226 (edited by Cassius 2014-03-20 18:50:31)

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

So EP resets ... I have 5 accounts. One dedicated miner and a hybrid miner/production.

Secure a mining area, let's say a Gamma ....
Respec  all my characters to max miners
Strip mine in relative safety for a few weeks until minerals are in the billion
Respec into Scarab Mk2 bots, haul all the *** to production facilities
Respec into Production, mass produce enough mods to supply my combat needs for a year (and I lose a lot of bots) or enough mods to flood the fragile market and skew it
Respec into combat and  never have to mine again.

Alternatively, let's say a corp like -77- fields a great mix of Ewar and combats while my corp is heavies 24/7 ...
Respec into ewars, negate advantage other corp had.

FOTM doesn't have to mean a particular OP bot/fit. People put some thought into their skill paths and trained and trained and trained to get their character to do their thing ... Unlimited EP resets throw that all away.

Maybe 5 accounts switched to mining is no big deal, but what about 20, or on a corp level, 50.
50 EP resets brings in lots of cash for AC, but completely knock out of balance what those accounts could normally be used for. It be kinda like every time a fictional defunct corp like See Eyre had corp mining ops they gave players maxxed mining accounts to mine minerals, getting maximum bang for their buck. Hypothetically of course.

Edit: changed to a fictional defunct Scottish corp.

227 (edited by Gremrod 2014-03-20 18:17:33)

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Cassius wrote:

So EP resets ... I have 5 accounts. One dedicated miner and a hybrid miner/production.

Secure a mining area, let's say a Gamma ....
Respec  all my characters to max miners
Strip mine in relative safety for a few weeks until minerals are in the billion
Respec into Scarab Mk2 bots, haul all the *** to production facilities
Respec into Production, mass produce enough mods to supply my combat needs for a year (and I lose a lot of bots) or enough mods to flood the fragile market and skew it
Respec into combat and  never have to mine again.

Alternatively, let's say a corp like -77- fields a great mix of Ewar and combats while my corp is heavies 24/7 ...
Respec into ewars, negate advantage other corp had.

FOTM doesn't have to mean a particular OP bot/fit. People put some thought into their skill paths and trained and trained and trained to get their character to do their thing ... Unlimited EP resets throw that all away.

Maybe 5 accounts switched to mining is no big deal, but what about 20, or on a corp level, 50.
50 EP resets brings in lots of cash for AC, but completely knock out of balance what those accounts could normally be used for. It be kinda like every time a defunct corp like CIR had corp mining ops they gave players maxxed mining accounts to mine minerals, getting maximum bang for their buck. Hypothetically of course.


Call me crazy if you want, but I am still not concerned after reading the above.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

228 (edited by Gunner 2014-03-20 18:20:34)

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Cassius,

I dont think its going to be like 2$, more like 20$+++

What you propose is not realistic.


It is a valid concern though, in theory.  The costs should be preventative.




(( So, still have a once per three months restriction ))




Also, on a political note.  Unless you guys can pay to become us IRL, you will still get stomped no matter what you spec.   tongue

229 (edited by Cassius 2014-03-20 18:48:46)

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Gunner, you are probably right on both accounts. I will happily trash talk you in vicinity and corp dialogue, but I have respect for your corp's PvP skills.

And yes, my examples are extreme. But possible. If another game not even in Alpha can sell out on $15 000 US pledge packages that give you the game and a bunch of ships, and the game is not out for another year, anything is possible.

The only thing I am really comfortable with this game selling is the EP boost, since it simply replaces my previously monthly cost with a new similar one.

230 (edited by Vroom 2014-03-20 18:50:39)

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Cassius wrote:

So EP resets ... I have 5 accounts. One dedicated miner and a hybrid miner/production.

Secure a mining area, let's say a Gamma ....
Respec  all my characters to max miners
Strip mine in relative safety for a few weeks until minerals are in the billion
Respec into Scarab Mk2 bots, haul all the *** to production facilities
Respec into Production, mass produce enough mods to supply my combat needs for a year (and I lose a lot of bots) or enough mods to flood the fragile market and skew it
Respec into combat and  never have to mine again.

Alternatively, let's say a corp like -77- fields a great mix of Ewar and combats while my corp is heavies 24/7 ...
Respec into ewars, negate advantage other corp had.

FOTM doesn't have to mean a particular OP bot/fit. People put some thought into their skill paths and trained and trained and trained to get their character to do their thing ... Unlimited EP resets throw that all away.

Maybe 5 accounts switched to mining is no big deal, but what about 20, or on a corp level, 50.
50 EP resets brings in lots of cash for AC, but completely knock out of balance what those accounts could normally be used for. It be kinda like every time a defunct corp like CIR had corp mining ops they gave players maxxed mining accounts to mine minerals, getting maximum bang for their buck. Hypothetically of course.

I'm cool with you spending $200 to do that.  At $10 a respect.

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

It must hurt when inactive corps pop in every 2-3 months and curbstomp you back into your place.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Vroom wrote:
Cassius wrote:

So EP resets ... I have 5 accounts. One dedicated miner and a hybrid miner/production.

Secure a mining area, let's say a Gamma ....
Respec  all my characters to max miners
Strip mine in relative safety for a few weeks until minerals are in the billion
Respec into Scarab Mk2 bots, haul all the *** to production facilities
Respec into Production, mass produce enough mods to supply my combat needs for a year (and I lose a lot of bots) or enough mods to flood the fragile market and skew it
Respec into combat and  never have to mine again.

Alternatively, let's say a corp like -77- fields a great mix of Ewar and combats while my corp is heavies 24/7 ...
Respec into ewars, negate advantage other corp had.

FOTM doesn't have to mean a particular OP bot/fit. People put some thought into their skill paths and trained and trained and trained to get their character to do their thing ... Unlimited EP resets throw that all away.

Maybe 5 accounts switched to mining is no big deal, but what about 20, or on a corp level, 50.
50 EP resets brings in lots of cash for AC, but completely knock out of balance what those accounts could normally be used for. It be kinda like every time a defunct corp like CIR had corp mining ops they gave players maxxed mining accounts to mine minerals, getting maximum bang for their buck. Hypothetically of course.

I'm cool with you spending $200 to do that.  At $10 a respect.

Let's say I currently spend $600 per year on 5 accounts, and EP resets cost $20 per shot.
I use 4 per character to accomplish what I proposed above. I spend $400.
For the rest of the year I accumulate EP normally for free.

Net result. I save $200 per year, and everything I do I do it with maximum efficiency. And I end up with 3 times the stuff I would be capable if producing with non reset accounts.

This is a deterrent how?

233

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Cassius wrote:
Vroom wrote:
Cassius wrote:

So EP resets ... I have 5 accounts. One dedicated miner and a hybrid miner/production.

Secure a mining area, let's say a Gamma ....
Respec  all my characters to max miners
Strip mine in relative safety for a few weeks until minerals are in the billion
Respec into Scarab Mk2 bots, haul all the *** to production facilities
Respec into Production, mass produce enough mods to supply my combat needs for a year (and I lose a lot of bots) or enough mods to flood the fragile market and skew it
Respec into combat and  never have to mine again.

Alternatively, let's say a corp like -77- fields a great mix of Ewar and combats while my corp is heavies 24/7 ...
Respec into ewars, negate advantage other corp had.

FOTM doesn't have to mean a particular OP bot/fit. People put some thought into their skill paths and trained and trained and trained to get their character to do their thing ... Unlimited EP resets throw that all away.

Maybe 5 accounts switched to mining is no big deal, but what about 20, or on a corp level, 50.
50 EP resets brings in lots of cash for AC, but completely knock out of balance what those accounts could normally be used for. It be kinda like every time a defunct corp like CIR had corp mining ops they gave players maxxed mining accounts to mine minerals, getting maximum bang for their buck. Hypothetically of course.

I'm cool with you spending $200 to do that.  At $10 a respect.

Let's say I currently spend $600 per year on 5 accounts, and EP resets cost $20 per shot.
I use 4 per character to accomplish what I proposed above. I spend $400.
For the rest of the year I accumulate EP normally for free.

Net result. I save $200 per year, and everything I do I do it with maximum efficiency. And I end up with 3 times the stuff I would be capable if producing with non reset accounts.

This is a deterrent how?

How does this compare to players who have multiple accounts since launch with large pools of EP.  The bad things about EP resets used to be you LOSE all your reputation.  I sincerely think you are going OMFG must throw cash to win. 

I am actually cool with that Cassius, I for one am tired of the SAME Old SAME Old pvp scene.  We all know what everyone can pilot potentially and where they are skill point wise.  The only one that's still a mystery to me is yeastmodebuns, I'm not sure if he pilots a tyrannos or a gargoyle or a cam.  This could add a little bit of mystery. 

Cassius who cares about your 5 maxxed EP accounts, I've personally seen 20 Jita T1 Termis miners.  Dem *** get *** done.  Now that its free to play its more going to be about who has the PC to run these accounts.

234 (edited by Celebro 2014-03-20 19:29:51)

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Ok ,here is and idea:

When you get a reset all your EP changes to R.E.P this will be a separate pool from your normal EP.

REP cannot be used but they convert to EP overtime depending on how much EP you have reset or downgraded so the rate it is converted back to EP around 60k per day for 1 million EP reset you will get the reseted EP in about 2 weeks, this is to aim at a 2 week cooldown where you can't use your character to the best of its ability.

The draw back will make you plan ahead, no EP is lost and Resets will not need to be very expensive.

RIP PERPETUUM

235

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

The simple solution is charge $10 and collect Jew Gold.

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Based on your feedback and after some internal discussion, we have decided to not offer EP resets for now.

The cost of the extension downgrade feature is proportional to the refunded EP, so we'll see how people will use that. A separate EP reset may not even be needed besides that.

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

DEV Zoom wrote:

Based on your feedback and after some internal discussion, we have decided to not offer EP resets for now.

The cost of the extension downgrade feature is proportional to the refunded EP, so we'll see how people will use that. A separate EP reset may not even be needed besides that.

While I am not against EP resets I do think this is a good way to test it all out.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

DEV Zoom wrote:

Based on your feedback and after some internal discussion, we have decided to not offer EP resets for now.

The cost of the extension downgrade feature is proportional to the refunded EP, so we'll see how people will use that. A separate EP reset may not even be needed besides that.


You're still offering EP resets if I can downgrade all extensions so what is the point?

I can see that the more EP your downgrade the higher the costs, but what ball park pricing are you considering?

RIP PERPETUUM

239 (edited by SGT subzero 2014-03-20 20:20:24)

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

DEV Zoom wrote:

Based on your feedback and after some internal discussion, we have decided to not offer EP resets for now.

The cost of the extension downgrade feature is proportional to the refunded EP, so we'll see how people will use that. A separate EP reset may not even be needed besides that.

I think this is a wise decision. Even with several low impact anti-Fit-of-the-month solutions have been proposed to lessen the extreme of a repeating full resets. Be it trough slower EP accumulation afterwards or penalty pools that release their EP over time.

One thing that is important to notice is that even after a full resets there will be a lot of overlapping extensions. This makes it better/user friendlier to morph then to reset in most situations. Which means it is better to expand on the downgrade feature and develop an extension morph interface then offer a blunt reset in all situations. THis path also adds a control point to limit how much EP can be unclaimed if that becomes an issue.

So yeah, for now, this is the overall best decision to make!

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

I am stumbled by the thought that we had EP resets and we´ve seen what damage it did to the game, accordingly it was abandoned by the DEV´s again. This isn´t debatable, as it is a fact. Openly known I am totally against it after a time of 2-3 month of character creation.

On the other sideI do agree with, that DEV´s need to find a source of income. To balance this, might be a hard bridge to build. Yet any free reset or "10€"  reset is equal to free and does not present a hurdle. At least for the working community, I would think.

Zoom´s approach I feel like is the best so far, with a reset cost of 30%. It will not hurt a new player EP wise that much, to compensate a wrong turn. A scalable approach is not practicable, as it only needs one free or cheap reset for a mass "color of the month" reset and the damage is done.

With a 30% cost, I definitely think twice,  about resetting, yet in return it allows me to turn my "minning" path to a damage path, which would if a desired choice, I will gladly spend 30% EP´s.

Problem still is, there is still not an income generated for the DEV´s, whereas the solution is practicable balance wise, it needs a € sink. A combination of both might be a solution, such as 30% EP Loss and a 5€. 

As with Grems argument, that other games have it as well and it didn´t do them any bad. I have to agree to disagree, on the term, that you a right, it is a good source of income in many games, yet, on other games you have a different basis. I might not have an overall picture of the whole game spectrum, but on all games I know of, you reset your skill points in a class path, but you do not change the entire class.

Secondly those games are theme parks and not persistent sand boxed ones. But like said, I might be missing games here, which I don´t know of, where in a persistent sandbox you can reset your complete class or even all skill points.  - Just a thought.

Remedy Inc. recruiting. Schliess dich uns an. Bewerbung und Guides unter: www.remedy-inc.de
#Bad Robot
#RSI Star Citizen: REMEDY

241 (edited by MoBIoS 2014-03-20 20:28:58)

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

oh overlaped post... while writing. hmm

DEV Zoom wrote:

Based on your feedback and after some internal discussion, we have decided to not offer EP resets for now.

The cost of the extension downgrade feature is proportional to the refunded EP, so we'll see how people will use that. A separate EP reset may not even be needed besides that.

seems practicable

Remedy Inc. recruiting. Schliess dich uns an. Bewerbung und Guides unter: www.remedy-inc.de
#Bad Robot
#RSI Star Citizen: REMEDY

242 (edited by SGT subzero 2014-03-20 22:21:34)

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

MoBIoS wrote:

I am stumbled by the thought that we had EP resets and we´ve seen what damage it did to the game, accordingly it was abandoned by the DEV´s again. This isn´t debatable, as it is a fact. Openly known I am totally against it after a time of 2-3 month of character creation.

On the other sideI do agree with, that DEV´s need to find a source of income. To balance this, might be a hard bridge to build. Yet any free reset or "10€"  reset is equal to free and does not present a hurdle. At least for the working community, I would think.

Zoom´s approach I feel like is the best so far, with a reset cost of 30%. It will not hurt a new player EP wise that much, to compensate a wrong turn. A scalable approach is not practicable, as it only needs one free or cheap reset for a mass "color of the month" reset and the damage is done.

With a 30% cost, I definitely think twice,  about resetting, yet in return it allows me to turn my "minning" path to a damage path, which would if a desired choice, I will gladly spend 30% EP´s.

Problem still is, there is still not an income generated for the DEV´s, whereas the solution is practicable balance wise, it needs a € sink. A combination of both might be a solution, such as 30% EP Loss and a 5€. 

As with Grems argument, that other games have it as well and it didn´t do them any bad. I have to agree to disagree, on the term, that you a right, it is a good source of income in many games, yet, on other games you have a different basis. I might not have an overall picture of the whole game spectrum, but on all games I know of, you reset your skill points in a class path, but you do not change the entire class.

Secondly those games are theme parks and not persistent sand boxed ones. But like said, I might be missing games here, which I don´t know of, where in a persistent sandbox you can reset your complete class or even all skill points.  - Just a thought.

A simple solution is to limit how much EP can be moved over time. With each change costing money and such a limit, the impact it can make will be moderate. There will be next to no problems. Permanently axing already build up EP is a no go....especially for new players. It pushes them away!

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Unfortunalty my post overlapped, Zoom´s comment. I find Zooms approach a good way to bridge the gap between correcting misplaced EP´s and and the ability to create an income.

Remedy Inc. recruiting. Schliess dich uns an. Bewerbung und Guides unter: www.remedy-inc.de
#Bad Robot
#RSI Star Citizen: REMEDY

244 (edited by Jadallah Ratchett 2014-03-21 16:15:20)

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

I am some what (very) newb, returning though. I understand the fears of respec abuse, I am not a fan of unlimited respecs at all ever. That being said I wouldn't argue about 1 for this Acct. big_smile poor girl needs help.

245 (edited by Xadhoom 2014-03-21 18:46:30)

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Lets all give a warm welcome to the Perpetuum Credits farmers.

I know I am talking out my ***, but it is something to think about when doing a micro transaction market.

2nd Top Killer 2012
02: 061 -- 353 -- 292 : Xadhoom


"Annihilator no fix for crashes when fighting burial/merkle/xadhoom ?"

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Learn to counter , and you should have no issue with enemies re-specing' .

Also research downgrades would be Nice!

RIP PERPETUUM

247

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Research downgrades? Hell no. Why don't you ask then 100% recycling back to minerals? Or an ability to cancel any trade deal? Or replay if you died suddenly? Maybe the robot should appear at terminal damaged but alive once it got blowed up? How about an ability ti mine resources back? Resurrect an NPC and give him back a loot? Ability to recover used ammo from corpses and terrain? And what's with the money-back if you didn't entertained by playing this game? Or the ability to get used ICE back? Maybe pack some T4 back to those nice shiney presents? Or cancel the mondays? Or get a switch that turning Ville on/off? Or lag-o-generator? Or pause mode? Or time shift?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

248

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Line! You're a genius! We need pause mode! big_smile Drink coffee, smoke a cigarette during hard battle. smile

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Well the good thing on respecs is people who did a mistake or got quite bored of their current way their char is built can get a second chance. The bad thing is it can get abused. I think there is a solution for both to work:

Permit each account buy 1 respec per 6 months - this way it cant abused and will give some people a second chance to change their gameplay or correct their errors of the past

Re: New devblog: The end of subscriptions, the start of something new

Is Hunter your flatmate?

Seriously though, the changes to race and bots and other changes for the last three years can cause people to get stuck with something that they really shouldnt be stuck with.

Making some changes is a positive thing.

Respecking before every op is not.




Respec is cost prohibitive or should be.  That means "too expensive to do more than once a year or two."





Line wrote:

Research downgrades? Hell no. Why don't you ask then 100% recycling back to minerals? Or an ability to cancel any trade deal? Or replay if you died suddenly? Maybe the robot should appear at terminal damaged but alive once it got blowed up? How about an ability ti mine resources back? Resurrect an NPC and give him back a loot? Ability to recover used ammo from corpses and terrain? And what's with the money-back if you didn't entertained by playing this game? Or the ability to get used ICE back? Maybe pack some T4 back to those nice shiney presents? Or cancel the mondays? Or get a switch that turning Ville on/off? Or lag-o-generator? Or pause mode? Or time shift?