until recently i heard), will this one not affect gameplay pretty much..
I'd go so far to say that interference hasn't changed the outcome of an engagement in comparison to if it wasn't there.
So just to sum up to any devs reading this:
Please distribute mid-level minerals to create supply/demand across different parts of the world. Note: this must be done between beta islands so that it can be under player control not Syndicate.
The current titan ore change won't make any difference to the current or future levels of self sufficiency demonstrated by corps.
Perhaps we should now discuss what minerals could be differently distributed and where. Should this be implemented with new minerals or should the current ones be changed and if so, how?
So just to sum up to any devs reading this:
Please distribute mid-level minerals to create supply/demand across different parts of the world. Note: this must be done between beta islands so that it can be under player control not Syndicate.
The current titan ore change won't make any difference to the current or future levels of self sufficiency demonstrated by corps.
Perhaps we should now discuss what minerals could be differently distributed and where. Should this be implemented with new minerals or should the current ones be changed and if so, how?
http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/24963/#p24963
actually i hope, the titan ore change is only the beginning.
Yep. Maybe this is just the first step in moving minerals around.
One thing that is being missed here is that there will be (6) more Islands full of minerals and roughly the same amount of players. I don't think running out of ore will be an issue, running out in one spot will be though.
I'm sort of surprised that the devs mentioned 'self-sufficency'. I think what they really meant was full vertical integration. Being self-suffcient is a goal in and of itself as Syndic points out, so this isn't about breaking that up. What you do mention is that for now, it is expidient for you to buy minerals to pursue other interests. This kind of change is something that will may make OTHER corps also find it expedient (if I keep spelling it different I'm bound to get it right eventually) to buy titan.
Something that is being minimized here is the logistics of moving ore around. It takes ALOT of titan to make the big bots, and while it may not have been all that apparent seeing just 1 corp moving Titan, it should be more pronounced now with all Beta corps needing to move it. Strategically this provides alpha corps with an opportunity to impare beta production, to weaken them for an attack, which is something that I mentioned in the 'king of the hill' model.
can you just stay the *** off ore for a couple of months or so? Or u gonna change it again when we increase with popupulation and mess again with it as soon we have a reducing population etc etc.
Why make a basic thing but very mandotary and needed part of the game more anoying as it alrdy is?
You wanna make corp mining operations obsolete? U think it's of any use for an op to move half the map spend there 30 min and then move again? Do you realy think it will help the game in any way? Do you realy not get it that the mass clearers of fields us the mats for corp and not for sale..
Leave beta places alone pls, they not flooding the market, it's BS adjusting mining there, u alrdy have an increased risk wich means u will need people watching/protecting, and scouting to ensure you can mine safely.
Beta should be selfsufficient, and have MORE materials (next to epitron) then Alpha.
And if you insist on changing the mining as it is now, persueing your goal to drive away even more players, change the way of scanning fields, they are focussed on large fields and not 10000's *** fields.
PVP should be easier to get to and last longer.
The patch makes PVP easier to get to but PVP will still be far too short with little time for anything but tactical running away when you can't win.
PVP should be easier to get to and last longer.
The patch makes PVP easier to get to but PVP will still be far too short with little time for anything but tactical running away when you can't win.
I disagree PvP needs to last longer as there have been many fights both small and large that have lasted for over an hour, it's simply dependant upon the situation. I personally like the fact that PvP can be over quite quick as it lends itself to a more skill full activity, you have less time in which to make good decisions, bad decisions are amplified over a shorter length of time as opposed to a long length of time where you would be able to correct them and negate the effect.
What PvP needs to be is meaningful and less optional however that's a completely separate topic.
I'm sort of surprised that the devs mentioned 'self-sufficency'. I think what they really meant was full vertical integration. Being self-suffcient is a goal in and of itself as Syndic points out, so this isn't about breaking that up. What you do mention is that for now, it is expidient for you to buy minerals to pursue other interests. This kind of change is something that will may make OTHER corps also find it expedient (if I keep spelling it different I'm bound to get it right eventually) to buy titan.
Something that is being minimized here is the logistics of moving ore around. It takes ALOT of titan to make the big bots, and while it may not have been all that apparent seeing just 1 corp moving Titan, it should be more pronounced now with all Beta corps needing to move it. Strategically this provides alpha corps with an opportunity to impare beta production, to weaken them for an attack, which is something that I mentioned in the 'king of the hill' model.
Unfortunately Arga, I've already explained the reasoning behind the ore-purchase in our case. When youre shoveling in ~120 mil NIC a day from kernel grinding, it makes sense not to add another grind and force the corporation to mine on top of that. That is however a very FINITE position, because the technology tree has an end. And once that is finished, there is no more reason for purchasing ore when you can mine it yourself and create objective-driven content for your corporation.
Indeed it takes a lot of titan to build bots, but consider this: Every miner is in a riveler now a days. That automatically means they are lithus-capable. The shield skills required to make a lithus just ignore everything that is weaker then 3 close-range fitted heavy mechs aren't that expensive.
10 lithus = 48 mil of titan ore moved in one trip.
The logistics aren't that big of a deal when you solve it the traditional way - manpower saturation.
PVP will last longer - the damage2mana... err damage2energy modules will probably enable active tanking
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