Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Arilou wrote:

My main complaint (which I've either mentioned here or elsewhere) is that what PvE-only types consider to be an improvement to PvE is inevitably something that moves it closer to the feel of PvP but without it actually being PvP.

stEVE examples would be Sleepers and incursions: PvEers were begging CCP for rats that acted with more tactical intelligence, appeared in less-static and less-predictable forms, appeared to have motivations beyond standing around waiting to be killed, were occasionally overpowering, dropped better loot, represented a greater risk, etc. etc.

Every single one of those things is already and automatically there in PvP. There is just (among certain people) some massive psychological wall such that getting all this from an AI is heaven, and getting it from other players is total hell. In the meantime, devs end up spending countless person-hours recreating something the game already has. Then I have to wait yet another year for devs to get around to sprucing up graphics, expanding the world, and improving on the actual gameplay.

@Johnny/Arga: I've no problem at all with there being safe spots. But they shouldn't be places you can spend your whole game life without being bored to tears.

Where is my + rep button sad

127

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Johnny EvilGuy wrote:

Over a decade later, there's no reason why some of the situations that are unique to MMOs (varying player skills, fittings, numbers hunting together, etc.) can't be overcome.  AI programming that emulates human behaviour is a complex undertaking, but not insurmountable..

Well, it seems to me the amount of effort required to get AI right is near impossible on a budget when complexity goes up. I once had a talk with an AI developer working at Guerrilla (Killzone is one of their titles), he showed me some impressive tech for letting the AI deal with the player and squad behavior (up to par with scientific research on the subject, e.g. AI and multi agent systems), but it was immensely complex (they had to dedicate PS3 cores to the AI just to handle their shenanigans).

Also, I'm not sure if it was a thing with Unreal, but I remember from working with Quake-engine bots no AI really just 'worked'. You had to litter your maps with hints and waypoints if any human-emulating bot was going to show some decent skills. Again, the amount of effort you have to put in to just get AI barely working is fairly large.

I don't know. I think they did a decent job and it does surprise me more than most MMO's (I guess not behaving human can also be a pro).

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

anyone who's ever played rising force online might attest to the dumbness of their AI wink  but the internals are actually pretty complex.  Setting all of their triggers for the dev is the bugger. 

Static AI is easier in the sense of stand in your spot and then react, don't necessarily act independentently.  Wont go into their full stats but its like...

Radius in which you spawn from your origin point.
Speed you walk when "idle", speed you walk in "agro" mode (move, WarMove)
Speed (im ms + or - some randomosity) at which you will agress an opponent (opponents are set via player flags per race, or flagged against all player races)
Will you help a fellow monster?
Will you call for help if you need it?
At what points are you "in trouble"? (based on hitpoints, ranges from "Goodtookay, okaytobad, badtoworse, wierd flags like that)
What will you cast/do to your primary target at each point at what percentage?
What will you cat/do to ANY opponent if they do any of the following (skills defined at 4 letter/number combos)
What will you SAY at certain points (helping a 'friend'? BadToWorse? A curse spell cast on you? Randomly during the fight? When you use a certain skill?)
... then plus your base stats (an F-ton of those too, as complex as the player, which doesn't even look so complex from the client UI).

I wanted to learn to program AI's in an existing system, did so...  and had to walk away burned out until I can finally crawl back weeping.  smile  They're a pain wink  Specially when you need like 300 individual special complex ones in a month.  A programmers' head (dev-y types) can wrap around them easy enough but the mroe comlpex they are.. and even those are simple, the less of them you can have active on a map... (processing power serverside)...

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I play MMOs. I need a signature which is deep, thought provoking, and devours bandwidth with the voracity of rabid weasels. It is also, by nature, vaguely sad with a tinge of my obvious internal, unfathomable loneliness. Like this, sad  , but at 1.3megs packed into 2 by 6 inches. ANIMATED.

129

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

and the more complex the AI is, the harder it is to fix bugs, which are more prevalent

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Doek wrote:

they had to dedicate PS3 cores to the AI just to handle their shenanigans)

I recall there being some mention about that.  AI can be remarkably inefficient, but planning and implementation of the design can hide a large number of processor efficient shortcuts that are scripted responses vs building a complex AI code.  Also, once done right, modularity makes it possible to reapply it elsewhere or sell it for profits.

Also, the PS3's processors are pocket calculators with tiny hidden monkies inside these days.  It's commonly known that their cell processors are a pain in the behind to use efficiently.  Nevermind the simple lack of raw horsepower relative to anything modern.

I know I'm opening a can of worms with that comment and someone will say "But look at how it runs modern games so well, you ***!"  To head that thought off at the pass consider how much money is at stake in the console market versus the PC gaming market and you'll see that modern games target current generation consoles with system requirements to allow greater sales.  Developers have little to no economical incentive to make use of modern PC hardware that has long since marched forward.

Arga wrote:

and the more complex the AI is, the harder it is to fix bugs, which are more prevalent

That's true for any code.  More lines = more complexity = more stupid bugs & unintended effects.  That's no reason not to bother writing it if budget constraints permit it to be so.

Winter Solstice wrote:

anyone who's ever played rising force online might attest to the dumbness of their AI

Speaking of idiot AI...Star Wars: Battlefront stands out in my mind as a massive failure.  Let's take an already stupid Battlefield 1942 AI and change the weapon/vehicle dynamics, add difficult (for the existing AI) terrain, and then do nothing to make the bots more aware of their own capabilities.

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131

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

The point I was getting at is PVP is better than AI will ever be, because players can be brillent and stupid at the same time.

PVE games use a lot of internal resources, programming time, making content that is balanced and entertaining for solo players.

PVP games typically spend resources balancing classes which usually have very complex skill trees and skill-skill interactions to make them interesting.

A small indy corp just doesn't have the WoW like resources to do both.

A compromise is adding player driven solo content, like artifact scanning.

The call for PVE is also due to the low numbers, making PVP harder to find. A slow constant development of PVE is what the game needs, not trying to change it to a PVE game because of low server pop.

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Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Arga wrote:

The call for PVE is also due to the low numbers, making PVP harder to find. A slow constant development of PVE is what the game needs, not trying to change it to a PVE game because of low server pop.

Of course. In the end it's about building and destroying sandcastles. In Perpetuum more literally than other sandboxes, apparently yarr

This is always an interesting read (something to hold against the light after each patch):

http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Media:Manifesto

133 (edited by Grim Faust 2011-08-22 20:25:41)

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

I think the problem that most people are looking at is that of content being synonymous with PvE, which it isn't. Content can pertain to really any aspect of the game and it's those facets that PO seems to lack right now. The only difference in character progression in PO from day 1 to somewhere down the road is basically what tier of gear and how heavy a bot you can roll. There's not very many things to achieve beyond that basic principal of what tier you're packing. For a PvP centric game as people put it, the goals to progress in are highly involved in a predefined path that you don't get to choose. Sure you can go cap a beta OP, but for what? So you're closer to noralgis and epi so that you can get those bots quicker? What happens when you've sat on beta for a while, what do you hope to achieve aside a surplus of t4? There's not a lot to really put forth as a tangible goal within PO's parameters. You can see all there is to see fairly quickly and it's that context that burns people out quickly.

Sure you can PvP and I'd like to think that's about the only fun thing to do really. But it's about all we're offered in terms of lasting content. There's no point to the wars in PO aside the ego's. I really don't think anyone here is fighting aside to womp their mouthy adversaries. Not even all the beta land is taken, there's no point to having it, which lends itself to showing that owning beta land is quite unimportant. You can launch ops from alpha just as easily from beta, the only difference is how close you are to more lucrative mining and npc's, which would seem like a moot point to PvPer's, but ironically is not. Right now the flow of the game seems to be a perpetual loop, the PvE aspect fuels the PvP by providing the tech and bots. You go out and blow each other up. Then you turn back to PvE to farm more to go blow each other up again. While it can be fun, where's the actual purpose? When's the last time someone lost territory to a land grab? Where's the politics? Everyone basically sits around and farms while they're not pvp'ing. When they do PvP it's typically a roam that serves no purpose other than to just blow up the enemy. There's no greater loss other than pride, which in turn just makes the ego's flare and more fights happen. Which again is fun for most, but what's the point.

The game really needs some more infrastructure. We need reasons to go to war other than to just go shoot *** because we're tired of PvE content/farming. ( which happens fairly quick with how little depth there is in the current content )

Take the long way around back to square one
Today we're just outlaws out on the run

134 (edited by AeonThePiglet 2011-08-22 20:33:58)

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Winter Solstice wrote:

anyone who's ever played rising force online might attest to the dumbness of their AI wink  but the internals are actually pretty complex.  Setting all of their triggers for the dev is the bugger. 

Static AI is easier in the sense of stand in your spot and then react, don't necessarily act independentently.  Wont go into their full stats but its like...

Radius in which you spawn from your origin point.
Speed you walk when "idle", speed you walk in "agro" mode (move, WarMove)
Speed (im ms + or - some randomosity) at which you will agress an opponent (opponents are set via player flags per race, or flagged against all player races)
Will you help a fellow monster?
Will you call for help if you need it?
At what points are you "in trouble"? (based on hitpoints, ranges from "Goodtookay, okaytobad, badtoworse, wierd flags like that)
What will you cast/do to your primary target at each point at what percentage?
What will you cat/do to ANY opponent if they do any of the following (skills defined at 4 letter/number combos)
What will you SAY at certain points (helping a 'friend'? BadToWorse? A curse spell cast on you? Randomly during the fight? When you use a certain skill?)
... then plus your base stats (an F-ton of those too, as complex as the player, which doesn't even look so complex from the client UI).

I wanted to learn to program AI's in an existing system, did so...  and had to walk away burned out until I can finally crawl back weeping.  smile  They're a pain wink  Specially when you need like 300 individual special complex ones in a month.  A programmers' head (dev-y types) can wrap around them easy enough but the mroe comlpex they are.. and even those are simple, the less of them you can have active on a map... (processing power serverside)...

Oh gawd you were scripting weren't you. If you're using a classless scripting language you are in for a world of hurt. Blah blah blah includes; screw that, I'd rather create a class that handles the general case and set up constructors to initialize with defaults, then just generate that in each instance of the NPC. 

Problem solved and probably how problem is dealt with here. I don't want to hear about your effing structs you C freaks, it's not a class so stfu. 

The annoying part is teaching the AI to use a map. Some games do that by dynamically judging terrain and calculating los for a range of current and potential positions (this is where  stuff like "rays" is going to get tossed around, you do not want to know and it is not easy to implement) -- the faster things are changing position, the more expensive this gets, but it's never cheap in a real time game.

The other option is static scripting for locations, which is functionally impossible in an open environment like Perp's where the devs cannot predict the position of the player by map layout (but it's also generally a lot cheaper). It works great in games where you've got lots of static cover and a single entry point, but the greater the range of potential entry points the less utility this method will provide.

So the optimal solution for a dev that A) does not have a lot of time/cash to throw at the solution B) needs a cheap solution processor wise and C) is generally viable is ignoring terrain except when it comes between the NPC and the human, at which point the NPC calculates a shortest path to "remove" the obstacle and then goes back to the headlong charge (until a script gets triggered by a state change).

Which really brings you to the nut of the problem. The vast majority of player perceptions about the AI have to do with how well it navigates a given map, uses cover and works with its amigos. MMO AI will never (at least, never in a reasonable time frame) do any of those three things because they all depend on the map and require extensive calculation or a reduction in potential player entry points to PVE areas.

What the devs CAN do is create spawns built to look like a player gang. So high speed assaults with tackle and short range guns, long range mechs with RR support, etc etc. They sort of have this with roaming spawns. The other thing they can do is use a swarm model (note: a real swarm uses hordes of agents to generate a single solution, this is more of an overlord model, whatevskies) instead of a per bot script. So, a single script generates a solution that gets mild randomization when applies to each bot. That's create a perception that the bots are FFing players and moving (mostly) as a unit, with some of them not following primary or separating from the group. It'd also help if bots checked to switch targets if (enemySpeed > ownSpeed && enemyRange > ownRange && !(tackle == true)). Right now I build threat while range tanking against a hauler spawn, bugger off at high speed and then our green bots roll up with compacts and annihilate. 

The gist of it is that you won't get what you want wrt smarter bots and cover, but a couple things could be done to make the situation more entertaining.

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Grim, as for your point -- I think that's the ultimate (philsophical?) crux of ANY game - replayability.

I play EQ from level 1 to 85 and what have I achieved?  I can hit harder and wear better gear.  There are a few other bits; I can access dungeons others can't (but after the first few times, so what), I can buy things other people can't (they're already putting in an energy crystal system here so that's covered).  And that flat about it.  Then I sit and stare at the water in the harbor and... eventually unsub.

This is one of those moments when I have to say that, on some levels, the jaded a-hole types are right when they keep throwing in a new "shiny" because, as a quick-fix, it heals the player-bored faster than fixing the old shinies and making them perfect. (relying too much on new shinies and not fixing the old stuff is its own disaster, there's a balance in there, somewhere).

The answer as to what kept me capped and still playing wasn't 100% game content, because 100% game content couldn't keep me.  Community in an MMO is essential - it is its own 'replayability' factor, albeit one uncontrollable by the programmers (unless they hire "thought leaders in the industry", apparently).

Aeon - Well we were sort of stuck with scripting.  that's what happens when you "yar har fiddle-dee-dee" someone else's game engine and don't write your own - you need to work in their skeleton.

(Even worse, without their own devtools, so you're reverse engineering your own, which tend to be clunkier unless you get lucky; you're spending hours staring at a tiny .DAT file that basically says "6 monsters, each respawns every 10 minutes" in English - but that isn't really what it MEANS once the engine, this basic sheer black monolith of game engine saying, "Haha I will misunderstand everything you try to tell me." translates it as once it ties of to the 4-5 other files you also edited vs. the original DEVs version (why wont my death timers run right?!?!!)  Cracking it apart, well, you're basically hacking it, in the most literal of terms.  Getting it right is this sort of blackops feather in your cap.)

So yeh, you take the stupid AI and you make it APPEAR intelligent.  It's all "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" and if you manage to do it right, you're more than a programmer, you're an artist.  (Which is, tbh, why I think all programmers need to be both.)(

----
I play MMOs. I need a signature which is deep, thought provoking, and devours bandwidth with the voracity of rabid weasels. It is also, by nature, vaguely sad with a tinge of my obvious internal, unfathomable loneliness. Like this, sad  , but at 1.3megs packed into 2 by 6 inches. ANIMATED.

136 (edited by Paragon 2011-08-23 03:36:58)

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

There has got to be some simple(r) stuff you could do prior to any of the bots even spawning. Like what Aeon mentioned about giving the groups a more tactical squad composition. You could watch player traffic maybe, and have indies only spawn in low traffic spots (so they stop spawning there if they become a farm target) and maybe some attack spawns target high traffic areas (sometimes you'll need to shake them off at the terminal or on the highway).

I don't even really have a problem with how the AI actually fights. The little bots seem un-terrible at knowing their role and keeping distance or finding cover. I dislike that their tendency to just stand around in groups waiting to die screams "I'm a ***!" and tears apart anything the lore claims about their advanced society or whatever. Of course, if players would group up as predictably, we could get some serious pew going...

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Yeah I think most people would be happier if robots were moving about near some sort of robo-facility doing things that seem rational.

Problem is, what the heck do robots do in their spare time? Do they dream of electric sheep?

138

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

If they are shepard robots they do.

respawning defies any kind of explaination, but's a required game mechanic or the world would be empty quickly.

same supsension of disbelief for why they are there in the first place.

I've done this though exercise while working on another project. with suspended disbelief, we know it doesn't make sense but its ok because it doesn't have to, trying to make it persistant you end up creating a scenerio where it starts to feel forced. forced reasons to have npcs make worse game play then suspended disbelief.

139 (edited by Winter Solstice 2011-08-23 23:51:31)

Re: PO Needs new players, here's how to keep me...

Respawning makes logical immersion sense to me - they poof in with a very similar teleport sound.

Obviously, we're on a .. how big speck of an entire planet?

Of what size?

With what landmasses?

Still not exposed to what Nian tech?  Maybe they have those tactical teleport modules that we want sooooo bad.  (hence the planned escalations - one way teleport beams). 

Yeh they're not ALL guarding something, but otherwise every  landmass would be covered with SOMETHINGS.  But it is, really.  Plants, orefields, highways, tactical ground, buildings that have no player purpose.  The 'invading' bots on a certain color island (if my recall is correct) seem to *not* be at those locations, the 'residents' seem to be at those locations.

the only suspension of disbelief is the same supension of disbelief you have to have when you walk into any PvE game that lets you play "good" and "evil".  Why are these gnolls just standing here instead of charging the gates of Antonica?  ..ohrite.  nm.

wink

----
I play MMOs. I need a signature which is deep, thought provoking, and devours bandwidth with the voracity of rabid weasels. It is also, by nature, vaguely sad with a tinge of my obvious internal, unfathomable loneliness. Like this, sad  , but at 1.3megs packed into 2 by 6 inches. ANIMATED.