51 (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-09 10:38:57)

Re: The GAP...

Inda wrote:

Ok Lets STEAM hit but be ready if the EP GAP will lose ton of people and implement,

3 EP/min to 500 k EP > 129 600 /month (vs ~43 000) so 4 month  (vs 11,6 month)
2 EP/min to 1 m EP    > 86 400 /month (vs ~43 000) so  6 month  (vs 11,6 month)
1 EP/min after                                                             10 total          23 total

Not a big deal...

I am not with EP GAP I would like more player as you all. (And I know Perpetuum is a very good game already. But who came and leave dont, or dont liek that type of game)

This is a exellent suggestion Inda. Very easy to implement as well. The core system is intact, but it helps new players gain momentum from the get go. And then they can continue to focus on new content. Every1 wins. YAY!!!

52 (edited by Burial 2014-01-09 11:49:35)

Re: The GAP...

Don't think the GAP problem is really that big. I compared EVE and Perpetuum skill-cost charts and made them available here for everyone to compare.

In EVE, there's less total skill levels and the contrast between SP cost is apparent on each level. In Perpetuum, we have 10 skills with two noticable breaking points in the cost: one at level 5 and another at level 9.

Some facts about Perpetuum extensions:
- 13500 EP to level extension to 10. 4800 EP to level extension to 8. 900 EP to level extension to 5.
- Level 9 to 10 is close the same cost as level 1 to 9. (First costs 6000 EP and latter 7500 EP)

Another thing to note is that it takes average EVE stroller(2000EP/h) about 6,45 days to level rank 1 skill from 0 to 5 but it takes 9,37 days to level a rank 1 skill to 10 in Perpetuum.

One could argue that the first breaking point could be moved to 7 instead of 5 to make extensions easier to train for less EP.

53 (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-09 11:27:05)

Re: The GAP...

That could also work Burial. With a respec to everyone. But I'm more in favor with Indas suggestion as it shrink the GAP some for new players compared to old players.
But what I would like to know from Zoom and Co is if ANY of this is at all up on the table. Or if some of us should just "stfu" and live with what we have now?

Re: The GAP...

Either works, I would like the EP sugggestion they more feel like "hey I can catch you" (instead hey i can train soo fast).


Basically to evertyhing that true:
"just "stfu" and live with what we have now?"

So everyone just stfu and like the gameplay or not, but this cant happen, I can stfu with any problem.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: The GAP...

ANOTHER IDEA:

You can gain EP from farming, mining etc. from activity but just that much you gained by time in a month.

So you can gain EP quicker in a month ~43 000 but you need to wait until you can get more EP again. maybe this is going to some incentive to online presencen and play. And who like "grind" and like WOW liek it.


OR ANOTHER:

My most loved idea is, you can grind some more EP with activity like 200 EP per day or sorta. So that incentives people to do but not screw up the EP thing.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: The GAP...

Inda wrote:

Ok Lets STEAM hit but be ready if the EP GAP will lose ton of people and implement,

3 EP/min to 500 k EP > 129 600 /month (vs ~43 000) so 4 month  (vs 11,6 month)
2 EP/min to 1 m EP    > 86 400 /month (vs ~43 000) so  6 month  (vs 11,6 month)
1 EP/min after                                                             10 total          23 total

Not a big deal...

I am not with EP GAP I would like more player as you all. (And I know Perpetuum is a very good game already. But who came and leave dont, or dont liek that type of game)

+1

Re: The GAP...

Jasdemi wrote:
Inda wrote:

Ok Lets STEAM hit but be ready if the EP GAP will lose ton of people and implement,

3 EP/min to 500 k EP > 129 600 /month (vs ~43 000) so 4 month  (vs 11,6 month)
2 EP/min to 1 m EP    > 86 400 /month (vs ~43 000) so  6 month  (vs 11,6 month)
1 EP/min after                                                             10 total          23 total

Not a big deal...

I am not with EP GAP I would like more player as you all. (And I know Perpetuum is a very good game already. But who came and leave dont, or dont liek that type of game)

+1

Ya that will help my alt alot doit doit xD

Srsly, such ideas only help if there will be a way to limit it for newbies only - with IP matching etc etc. Otherwise, our oldies will just quickly level-up some alts for special roles.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: The GAP...

Line wrote:
Jasdemi wrote:
Inda wrote:

Ok Lets STEAM hit but be ready if the EP GAP will lose ton of people and implement,

3 EP/min to 500 k EP > 129 600 /month (vs ~43 000) so 4 month  (vs 11,6 month)
2 EP/min to 1 m EP    > 86 400 /month (vs ~43 000) so  6 month  (vs 11,6 month)
1 EP/min after                                                             10 total          23 total

Not a big deal...

I am not with EP GAP I would like more player as you all. (And I know Perpetuum is a very good game already. But who came and leave dont, or dont liek that type of game)

+1

Ya that will help my alt alot doit doit xD

Srsly, such ideas only help if there will be a way to limit it for newbies only - with IP matching etc etc. Otherwise, our oldies will just quickly level-up some alts for special roles.

Why shouldn't they be able to do that? It's not like vets don't sit on 5+ accounts already. More money to the Devs is always good for the game. This argument doesn't hold. Also vets would have less reason to make alts if more players join and stick with the game. Right now most peeps need a alt to be able to get what they want. With more players the need for alts will shrink with every new player that joins.

Re: The GAP...

Burial wrote:

Don't think the GAP problem is really that big. I compared EVE and Perpetuum skill-cost charts and made them available here for everyone to compare.

In EVE, there's less total skill levels and the contrast between SP cost is apparent on each level. In Perpetuum, we have 10 skills with two noticable breaking points in the cost: one at level 5 and another at level 9.

Some facts about Perpetuum extensions:
- 13500 EP to level extension to 10. 4800 EP to level extension to 8. 900 EP to level extension to 5.
- Level 9 to 10 is close the same cost as level 1 to 9. (First costs 6000 EP and latter 7500 EP)

Another thing to note is that it takes average EVE stroller(2000EP/h) about 6,45 days to level rank 1 skill from 0 to 5 but it takes 9,37 days to level a rank 1 skill to 10 in Perpetuum.

One could argue that the first breaking point could be moved to 7 instead of 5 to make extensions easier to train for less EP.

Comparing it like that doesn't work because if a skill gives you 3% of something, that means in EVE you get 1x3% increase and in Perp you get 3x3% increase (if you take 7 as the breaking point). You can go more complex then middle school math and argue that 3x3% isn't 9% (and you would be very correct), but that's besides the point.

The "norm" is L10 + T4 + Mk2 or gtfo. Has been since forever, that will never change and noobs will get slaughtered until they quit and go play EVE or sub for months.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

60 (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2014-01-09 13:58:10)

Re: The GAP...

we had this multible times and, but i do it again.

- new players can catch up in a resonable amount of time!

- this is a game of time based progression. you cant reset it. thats against the core gameplay and will break the thrust in the devs.

- eve is running 10 years and ppl still join the game. try to catch up there. the gap in eve is way harder then in perp and its no issue there.

- you need some patience in these kind of games anyway. that alone will block out a lot players. even eve is no multi million player community (think they are at a few 100k). ppl that dont have that patience will not stay anyway. they might stay a month longer if you give them more goodies, but once the goodies run out then these kind of ppl will be gone anyway. you you dont solve the problem you only prolong the problem.

- the only thing you will lose with a reset wil be most of the few vets that are still here.

- vets are not a "problem". its often the other way around. they help new players a lot, just as you saw at the post in this topic from a new player.


there is no gain with a ep reset or closing gap mechanic. it might look as a solution in short term, but it will change nothing on the long term and only make things worse. not if you dont change the core game with ep/min.

Zort

Re: The GAP...

What I suggested Zort is not a hard thing, it wont rule the game and the EP what we get, this is only jsut a "little" tuning to it, if it works I am happy if not who care, still have way less people,

as Aaron Sool said, why dont try it? No issue here.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

62 (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-09 17:32:38)

Re: The GAP...

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

we had this multible times and, but i do it again.

- new players can catch up in a resonable amount of time!

The time it would take to get there is to long atm. And I'm afraid more would leave then stay with the current system.

- this is a game of time based progression. you cant reset it. thats against the core gameplay and will break the thrust in the devs.

We shouldn't reset anything. And the suggestions that has been brought up here wouldn't brake anything. The only thing it would do is give new players alittle more EP then us older players got at the same time. I could care less about this as long as it brings new players to the game. And even old timers as Inda and Jasdemi things beyond their precious EP, and looks for what could benefit the game in the long run. And in my eyes I would apploud the devs for doing something like this. Admitting that they did wrong in this case, and now look for a system that pleases both new and old players, and makes the game take off into a new brighter future. Hopefully.

- eve is running 10 years and ppl still join the game. try to catch up there. the gap in eve is way harder then in perp and its no issue there.

As I said before. EVE don't have to change *** cause they already have a 600k playerbase. That doesn't make the actuall leveling system any good.

- you need some patience in these kind of games anyway. that alone will block out a lot players. even eve is no multi million player community (think they are at a few 100k). ppl that dont have that patience will not stay anyway. they might stay a month longer if you give them more goodies, but once the goodies run out then these kind of ppl will be gone anyway. you you dont solve the problem you only prolong the problem.

Agree that you need patience, but things can be put in to ease that for some people. Why not do it if it would lead to them staying with the game longer?

- the only thing you will lose with a reset wil be most of the few vets that are still here.

Again. Shouldn't be a reset. Even though I personally could live with it, and so prolly some other vets as well. But again, I don't think a full reset is the solution.

- vets are not a "problem". its often the other way around. they help new players a lot, just as you saw at the post in this topic from a new player.

Nope. They aren't a problem. What is a problem is the system that they choose to use to "level" in this game. Most vets and peeps in Perp are some rly cool cats. No doubt about that.

there is no gain with a ep reset or closing gap mechanic. it might look as a solution in short term, but it will change nothing on the long term and only make things worse. not if you dont change the core game with ep/min.

Here I personally think otherwise. As I've said several times in this thread. Why not give something like this a shot? Nothing bad can come from it. We would be back to square one IF more peeps don't show up.

Zort

Thx for the response Zort. I put my anwers into your text. Bolded.

Re: The GAP...

Don't waste your time, Devs are never going to close EP gap, players get enough EP to start the game and have fun.
The Gap is game knowledge and PVP skill. You can specialize and catch up easily. No 'I want it now crowd' will ever like perpetuum in the long term anyways.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: The GAP...

Celebro wrote:

Don't waste your time, Devs are never going to close EP gap, players get enough EP to start the game and have fun.
The Gap is game knowledge and PVP skill. You can specialize and catch up easily. No 'I want it now crowd' will ever like perpetuum in the long term anyways.

What we suggest doesn't close the GAP. It shrinks it alittle. And makes new players feel good bout themselves and stay with the game longer. Make the early gameplay more fun for them. How can that be bad for the game? I don't say it's the ONLY solution. But it will at least make some stay. So why not do it?

Re: The GAP...

Why not give every player 100B Nic too, that will make them stay.

You don't 'gift' players stuff, because you can't buy players. They either like the game or they don't.

If players don't like your game then you improve it by changing mechanics.

Your idea of changing the EP per minute mechanic is valid way to address what you see as an issue in the game, just know that it's the BASE concept of the game, and you're going to have to work very hard to come up with a replacement idea. Don't expect the Dev's to willingly just redesign the whole game on a suggestion that it needs it, but if you can actually produce a solution/concept that is better and works with the rest of the game mechanics they would probably look at it seriously. However I wouldn't expect them to redesign the game from the ground up before Steam launch.

Re: The GAP...

Arga wrote:

Why not give every player 100B Nic too, that will make them stay.

You don't 'gift' players stuff, because you can't buy players. They either like the game or they don't.

If players don't like your game then you improve it by changing mechanics.

Your idea of changing the EP per minute mechanic is valid way to address what you see as an issue in the game, just know that it's the BASE concept of the game, and you're going to have to work very hard to come up with a replacement idea. Don't expect the Dev's to willingly just redesign the whole game on a suggestion that it needs it, but if you can actually produce a solution/concept that is better and works with the rest of the game mechanics they would probably look at it seriously. However I wouldn't expect them to redesign the game from the ground up before Steam launch.

I think Indas suggestion wouldn't be to hard to implement at all. You'll just get said EP depending on how much EP you have when the change is done. Vets with 2k+ EP for the most part won't care. But the new players will get alittle more EP per minute from the get go, and get things moving faster for them early on. It's just taking the system they have, and tweak it into a better, or rather more new player friendly system.

Re: The GAP...

Temporary EP boosts are gifts, not improved game mechanics.

Re: The GAP...

Arga wrote:

Temporary EP boosts are gifts, not improved game mechanics.

No, cause they will have to stay with the game to get them. It's not a instant EP-boost.

Re: The GAP...

When my cable company offered me the premium channels for 1 year at special price of $50 I took it, and after the year I told them I was going to cancel if they didn't extend it, which they did because they didn't want to lose me.

When that EP starts dropping from 3 to 2 EP per minute, those players will feel like they are 'losing' something, it's human nature.

1 time incentives may be a way to entice people to a dying game, but the whole concept of GAP is based on Themepark games with level caps and instant PVP fixed sized battle games like DOTA.

Re: The GAP...

Arga wrote:

When my cable company offered me the premium channels for 1 year at special price of $50 I took it, and after the year I told them I was going to cancel if they didn't extend it, which they did because they didn't want to lose me.

When that EP starts dropping from 3 to 2 EP per minute, those players will feel like they are 'losing' something, it's human nature.

1 time incentives may be a way to entice people to a dying game, but the whole concept of GAP is based on Themepark games with level caps and instant PVP fixed sized battle games like DOTA.

The "GAP" in my view pertains to the amount of time one must perform to get back on their feet after a loss. When I go in to combat I can field the right tool for ANY combat situation with my accounts/EP/Assets. Should I lose this endevor it would take me less a few hours if that to recoup the loss if I even felt the need to instead of just grabbing a new one from my 'pile' of existing assets.

New players need to focus on attaining proper use of 1 role to excel in PO quickly with a account with their EP and for most this first role is not a very large money maker to fuel their endeavors. Couple this with the fact that I am the average player waiting for them in the first PvP zone there is QUITE a 'GAP'.

Most of the new-players I interacted with that came in-mass to PO were vet resistant and this only drove to their in-game problems to be exaggerated.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

71 (edited by Aaron Sool 2014-01-09 18:53:48)

Re: The GAP...

Arga wrote:

When my cable company offered me the premium channels for 1 year at special price of $50 I took it, and after the year I told them I was going to cancel if they didn't extend it, which they did because they didn't want to lose me.

When that EP starts dropping from 3 to 2 EP per minute, those players will feel like they are 'losing' something, it's human nature.

1 time incentives may be a way to entice people to a dying game, but the whole concept of GAP is based on Themepark games with level caps and instant PVP fixed sized battle games like DOTA.

This wouldn't be a "offer". This would be a change to the EP-system. That would benefit new players. Don't think any new player would complain to it compared to what they would get now...

Re: The GAP...

Lemon wrote:

Most of the new-players I interacted with that came in-mass to PO were vet resistant and this only drove to their in-game problems to be exaggerated.

Absolutely. Some players come into Perp and want to become the Dread Pirate Roberts, the most fearsome solo PVP player to ever set metal plates on Nia! Or to single handedly take over the market... on the first day.

Re: The GAP...

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

- new players can catch up in a resonable amount of time!

Stuff

They can't or won't, otherwise there would be actually some people and corps playing this game instead of 10-20 guys multiboxing a bunch of accounts.

3 years of burying head in sand, pretending everyone in the world wants to play PO and Steam will fix everything is NOT a solution.

What's the most common excuse people have against playing EVE? Don't want to be forever behind. And you think they'll come play a budget-version of EVE so 10-20 of us can kick them around like used condoms? Wake up pls.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: The GAP...

Norrdec wrote:
Zortarg Calltar wrote:

- new players can catch up in a resonable amount of time!

Stuff

They can't or won't, otherwise there would be actually some people and corps playing this game instead of 10-20 guys multiboxing a bunch of accounts.

3 years of burying head in sand, pretending everyone in the world wants to play PO and Steam will fix everything is NOT a solution.

What's the most common excuse people have against playing EVE? Don't want to be forever behind. And you think they'll come play a budget-version of EVE so 10-20 of us can kick them around like used condoms? Wake up pls.

the so called gap is not the problem. i doubt that the ep difference will be a big issue for a lot ppl. everybody who plays a time based progression system knows how it works. if you dont like that then you dont play these kind of games.

the main problem lies in 2 things:
- content
- advertisement

these are the problems of the game. not a gap. you will not get 2000 more players because you shorten the gap, that will basicly be gone in 3 months playtime anyway.
multiboxing is another issue but i think that is addessed in a different topic atm.

Re: The GAP...

DON'T... TOUCH... EP-System...