101 Reply by Aaron Sool (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-11 17:31:40)

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Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:

If you could trade NIC for Ep in a very restrictive let say only purchasing 10k EP per week which adds to your additional  10k odd EP per week you already get, I am willing to accept that.Only if only you can TRADE the available EP pool ingame ,no way to magically make EP out of thin air from the Perpetuum store.

Well that's a good suggestion as well. I apploud you for it. But I personally think this would benefit old timers more then new players, and only increase the GAP. What I don't want is for the rich to get richer so to speak. I rather want more of a Robin Hood-kinda thing. The rich give to the poor/nOObs. And that would be for vets to greenlight new peeps to get more EP early on then what they got as a nOObs, just for the greater good of the game. So far my favorite suggestion is the one from Inda where new players would get 3 EP instead of 1 up to 500k etc. But any system that would help us keep new players easier. I'm all for it.

102 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2014-01-11 17:36:41)

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Re: The GAP...

Rex Amelius wrote:
Celebro wrote:

If you could trade NIC for Ep in a very restrictive let say only purchasing 10k EP per week which adds to your additional  10k odd EP per week you already get, I am willing to accept that.Only if only you can TRADE the available EP pool ingame ,no way to magically make EP out of thin air from the Perpetuum store.

Interesting idea. However, then those rich guys could purchase 10 accounts and funnel all the EP into one!

Pay2win fuuu

What if a percentage gets lost after each trade? Also trials are not allowed and all EP accumulated on trails are locked.

Still at maximum you are getting 2EP/min if you can manage a trade, even if you trade with alts your EP on alts are gimped.

RIP PERPETUUM
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Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:
Rex Amelius wrote:
Celebro wrote:

If you could trade NIC for Ep in a very restrictive let say only purchasing 10k EP per week which adds to your additional  10k odd EP per week you already get, I am willing to accept that.Only if only you can TRADE the available EP pool ingame ,no way to magically make EP out of thin air from the Perpetuum store.

Interesting idea. However, then those rich guys could purchase 10 accounts and funnel all the EP into one!

Pay2win fuuu

What if a percentage gets lost after each trade? Also trials are not allowed and all EP accumulated on trails are locked.

Still at maximum you are getting 2EP/min if you can manage a trade, even if you trade with alts your EP on alts are gimped.

I'm not directly opposed to your idea, or any EP idea. I'm open on the issue.

But I'm still not convinced the EP system is flawed or that it is a PROBLEM. These forums are riddled with SOLUTION debates long before PROBLEMS are clearly identified.

More likely this is simply another Population issue. But I'm listening...

Sparking to other games
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Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:
Rex Amelius wrote:
Celebro wrote:

If you could trade NIC for Ep in a very restrictive let say only purchasing 10k EP per week which adds to your additional  10k odd EP per week you already get, I am willing to accept that.Only if only you can TRADE the available EP pool ingame ,no way to magically make EP out of thin air from the Perpetuum store.

Interesting idea. However, then those rich guys could purchase 10 accounts and funnel all the EP into one!

Pay2win fuuu

What if a percentage gets lost after each trade? Also trials are not allowed and all EP accumulated on trails are locked.

Still at maximum you are getting 2EP/min if you can manage a trade, even if you trade with alts your EP on alts are gimped.

I still think this would only benefit the rich players=old timers, and do nothing bout the actuall GAP-issue. Maybe if the award is greater the less EP you have etc. Then it could work.

105 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2014-01-11 18:04:54)

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Re: The GAP...

Aaron Sool wrote:
Celebro wrote:
Rex Amelius wrote:

Interesting idea. However, then those rich guys could purchase 10 accounts and funnel all the EP into one!

Pay2win fuuu

What if a percentage gets lost after each trade? Also trials are not allowed and all EP accumulated on trails are locked.

Still at maximum you are getting 2EP/min if you can manage a trade, even if you trade with alts your EP on alts are gimped.

I still think this would only benefit the rich players=old timers, and do nothing bout the actuall GAP-issue. Maybe if the award is greater the less EP you have etc. Then it could work.

It's a small option to grind some extra EP , that's more beneficial for new players as old timers never had this option for 3 years!. I don't know what extra advantage player wants. Shall I give them my account too?

I agree with Rex, EP is not flawed it works well, just adding more options for the sandbox, bear in mind lvl 10 is the limit so vets might be inclined to sell EP for NIC and live the lazy life. I dunno what you mean, rich giving to the poor? I thought this was a skill issue and I have addressed it somehow, but new players still need to do the work of catching up.


edit: This system will let the player decide on price and ICE is pay to win, multiple accounts is pay to win anyways nothing new here.

RIP PERPETUUM
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Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:
Aaron Sool wrote:
Celebro wrote:

What if a percentage gets lost after each trade? Also trials are not allowed and all EP accumulated on trails are locked.

Still at maximum you are getting 2EP/min if you can manage a trade, even if you trade with alts your EP on alts are gimped.

I still think this would only benefit the rich players=old timers, and do nothing bout the actuall GAP-issue. Maybe if the award is greater the less EP you have etc. Then it could work.

It's a small option to grind some extra EP , that's more beneficial for new players as old timers never had this option for 3 years!. I don't know what extra advantage player wants. Shall I give them my account too?

I agree with Rex, EP is not flawed it works well, just adding more options for the sandbox, bear in mind lvl 10 is the limit so vets might be inclined to sell EP for NIC and live the lazy life. I dunno what you mean, rich giving to the poor? I thought this was a skill issue and I have addressed it somehow, but new players still need to do the work of catching up.


edit: This system will let the player decide on price and ICE is pay to win, multiple accounts is pay to win anyways nothing new here.

I think I missunderstood your suggestion. You mean that our 200-ish vets, could sell some their EP for NIC? If that's the case they wouldn't. Cause they all sit on a big chunk of NIC already. And noone would sell their EP for NIC. Maybe if I had a maxed out char I could sell some, but I don't think any1 is there, or even close. Or am I still missunderstanding your suggestion?

*A tip would be to not drink beer while reading all this...* tongue

107 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2014-01-11 18:18:17)

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Re: The GAP...

Aaron Sool wrote:
Celebro wrote:
Aaron Sool wrote:

I still think this would only benefit the rich players=old timers, and do nothing bout the actuall GAP-issue. Maybe if the award is greater the less EP you have etc. Then it could work.

It's a small option to grind some extra EP , that's more beneficial for new players as old timers never had this option for 3 years!. I don't know what extra advantage player wants. Shall I give them my account too?

I agree with Rex, EP is not flawed it works well, just adding more options for the sandbox, bear in mind lvl 10 is the limit so vets might be inclined to sell EP for NIC and live the lazy life. I dunno what you mean, rich giving to the poor? I thought this was a skill issue and I have addressed it somehow, but new players still need to do the work of catching up.


edit: This system will let the player decide on price and ICE is pay to win, multiple accounts is pay to win anyways nothing new here.

I think I missunderstood your suggestion. You mean that our 200-ish vets, could sell some their EP for NIC? If that's the case they wouldn't. Cause they all sit on a big chunk of NIC already. And noone would sell their EP for NIC. Maybe if I had a maxed out char I could sell some, but I don't think any1 is there, or even close. Or am I still missunderstanding your suggestion?

*A tip would be to not drink beer while reading all this...* tongue

In Eve players sell characters all the time for ISK. Whats the difference? I think some will, when you have NIC you want more specially Vets to build their sandcastles and are tired of the grind.

RIP PERPETUUM

108 Reply by Aaron Sool (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-11 18:39:39)

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Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:
Aaron Sool wrote:
Celebro wrote:

It's a small option to grind some extra EP , that's more beneficial for new players as old timers never had this option for 3 years!. I don't know what extra advantage player wants. Shall I give them my account too?

I agree with Rex, EP is not flawed it works well, just adding more options for the sandbox, bear in mind lvl 10 is the limit so vets might be inclined to sell EP for NIC and live the lazy life. I dunno what you mean, rich giving to the poor? I thought this was a skill issue and I have addressed it somehow, but new players still need to do the work of catching up.


edit: This system will let the player decide on price and ICE is pay to win, multiple accounts is pay to win anyways nothing new here.

I think I missunderstood your suggestion. You mean that our 200-ish vets, could sell some their EP for NIC? If that's the case they wouldn't. Cause they all sit on a big chunk of NIC already. And noone would sell their EP for NIC. Maybe if I had a maxed out char I could sell some, but I don't think any1 is there, or even close. Or am I still missunderstanding your suggestion?

*A tip would be to not drink beer while reading all this...* tongue

In Eve players sell characters all the time for ISK. Whats the difference? I think some will, when you have NIC you want more specially Vets to build their sandcastles and are tired of the grind.

It works in EVE cause they have 600k population. At this stage something like this wouldn't work for Perp. At least I don't think so. We have maybe 200 vets here to EVEs 200k vets. tongue And as Error pointed out, the vets here are already filthy rich. They aren't in need of NIC as much as new peeps are in need of EP.
And by "rich giving to the poor" I only ment that new peeps would get a benefit that the old players didn't get for the good of the game. IF it would bring us more peeps, then every1 wins. IF it doesn't. Well, at least why tried, but are back to the vets only, and some few brave new peeps that sees pass the EP-GAP and enjoys the game. I wish every1 would be like that, but I'm afraid most ain't. And that's why a tweak to time progression system COULD lead to even more staying.

Now I'm off to the club. wink

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Re: The GAP...

There is NO evidence that changing the EP system will bring in more players.  Most MMOs are in decline, and what you are suggesting is doing what the decliners are doing.

If Perp whats to break out of the box, then they have to think outside the box.

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Re: The GAP...

Mongolia Jones wrote:

There is NO evidence that changing the EP system will bring in more players.  Most MMOs are in decline, and what you are suggesting is doing what the decliners are doing.

If Perp wants to break out of the box, then they have to think outside the box.

+1

Aaron, please be patient. We will help you out in the beginning. There is no reason to change EP.

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Re: The GAP...

Cassius wrote:
Mongolia Jones wrote:

There is NO evidence that changing the EP system will bring in more players.  Most MMOs are in decline, and what you are suggesting is doing what the decliners are doing.

If Perp wants to break out of the box, then they have to think outside the box.

+1

Aaron, please be patient. We will help you out in the beginning. There is no reason to change EP.

As I said. Don't worry bout me. This ain't about me. I said I have 2 characters with over 500k EP. Don't worry bout me. Worry bout the new players that is coming...

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Re: The GAP...

greenlight will be great

3000 people pissing about EP

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Re: The GAP...

It's all about content. More EP unlocks more content which might sound like a good fix but the real solution would be just to add more stuff to do with all robot types, including lights and assaults.

- Could add NPCs that are easy to farm with lights and assaults but difficult with mechs and hmechs.
- Could move some ore fields to appear mostly on hilly terrain so easier to reach in Argano but more difficult in Riveler.
- Could add a new weapon system that requires only one cheap skill to use(like Bombs in EVE for Stealth Bombers).

Those are just some random suggestions to give more value to bots newbies use. If they have something fun and worthwhile to do in those cheap bots then waiting few months for EP to grow might not sound so bad.

114 Reply by Lobo

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Re: The GAP...

Have some small peninsula or mountain tops that are only accessible by lights and make the npcs there easy for lights to farm.

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115 Reply by Arga

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Re: The GAP...

Aaron Sool wrote:

What? I don't wanna turn this into any other game. I want Perp to be Perp. But if a system is flawed, like time based progression is in a MMO according to me

Perp is a time based system, your opinion is time based systems are bad, so you really don't like Perp. You like some aspects of it but you are trying to change the base game to be something that you do like.

The MMO genre doesn't mean everyone has to be equal, that is a theme-park MMO critera.

In a Sandbox MMO, it's almost certain that everything will never be equal, even if there were no character progression stats.

Perp should add in some potatos (new content), but it will still be brocolli WITH potatos.

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Re: The GAP...

Arga wrote:
Aaron Sool wrote:

What? I don't wanna turn this into any other game. I want Perp to be Perp. But if a system is flawed, like time based progression is in a MMO according to me

Perp is a time based system, your opinion is time based systems are bad, so you really don't like Perp. You like some aspects of it but you are trying to change the base game to be something that you do like.

The MMO genre doesn't mean everyone has to be equal, that is a theme-park MMO critera.

In a Sandbox MMO, it's almost certain that everything will never be equal, even if there were no character progression stats.

Perp should add in some potatos (new content), but it will still be brocolli WITH potatos.

I don't think its bad at all, but we could agree it's not popular enough.

RIP PERPETUUM

117 Reply by Arga

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Celebro wrote:

I don't think its bad at all, but we could agree it's not popular enough.

That's a completely different approach; Is there a large enough player base to support Perp in it's current form?

It's an interesting question, but ultimately irrelevant.

While it would be 'simple' enough to change how the EP works, what isn't simple is the impact it would have on game play, and the cascade of changes that would need to go into effect to make the game re-balanced.

Bluntly, AC doesn't have the resources to predict or respond to the impact of such a major change. They could literally kill their own game, which I assure you they do not want to risk.

So while this whole EP adjustment thread is a nice diversion, I reiterate that it's ulimately irrelevant; case in point, AC is agonizing over the changing "approach" command, arguably a much less complicated impact on the game then trying to change the BASE structure of the game.

118 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2014-01-13 22:52:36)

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Re: The GAP...

Extract from the Perpetuum Manifesto: http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Media:Manifesto

Level playing field


"When it comes to character progression, we employ a very strict level playing field policy. This means that each and every character in the game progresses with their skills at the same rate, no exceptions. This way older characters will enjoy a unique versatility of playstyles as they fully learn certain skills, but in no way means that newer characters won’t be able to catch up to them in areas of their choice. The level playing field concept guarantees that older character means more versatile character."

In a nutshell you can catch up, but in x number of years or months. smile

RIP PERPETUUM

119 Reply by Arga

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Re: The GAP...

I would probably have gone into the whole concept of why GAP isn't an issue, but there's plenty of threads about it already on the forums, and the "Gap" proponets in those threads where never convinced by them.  I suspect it's because as Aaron says, it's his opinion and he has a right to have and express it, but the problem with opinion is there's no level of evidence or facts one can provide that will ever elicit a change in opinon. Almost by definition it requires an emotional arguement to sway someone's emotionally biased opinion (biased isn't a negative conotation in this usage).

Any hoo.

Continue to discuss, don't mind me.

120 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2014-01-13 23:25:05)

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Re: The GAP...

Arga wrote:

AC is agonizing over the changing "approach" command, arguably a much less complicated impact on the game then trying to change the BASE structure of the game.

I agree that changing a base structure is not in their best interest atm. Although for the sake of this discussion, with some minor changes we could improve on the time based system and make it more popular for the masses.

At the end of the day would you rather build and sell in bulk  t4 cargo scanners or  t4 LWF? OFC your decision will come on the one that sells more or in other words, the most popular one smile

RIP PERPETUUM

121 Reply by Arga

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Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:

At the end of the day would you rather build and sell in bulk  t4 cargo scanners or  t4 LWF? OFC your decision will come on the one that sells more or in other words, the most popular one smile

It took a long time for T4 frames to 'leak' into the market place, M2S had a distinct advantage as one of the few corps with access to not only the T4 prototypes, but enough production capcity (for T1-3) and epitron to make them in bulk.

How out of balance would the game be with an 'injection' of 100's of new players capable of fitting T4 mechs from day one (with 500k boost)?

122 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2014-01-13 23:57:45)

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Re: The GAP...

Arga wrote:
Celebro wrote:

At the end of the day would you rather build and sell in bulk  t4 cargo scanners or  t4 LWF? OFC your decision will come on the one that sells more or in other words, the most popular one smile

It took a long time for T4 frames to 'leak' into the market place, M2S had a distinct advantage as one of the few corps with access to not only the T4 prototypes, but enough production capcity (for T1-3) and epitron to make them in bulk.

How out of balance would the game be with an 'injection' of 100's of new players capable of fitting T4 mechs from day one (with 500k boost)?

I understand your point, it will be way out of balanced OFC. That's why the only alternative I gave to OP is trade NIC for EP within the present EP pool ingame(no extra EP comes from thin air). This balances its self out as no extra EP is produced globally, it only changes hands.

RIP PERPETUUM

123 Reply by Arga

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I don't know, seems like it would require a lot of restirctions, or people would just start new accounts and sell themselves all the EP for 1 NIC; or some other 'sneaky' workaround that results in the same thing as directly selling EP.

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Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:

Extract from the Perpetuum Manifesto: http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Media:Manifesto

Level playing field


"When it comes to character progression, we employ a very strict level playing field policy. This means that each and every character in the game progresses with their skills at the same rate, no exceptions. This way older characters will enjoy a unique versatility of playstyles as they fully learn certain skills, but in no way means that newer characters won’t be able to catch up to them in areas of their choice. The level playing field concept guarantees that older character means more versatile character."

In a nutshell you can catch up, but in x number of years or months. smile

That works in EVE because you have so many skills that impact different classes of ships (frigate/cruiser/battleship/dread/carrier/titan), and their T2 skill variants (stealth bomber, interceptor, interdictor, heavy interdictor, heavy assault cruiser, strategic cruiser, marauder, blablabla).

In Perp you only have 2+1 skills. Advanced robotics. Basic robotics. + optional racial robotics.

So in order to catch up, any new player/corporation must dedicate 1 account per each combat role (Vaga EWAR, Zen EWAR, Ictus EnWar, Seth, Mesmer, Gropho, Remote-Repair, NEXUS, etc) and then grind Alpha stuff for 4-5 months to get their skills on-par with everything.

Because the moment they step out into PVP, they will fight T4+Mk2 bots piloted by accounts that are absolutely max skilled for those robots.

The problem is nobody will want to pay 20-30-40$ a month to play a dead game to mindlessly grind for 2-3-4-5 months before they have even a long shot at getting an outpost on Beta nevermind a Gamma, without losing it the moment someone gets bored or drunk.

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Re: The GAP...

Norrdec wrote:

That works in EVE because you have so many skills that impact different classes of ships (frigate/cruiser/battleship/dread/carrier/titan), and their T2 skill variants (stealth bomber, interceptor, interdictor, heavy interdictor, heavy assault cruiser, strategic cruiser, marauder, blablabla).

In Perp you only have 2+1 skills. Advanced robotics. Basic robotics. + optional racial robotics.

So in order to catch up, any new player/corporation must dedicate 1 account per each combat role (Vaga EWAR, Zen EWAR, Ictus EnWar, Seth, Mesmer, Gropho, Remote-Repair, NEXUS, etc) and then grind Alpha stuff for 4-5 months to get their skills on-par with everything.

Because the moment they step out into PVP, they will fight T4+Mk2 bots piloted by accounts that are absolutely max skilled for those robots.

The problem is nobody will want to pay 20-30-40$ a month to play a dead game to mindlessly grind for 2-3-4-5 months before they have even a long shot at getting an outpost on Beta nevermind a Gamma, without losing it the moment someone gets bored or drunk.

I think this is a good point. Especially first. It would be really nice to separate the classes and make able to raise their skill to maximum enough fast. So you would be able to get high skill on light ewar, but with no cross-skill with others even ew-mechs.

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