76 Reply by Aaron Sool (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-10 22:07:03)

  • RAD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Zortarg Calltar wrote:
Norrdec wrote:
Zortarg Calltar wrote:

- new players can catch up in a resonable amount of time!

Stuff

They can't or won't, otherwise there would be actually some people and corps playing this game instead of 10-20 guys multiboxing a bunch of accounts.

3 years of burying head in sand, pretending everyone in the world wants to play PO and Steam will fix everything is NOT a solution.

What's the most common excuse people have against playing EVE? Don't want to be forever behind. And you think they'll come play a budget-version of EVE so 10-20 of us can kick them around like used condoms? Wake up pls.

the so called gap is not the problem. i doubt that the ep difference will be a big issue for a lot ppl. everybody who plays a time based progression system knows how it works. if you dont like that then you dont play these kind of games.

the main problem lies in 2 things:
- content
- advertisement

these are the problems of the game. not a gap. you will not get 2000 more players because you shorten the gap, that will basicly be gone in 3 months playtime anyway.
multiboxing is another issue but i think that is addessed in a different topic atm.

You can't say that there won't be "2000" more peeps coming, cause you don't know. You don't sit on that answer. Neither do I or any1 else. But CLEARLY there hasn't been any increase in population with the current system, and the gap won't be "gone" in 3 months anyway as it is now. What r u talking about!?!? The gap will be intact EP-vice. So unless you can travel in time, and find out that a tweak to the current EP system WON'T bring more peeps to the game, then everything you say is pure speculation. As is everything I say. BUT!!!! We've done "your" system for 3 years now, and what do we have? A dying population/game. And none of us here want that. Sure the game also need more content and more adverticement(as I remember they did advertice it at launch). But why not also try to do something bout the EP-system? I still don't get this. Nothing bad can come from it. So wtf not TRY!?!? fuuu

  • PHM
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Let me show you what a 400K EP player(9 Months) can do:

http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=related&id=239407

The guys in red are dead.  That was a 2v1 btw.  It's not about EP its how you spend it and training.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

78 Reply by Aaron Sool (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-10 22:51:41)

  • RAD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Ville wrote:

Let me show you what a 400K EP player(9 Months) can do:

http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=related&id=239407

The guys in red are dead.  That was a 2v1 btw.  It's not about EP its how you spend it and training.

Awesome!!! But most peeps won't stay 9 months with the current EP system and the GAP to old timers... That's at least what I think is a part of the problem. Not the entire problem. But a piece in it. So why not do something about it, while we do all the rest as well?

  • -77-
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

I'm really curious how new players in EVE compete with players that have 10+ years of EP. 

After reading this thread, I'm sure EVE has not been getting new subs for the last 7 years.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC
  • RAD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Mongolia Jones wrote:

I'm really curious how new players in EVE compete with players that have 10+ years of EP. 

After reading this thread, I'm sure EVE has not been getting new subs for the last 7 years.

EVE don't have to do anything bout it, cause they have a solid playerbase. New players still complain about it there as well. And EVE has been alone in it's genre for quite some time. But soon they will be up against Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen. It's gonna be nice to see how their numbers will be once they are launched. But the system is just as flawed with EVE as it is with Perp. I know Perp took alot from EVE, but that one they should have left out. One has to wonder why other companies isn't doing this level system if it's as good as some here say...

81 Reply by Arga (edited by Arga 2014-01-11 00:26:23)

  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

The point isn't if it's "Good" of not.

I can't say this any other way, Perp is a time based skill game. Trying to argue that players are leaving because of that is the same thing as saying people don't eat broccli because they hate vegtables; it's accurate but irrelevant if all you are serving is broccli.

Also Edit:

Aaron Sool wrote:

But most peeps won't stay 9 months with the current EP system

There's simply no facts to back this up.

As players we don't have access to account drop rates and certainly even AC doesn't have exit data on WHY people didn't renew.

  • CIR
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Zortarg Calltar wrote:
Norrdec wrote:
Zortarg Calltar wrote:

- new players can catch up in a resonable amount of time!

Stuff

They can't or won't, otherwise there would be actually some people and corps playing this game instead of 10-20 guys multiboxing a bunch of accounts.

3 years of burying head in sand, pretending everyone in the world wants to play PO and Steam will fix everything is NOT a solution.

What's the most common excuse people have against playing EVE? Don't want to be forever behind. And you think they'll come play a budget-version of EVE so 10-20 of us can kick them around like used condoms? Wake up pls.

the so called gap is not the problem. i doubt that the ep difference will be a big issue for a lot ppl. everybody who plays a time based progression system knows how it works. if you dont like that then you dont play these kind of games.

the main problem lies in 2 things:
- content
- advertisement

these are the problems of the game. not a gap. you will not get 2000 more players because you shorten the gap, that will basicly be gone in 3 months playtime anyway.
multiboxing is another issue but i think that is addessed in a different topic atm.

It takes ~33 days to train into a qualified stealth bomber pilot in EVE, and there's plenty of PVP there by joining a channel (don't even need to join a corp) and flying with Bombers Bar fleets. 

Who is gonna pay to wait 3-4 months to start playing a budget version of EVE?

<GargajCNS> we maim to please
  • -77-
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Aaron Sool wrote:
Mongolia Jones wrote:

I'm really curious how new players in EVE compete with players that have 10+ years of EP. 

After reading this thread, I'm sure EVE has not been getting new subs for the last 7 years.

EVE don't have to do anything bout it, cause they have a solid playerbase. New players still complain about it there as well. And EVE has been alone in it's genre for quite some time. But soon they will be up against Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen. It's gonna be nice to see how their numbers will be once they are launched. But the system is just as flawed with EVE as it is with Perp. I know Perp took alot from EVE, but that one they should have left out. One has to wonder why other companies isn't doing this level system if it's as good as some here say...

Ya, Aaron you are right, why didn't I see that before.  The devs should have made a WOW clone (or some other clone) done hundreds of times over.  Because we know all of those other MMOs never go out of biz. 

In fact what is the percentage that the other MMOs go belly up?

Here's a stat for you to chew on: the "other" MMOs have had more than 50% of their kind shut their servers.  But between EVE and Perpetuum, we are still batting 1.000.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC
  • ETHOS
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Why not do this?

This is the only 1 question.

The "FEELING" is more important than we think, and if the Newbie feel like "hey I can catc you" in a reasonable time I PLAY  HURRAY!

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

85 Reply by Aaron Sool (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-11 09:52:58)

  • RAD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Arga wrote:

The point isn't if it's "Good" of not.

I can't say this any other way, Perp is a time based skill game. Trying to argue that players are leaving because of that is the same thing as saying people don't eat broccli because they hate vegtables; it's accurate but irrelevant if all you are serving is broccli.

Also Edit:

Aaron Sool wrote:

But most peeps won't stay 9 months with the current EP system

There's simply no facts to back this up.

As players we don't have access to account drop rates and certainly even AC doesn't have exit data on WHY people didn't renew.

You missed out the last part of that last quote where I said "That's at least what I think is a part of the problem". So yeah, there is no actuall "fact" on the subject. But what we do have right now, is a very low population. At's at least the only "evidence" we have that something is off. And as I stated before, this ain't the only problem, but one of them. And one that could be quite easily solved with Indas suggestion, cause you would keep the current system, just give new players more EP up to 500K etc.
To take your food analogy. It would be like saying "We only serve broccoli here take it or leave it", but some customers say "Well, if I could at least get some potatoes to that broccoli then I'll eat here". So why not serve the potatoes then if it could lead to even more customers coming?

86 Reply by Aaron Sool (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-11 10:09:19)

  • RAD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Aaron Sool wrote:
Mongolia Jones wrote:

I'm really curious how new players in EVE compete with players that have 10+ years of EP. 

After reading this thread, I'm sure EVE has not been getting new subs for the last 7 years.

EVE don't have to do anything bout it, cause they have a solid playerbase. New players still complain about it there as well. And EVE has been alone in it's genre for quite some time. But soon they will be up against Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen. It's gonna be nice to see how their numbers will be once they are launched. But the system is just as flawed with EVE as it is with Perp. I know Perp took alot from EVE, but that one they should have left out. One has to wonder why other companies isn't doing this level system if it's as good as some here say...

Ya, Aaron you are right, why didn't I see that before.  The devs should have made a WOW clone (or some other clone) done hundreds of times over.  Because we know all of those other MMOs never go out of biz. 

In fact what is the percentage that the other MMOs go belly up?

Here's a stat for you to chew on: the "other" MMOs have had more than 50% of their kind shut their servers.  But between EVE and Perpetuum, we are still batting 1.000.

Ohh rly? There is hundreds of MMOs that's been released, if not thousands. Can you show me all those hundreds of MMOs that has been shut down please? It ain't THAT many MMOs that has shut down their servers...
And as I said before. EVE has been one of it's kind. The only space sandbox MMO out there. So peeps that's been dying to have such a MMO has only had EVE to turn to. But Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen is comming soon. And it's gonna be interesting to see how EVE holds up then. And Perp linger on with 100-200 active players, and the only reason it still is here is cause most of those peeps run multiple accounts, and the staff is down to, how many r they, 2-3 DEVs?
The only peeps that would think time based progression "is da boooomb" are those that been with the game from day 1, and that don't want ANY1 to close the gap to their precious EP even if it could lead to less people joining.
The system is flawed. Period. Or tell me why, if it's THIS good, why HASN'T more MMOs used it? 
But the good thing is it can be fixed quite easily. And every1 would benefit from this. Even the old timers.

87 Reply by BankOfEngland (edited by BankOfEngland 2014-01-11 10:27:47)

  • JOKE
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Honestly I think progression is actually too quick not to slow. You can be any mech in the game within a month. You can be good in it in three. You can be very good in six.

From a monerary point of view you can afford a top end fit of any mech in the first week.

This doesn't bode well for long term appeal.

  • JOKE
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

BankOfEngland wrote:

Honestly I think progression is actually too quick not to slow. You can be any mech in the game within a month. You can be good in it in three. You can be very good in six.

From a monerary point of view you can afford a top end fit of any mech in the first week.

This doesn't bode well for long term appeal.

+1 I remember the time moving into a mech, it was so rewarding, I don't remember how much it took from lights/assaults to mech, but I did enjoy my time with light and assaults.

OP seems to think that skills (EP) in this game is the key to winning, but this is far from the truth, skills in Perp are far less important than in other MMOs with a grind based system.

Many in this thread also assume new players would have no choice but to group together with other inexperienced players, but I have seen time and again player who can mix up with the new to balance out.

Tbh new players have it easier with advice and help from vets.

RIP PERPETUUM

89 Reply by Aaron Sool (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-11 12:00:33)

  • RAD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:
BankOfEngland wrote:

Honestly I think progression is actually too quick not to slow. You can be any mech in the game within a month. You can be good in it in three. You can be very good in six.

From a monerary point of view you can afford a top end fit of any mech in the first week.

This doesn't bode well for long term appeal.

+1 I remember the time moving into a mech, it was so rewarding, I don't remember how much it took from lights/assaults to mech, but I did enjoy my time with light and assaults.

OP seems to think that skills (EP) in this game is the key to winning, but this is far from the truth, skills in Perp are far less important than in other MMOs with a grind based system.

Many in this thread also assume new players would have no choice but to group together with other inexperienced players, but I have seen time and again player who can mix up with the new to balance out.

Tbh new players have it easier with advice and help from vets.

If you think this thread is about winning or loosing then you've missed the point completly. It's bout having new players have a boost when they start playing to feel that they "catch on" to those that been here longer. Get a incentive to stay longer. So the game can take off into the blue blue sky where it belongs.
But how can you say skill is far less important here then any other MMO? It's just as important here as other MMOs to have good skills here. The numbers for it is in all skills. Ofc those % counts for something.
But we know they won't do something bout it before steam. I just hope enough peeps stay for the game itself. Cause if they start leaving again then it might be to late for a change. Hopefully a change won't be to late by then. So let's see how this turns out. What me and others want is for this game to finally bloom. 3 years is a long time for MMO and for it to have this low pop at this stage ain't good. Steam is their second chance. Let's hope it solves it then. I'm afraid it won't be enough. But me and others are hopefully proven wrong.

  • -77-
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Aaron, this is a niche game.  Basically you are coming to this game, not a fan of this niche, and telling us that we need to drop the niche and do what everybody else does.  Oh and by the way, there is no guarantee that it will be a success if we do drop the niche.

I recommend that you try one of 1000's of other mmos out there that are mass marketed to players like you.

"...we will take undefended gammas and stations."  -Cassius of STC
  • RAD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Mongolia Jones wrote:

Aaron, this is a niche game.  Basically you are coming to this game, not a fan of this niche, and telling us that we need to drop the niche and do what everybody else does.  Oh and by the way, there is no guarantee that it will be a success if we do drop the niche.

I recommend that you try one of 1000's of other mmos out there that are mass marketed to players like you.

What? I don't wanna turn this into any other game. I want Perp to be Perp. But if a system is flawed, like time based progression is in a MMO according to me, and if the population in the game you like is at a all time low, and you don't want that game to die, well then me and many others start looking for ways to get the game to where it should be. You know. Have a dialogue about. And a thing that many of us think is holding new peeps off from staying in the game is the GAP that many new player feel they have to the old players. And the feeling that they can't ever close that GAP, so wtf stay. And they leave.
I personally could care less since I have 2 characters with 500k+ EP, and Inda has with 1.5k+ EP etc. It ain't about me or us that want something like this. We only wan't something that might make more peeps stay with the game. It's about a system we think can be tweaked to suit more people. We still are talking bout a keeping the time based progression, but giving new players more EP from the get go. Read up on Indas suggestions if you've missed it. And as we said, this ain't the only solution to the population-problem. But it could be one. So why not do something about it. Nothing bad can outa it. Except some EP-hugging peeps that think their EP is the most important thing in the game, and no new players should come here and *** dat up!!! Well guess what. Vets are the backbones of this game, but the new players are the future of it. We need them to stay for the game to truly thrive. If that can happen without suck a change in reasonable time. OK. But if it doesn't, and steam was released, and 2-3 months from now we still sit with 100-200 players ingame. Then we've missed a big oppurtunity to maybe have some of them ingame. But only time will tell I guess.
The only thing I want is for the game to succeed.

  • Hawt
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Aaron Sool wrote:

Steam is their second chance. Let's hope it solves it then. I'm afraid it won't be enough. But me and others are hopefully proven wrong.

It's even worse and actually Perps 3rd chance.
1. initial release
2. EVE refugees
3. STEAM release

The GAP was already huge 2 years ago and is much bigger these days. Additional to the gigantic difference in EPs comes the ridiculous wealth acquired over time (and by horrible unbalanced game mechanics in the past). A possible counter to an EP advantage is numbers. A possible counter to an EP advantage and filthy wealth is ... well there is no real counter. Not even if you're trying hard and selling your soul. Considering that many "questionable" game mechanics are still present in the game (as they were at the time of EVE refugees) i sadly doubt in the long term success of STEAM player influx. Hopefully i'm wrong.

And lolz @ guys stating EPs are not that important in Perp. Ridiculous. May i suggest you stop multi accounting and start to have fun with a single account and 1 EP/minute as the game was initially intended?

  • JOKE
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Whats so important to catch in skills on a game to have fun, is what I have a hard time to understand.

RIP PERPETUUM

94 Reply by Aaron Sool (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-11 15:42:40)

  • RAD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:

Whats so important to catch in skills on a game to have fun, is what I have a hard time to understand.

What's so important with keeping the old system IF more peeps would come and stay with the suggestions we've brought up? If they don't come. Well then fine. At least we tried something. As it is now, we do nothing, and hope that what hasn't brought peeps to the game for 3 years, will suddenly bring them in.
I know that a BIG MMO-site will review it again. So I know new peeps will arrive. I just wanted some system like the once suggested here to be in place to have them stay outside the new player experience etc. But who knows. Maybe a good review there and steam-launch is enough? I'm afraid it's not. But I would be happily suprised if it is.

95 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2014-01-11 16:39:43)

  • JOKE
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Aaron Sool wrote:
Celebro wrote:

Whats so important to catch in skills on a game to have fun, is what I have a hard time to understand.

What's so important with keeping the old system IF more peeps would come and stay with the suggestions we've brought up?

No they won't, they will finish the content faster get bored and leave. What we need is better missions and PVE systems different kinds of specialised bots at a lower EP level, try and keep them interested. Dev are addressing Mission overhaul right after Steam, so right now it's slow but it looks like a good plan.

RIP PERPETUUM
  • ETHOS
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Aaron I like your patience!

And good work on argueing, all of the time you was honorable, and dont attack anyone, this is how we argue guys.

I also dont say this is the only soltuion I also dont say this will alone help Perpetuum, but the already said

- 3 year and nothing happened in player bas 100-200 ish

- STEAM is comin and have an opportuinty to change


I will be there to Perpetuum ending, but this game is better than just 10 year with 100-200 people, this can be really appreciated game on the MMO market, and then we reach that I will be HAPPY as ...
And yes I am Hungarian and I know our country is the hardest where this idea can happen so PROPS to DEVS they did one of the hardest thing here so REALLY REALLY APREACIATE IT! And would be one of the best thing what can happen with our small country. Still good work guys I cant say enough time that.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD
  • RAD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:
Aaron Sool wrote:
Celebro wrote:

Whats so important to catch in skills on a game to have fun, is what I have a hard time to understand.

What's so important with keeping the old system IF more peeps would come and stay with the suggestions we've brought up?

No they won't, they will finish the content faster get bored and leave. What we need is better missions and PVE systems different kinds of specialised bots at a lower EP level, try and keep them interested. Dev are addressing Mission overhaul right after Steam, so right now it's slow but it looks like a good plan.

Again. Do you know this for sure? No you don't. Cause we haven't been able to test it. And as we've said through the entire thread. This ain't the ONLY way to keep new peeps. More content etc is ofc also a reason. But why not cover all the ground to be on the safe side? This I don't get.

98 Reply by Aaron Sool (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-11 17:18:24)

  • RAD
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Inda wrote:

Aaron I like your patience!

And good work on argueing, all of the time you was honorable, and dont attack anyone, this is how we argue guys.

I also dont say this is the only soltuion I also dont say this will alone help Perpetuum, but the already said

- 3 year and nothing happened in player bas 100-200 ish

- STEAM is comin and have an opportuinty to change


I will be there to Perpetuum ending, but this game is better than just 10 year with 100-200 people, this can be really appreciated game on the MMO market, and then we reach that I will be HAPPY as ...
And yes I am Hungarian and I know our country is the hardest where this idea can happen so PROPS to DEVS they did one of the hardest thing here so REALLY REALLY APREACIATE IT! And would be one of the best thing what can happen with our small country. Still good work guys I cant say enough time that.

Thx Inda. I try to keep it civil. To me it seems like some here think I do this for myself only, and that I do it to *** with the vets. I have the highest respect for the vets of this game. Most I've delt with are fantastic peeps, and are still helping me ingame since I have alot to learn. But I've been on and off with Perp over the years, and each time I've gotten back the population has shrunk. And I think it sux. The games deserves much higher population. So I want to discuss different things that could bring new peeps to the game and stay. And the GAP-issue is one of them in my opinion, and also one that could be easily tweaked to help new players early on. I would go for it and see if it would work. But for now it seems the DEVs won't do anything bout it before STEAM-release. I just hope they pull through, cause I would hate for the game to die. And the only thing that is turning me of, is playing a game like Perp, with this low population. If we get more population by not fixing the GAP, but other stuff. Then I be happy. But I'm afraid that if it doesn't work, then the boat might have sailed that would save this fantastic game.

99 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2014-01-11 17:21:58)

  • JOKE
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

If you could trade NIC for Ep in a very restrictive let say only purchasing 10k EP per week which adds to your additional  10k odd EP per week you already get, I am willing to accept that.Only if only you can TRADE the available EP pool ingame ,no way to magically make EP out of thin air from the Perpetuum store.

RIP PERPETUUM
  • -77-
  • Agent
  • Offline

Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:

If you could trade NIC for Ep in a very restrictive let say only purchasing 10k EP per week which adds to your additional  10k odd EP per week you already get, I am willing to accept that.Only if only you can TRADE the available EP pool ingame ,no way to magically make EP out of thin air from the Perpetuum store.

Interesting idea. However, then those rich guys could purchase 10 accounts and funnel all the EP into one!

Pay2win fuuu

Sparking to other games