1 Topic by Hunter (edited by Hunter 2011-09-08 11:01:36)

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Topic: Need rollback.

sorry for google translate.

So guys... It is obvious that the game is broken because disbalance. You can look at on-line or discussions. People are not play. Drama on the forum. To beta players and corporations are not interested play in such conditions. Only the Pirates were happy to change, but soon will become bored for them too. And then will leave last people. I suggest rollback. It's necessary to fully restore the functional of defense. I mean work armor tunings and ERP.

Dear developers, if you want to game live, do not kill the concept of combat.

There is a triangle between the races in the game. There must also be a triangles between classes and between the combat aspects:

Attack:
Fast/DPS aspect. Must be very strong against the siege, but vulnerable against the defense aspekt. Main advantages - speed, firepower. The main disadvantages - a very weak armor. Low combat-range.

Defence:
It is very slow, but very survivable aspect. Should be almost invulnerable against attack aspekt, but weak against siege. Main benefits - armor and firepower. The main disadvantage - very slow. Middle distance of combat.

Siege:
It must be fast enough units with high firepower and long range combat. Should work very well against the defence robots, but to be vulnerable against attack aspekt.

Now it is very well developed aspects of attack and siege. Aspect of defense dead.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...
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Re: Need rollback.

Hunter wrote:

Defence:
It is very slow, but very survivable aspect. Should be almost invulnerable against attack aspekt, but weak against siege. Main benefits - armor and firepower. The main disadvantage - very slow. Middle distance of combat.

i have marked the main issue - firepower and active tank in one bot should not work together.
short range firepower, yes - medium range firepower, no.

to accomplish that: Armor plates and Heavy Mech hitpoints need a grand boost.
then you got your "Tank" that is prone to siege, but survives "Assault"

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

3 Reply by Alexander (edited by Alexander 2011-09-08 07:18:37)

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Re: Need rollback.

Everyone wants the game to be slightly different because of "Their" vision but this is the devs game and the devs vision.

The main reason people are PvPing? There is no point? If there was an invasion if your home and the other people looked a bit tougher would you just give up and live in a box or would you try and rally together, knowing you might die but want to go out trying because you're dead if you don't an probably dead if you do.

The game is no so inbalanced as it is just missing content. People focus on the impossible when bored.

There are many "Could be done like this" and "Should be better" but at the end of it all it';s because you can't be bothered to play with the content available.

Changing a few tweets to tanking and PvP engagements won't magically create a reason to PvP. Even Intrusion 2.0 is too late to make a real difference..

The devs used to be proactive and now they're reactive. THIS is the reason things are so bad right now.

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Re: Need rollback.

Annihilator wrote:
Hunter wrote:

Defence:
It is very slow, but very survivable aspect. Should be almost invulnerable against attack aspekt, but weak against siege. Main benefits - armor and firepower. The main disadvantage - very slow. Middle distance of combat.

i have marked the main issue - firepower and active tank in one bot should not work together.
short range firepower, yes - medium range firepower, no.

Good correction.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...
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Re: Need rollback.

Good pvp should have good foundation. Current paperbot pvp could not provide full ballancing between different specialised groups.
Simple example:
How much cost a heavy, what was designed to hold a fire? I mean fully t4 erp tank. Around 50m?
How much cos a group of t1 lights, what capable to kill it with pure dps (without ecm, neuts etc.) around 5-10m?

So, to have efficiency 5:1 to the anti-type (pure dps over pure tank) you need to spend 1:5 resources.

Wow, nice....

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Re: Need rollback.

Alexander wrote:

You want godlike robots able to crush each other if they are in a superior force but also withstand large amounts of damage single handedly. If you're unable to see why that is a bad idea then this game is doomed. Well that's if the balance guys even bother to read these forums any more with the amount of TERRIBLE ideas on them.

Alex you overreacting
Hunter proposed to make shortrange and slow tanks what you will be able to kill with longrange specialized force.

I quoted it:

Hunter wrote:

Defence:
It is very slow, but very survivable aspect. Should be almost invulnerable against attack aspekt, but weak against siege. Main benefits - armor and firepower. The main disadvantage - very slow. Middle distance of combat.

Imo this is a good suggestion. Will summarise what Hunter wants to say:

Near the seismic, kinetic and thermal triangle the tank, range, speed triangle should have place also. Currently, tank side was nerfed without any reasons.

Again: erp tanks was awesome - they could tank alot of damage, but they was blind. Blind so much, and vulnerable to t1 dps+ew group but well defended against pure DPS. Currently tanks unreasonable vulnerable to a cheap DPS group.

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Re: Need rollback.

Is it standard chaos recruitment policy to only allow paranoid whiners in who dont have a clue what they are talking about?

ERP tank was overpowered, everyone accepted that, except those that were exploiting it

Hence why all your arguments just sound like butthurt because you had your overpowered toys taken away.

Why don’t you just STFU for a bit and allow the devs to review their changes and see if they did it right rather than as soon as you get ‘fixed’ start a campaign of whining on the forums, because obviously that sort of thing will really help lol

To head off the usual Chaos response to anything they don’t like

1)    No, I don’t talk to devs on skype, in fact they mostly ignore me.  I believe that only Alexander and Styx did that and they aren’t in M2S (I could be wrong but maybe you can start up a conspiracy theory around NeX now?)
2)    No, I didn’t personally cheat
3)    No, I don’t condone cheating
4)    No, I’m not a murderer in real life just because I blow peoples robots up contrary to what Alexadar believes
5)    Yes, I genuinely did believe Styx
6)    Yes, I do mine and farm
7)    No, we didn’t reset a proto account, that was an individual who left the game
8)    Yes, I do enjoy crushing my enemies
9)    No, I never intentionally try to grind anyone out of the game unlike Novablob

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Re: Need rollback.

the questions is - how does it scale with multiple agents:

if 5 cheap assault bots can kill a single expensive heavy mech with ease, how does it scale if you increase the number of heavy mechs? Even with low DPS, there is a rather low critical number of heavy mechs you need to insta-gib any incomming assault bot one-by-one, while maintaining tanking capability.

the self-repair speed of such a ERP tanked heavy mech squad was far to high, and that was the reason why the repair tunings have been nerfed.

Active tanking needs to have a rather narrow limit. shields are well "balanced" for that, because you have to choose between "dealing damage" or "mitigating damage". you cannot do both at the same time (without excessive micromanagement)
The fail point of active shield tanking is the accumulator recharge formula (peak at 50%) and that shields are bound to that.
(actually, i would be REALLY happy if i could somehow quarter my seth's accu-size and the recharge time with a module)

Buffer tanking doesn't work quite well with armor plates, because the 1.5 k amor per plate isn't really extending your robots lifetime - if not combined with resists, which costs another legslots that i cannot put a plate into it...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

9 Reply by Alexadar (edited by Alexadar 2011-09-08 12:15:49)

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Re: Need rollback.

Annihilator wrote:

the self-repair speed of such a ERP tanked heavy mech squad was far to high, and that was the reason why the repair tunings have been nerfed.

If you talking true, i should admit this is a most unreasonable nerf i seen ever.

[tested]
For example to kill N number of ERP gang, you should take N/3 ictuses (WOHOOO blob!), N*2/3 -1 DPS and 1 vagabond. Your speed should be around 60. Working even against erp kains.

To kill gang of erp tank you should take Engeneering+DPS or EW+DPS, not pure DPS...

Am i wrong?

[edited]

As you can see chaos not wining "you took our uber-1shotpewpewtool". If we wining, then  we wining to return good ballance.

Hunter idea balanced too, where all player able to kill any of player. He just proposed to add new tactically ballanced side. Not overpowered with speed\dps factor. Whats wrong with this nice proposal?

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10 Reply by Kamikazie (edited by Kamikazie 2011-09-08 14:47:15)

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Re: Need rollback.

No the fact this post came today after they got face rolled the past two nights on their island is no coincidence. They can't deal in even numbers vs 62nds piracy. However for the sake of entertaining the argument I will as we just had this last night. You want survivability to your me hand heavy mechs so you can just gank and not die, the erp coupled with sitting on a teleporter gave you that. Just jump out when it gets too hot and come back later when your repaired. Shield tanksare just as strong as an erp was te only difference is that shields could do dmg or they could stop dmg not both. While it is true ewar can sit behind a shield and ewar you they all use large sums of accum doing it ad shooting the shield will eventually fall under focused fire. Your ERP tanks didn't have to choose, you sat there dishing out the damage and loling as you were unkillable unless we brought half a dozen ictus and vagabonds to jam and drain your gang of them. No other setup requires that to kill a gang. Shields will just run out of accum, he may have to run out of energy charges first or break his peak recharge but hell go down to a roaming gang and the speed guys have a lwf on so if you can dmob them they are toast. Plate fit with resists just eat through his buffer and he will die. The problem of why chaos/cir/et all want the ERP back is it was Op and required no skill or real tactics to use. Note when I say skill I don't mean EP. I mean actual ability to play the game and use the muscle that counts

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Re: Need rollback.

Look @ here, Sundial... Here says it all.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

12 Reply by Alexander (edited by Alexander 2011-09-08 15:58:20)

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Re: Need rollback.

Hunter wrote:
Alexander wrote:

You want godlike robots able to crush each other if they are in a superior force but also withstand large amounts of damage single handedly.

It was godlike only for you, noob (t1) smile

I must admit that I am probably one of the few people in NEX that when I did PvP I used T2+ gear. However being in a gang of mostly T1 and some T2 fitted lights and assaults (Remember new players are limited by not having all extensions level 5+) it was deemed a waste until further advancement was made.

So no ERP was not "Godlike" it was very good. What I am hearing is that the game is imbalanced and that is the reason you don't enjoy the game. But the current balanced is pretty damn good. Mechs have less armour than I expected but more won't make a difference.

Think about the different types of people that play the game:

  • Small gangs of lights

  • Large gangs of lights

  • Small mixed gang

  • Large mixed gang

Every fundamental change you suggest to the game needs to consider all of the above groups and more.. If you don't do that you'll get more game imbalance.

Problem with the game?
Content..

PEOPLE..

And you're one of them..

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Re: Need rollback.

Thank you for your input. Online was not went up after erp nerf. People stopped to use ERP and online still decreasing. Can you make conclusion after previous consequence of statements?

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14 Reply by Alexander (edited by Alexander 2011-09-08 16:16:35)

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Re: Need rollback.

Alexadar wrote:

Thank you for your input. Online was not went up after erp nerf. People stopped to use ERP and online still decreasing. Can you make conclusion after previous consequence of statements?

So what you're saying is that the ERP change caused people to stop playing.

What were they DOING with these ERP plates? Does fitting one spawn new islands and better content? yikes

I still stand by what I was saying before.
New players are being advised NOT to start playing by grumpy older players.
Older players are grumpy because they're run out of Content to play with.

Do you disagree?

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Re: Need rollback.

The game needs more content, that's about all there is to it. Until we have more definitive tools to 'create empires', PvP will die. It's already starting to turn in to a hissy fit of uselessness. Group A fights Group B and nothing is accomplished aside flaming and trolling both ways. Eventually, those fun roams are going to be related to nothing more than petty ego inflation and people will wander off to do more meaningful things with their time. We're already seeing this. People fight in game, then they fight in chat, followed by the thread trolling the next day after and nothing happens of any significance in game. Everything is it's same old static self, minus a few bots and modules, with someone left wondering what the hell is the point of putting up with all the *** talking just to see it happen all over again the next day with little variance?

All the balances, the nerfs, the patches, the grudges, the wars; They mean nothing. The general setting of the community has turned from respectable and growing, to a smaller group left with nothing but petty squabbling over every fight, chat and thread. This game needs those end game territorial systems in place to quell the bordeom before this community basically consumes itself and it needs them yesterday.

Take the long way around back to square one
Today we're just outlaws out on the run
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Re: Need rollback.

Alexadar wrote:

Good pvp should have good foundation. Current paperbot pvp could not provide full ballancing between different specialised groups.
Simple example:
How much cost a heavy, what was designed to hold a fire? I mean fully t4 erp tank. Around 50m?
How much cos a group of t1 lights, what capable to kill it with pure dps (without ecm, neuts etc.) around 5-10m?

.

You don't make sense, the lights lacking ewar would get blown up instantly. However if the lights had other ewar pilots ( ECM + Supressor + neut ), then the heavy mech will go down. If he's dumb enough to be caught out by himself, he should be dead.

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Re: Need rollback.

Grim Faust wrote:

The game needs more content, that's about all there is to it. Until we have more definitive tools to 'create empires', PvP will die. It's already starting to turn in to a hissy fit of uselessness. Group A fights Group B and nothing is accomplished aside flaming and trolling both ways. Eventually, those fun roams are going to be related to nothing more than petty ego inflation and people will wander off to do more meaningful things with their time. We're already seeing this. People fight in game, then they fight in chat, followed by the thread trolling the next day after and nothing happens of any significance in game. Everything is it's same old static self, minus a few bots and modules, with someone left wondering what the hell is the point of putting up with all the *** talking just to see it happen all over again the next day with little variance?

All the balances, the nerfs, the patches, the grudges, the wars; They mean nothing. The general setting of the community has turned from respectable and growing, to a smaller group left with nothing but petty squabbling over every fight, chat and thread. This game needs those end game territorial systems in place to quell the bordeom before this community basically consumes itself and it needs them yesterday.

Preaching to the choir Brother!
Ohhh lorddddyyy! A'MEN!

18 Reply by Mara Kaid (edited by Mara Kaid 2011-09-08 16:19:11)

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Re: Need rollback.

I agree with content, helping attract people.  The game still has very good tanks, and it's up to others to try to use them.

I apologize if we bring vagabonds/ictus's/zeniths with our dps to balance things.I know chaos does this in their fleet, and I know when we kill a heavy mech in battle using them and coordination, it is bad.

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19 Reply by Alexadar (edited by Alexadar 2011-09-08 16:35:55)

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Re: Need rollback.

Alexander wrote:
Alexadar wrote:

Thank you for your input. Online was not went up after erp nerf. People stopped to use ERP and online still decreasing. Can you make conclusion after previous consequence of statements?

So what you're saying is that the ERP change caused people to stop playing.

No. I meant that ERP nerf didnt stopped decreasing of population. Conclusion => that was unnecessary change.

Do you disagree?

2 GrimFaust

Yes, you have a point. As we can see all patches didn't stabilized decrease of online.

2 MaraKaid

You don't make sense, the lights lacking ewar would get blown up instantly.

Calculate how many lights with guns you can make for a resources what is required for erp tank, collect this zerg and you can kill now even 2 of erp tanks. With few looses.

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20 Reply by Mara Kaid (edited by Mara Kaid 2011-09-08 18:34:49)

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Re: Need rollback.

Alexadar wrote:

Calculate how many lights with guns you can make for a resources what is required for erp tank, collect this zerg and you can kill now even 2 of erp tanks. With few looses.

I really disagree without ewar support the heavies just start killing tons of lights at a very fast speed. I went against a heavy, and unless he's locked down by ewar/supress, he just insta pops lights with 2 -4 sec lock time. We've verified it in field.

I am visioning like hunter in erp mesmer, with support of RSA ( remote sensor amplifiers )

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Re: Need rollback.

Hey Alexander, I'm always t2 fit with t3/t4 frame these days. So are most of the rest of our guys now.

I'll even log in tonight to prove it! How you like dat?!

Alexadar wrote:

No. I meant that ERP nerf didnt stopped decreasing of population. Conclusion => that was unnecessary change.

Do you disagree?

Wow that's hilariously dumb. You do realize that most people don't have or use ERPs, right?

I'm not even going to get into the wrongly assumed causation aspect there. Just gonna stick with the sheer inanity of assuming that a bunch of players quitting, mostly alpha to boot, are doing it over a change to ERPs that they probably don't have.

22 Reply by AgY

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Re: Need rollback.

Nobody quit because of ERP.

23 Reply by Hunter (edited by Hunter 2011-09-09 04:15:52)

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Re: Need rollback.

It seems we explain the color of the sky for the blind... Particular joy, when beginners try to insert a few words in this discussion. I wonder, how can you know that not even tried? For example, we have the test results. We know how it actually works. We know what it is. And you? .. You know the ration between the price of equipment and the profit of this robot? Guys... You are really noobs... You died from ERP Tank and think it's an imbalance.

About what can we talk with you? Do you think that you can push on the dev's to change the balance and you won? No, this is not a victory. When old players leave because of permanent changes in rules of the game (while playing), that is defeat of developers.
Tomorrow crowd of newbies come into play (i hope), says it's hard to play and will nerf you.
Instead of choose to progress you go the way complaints and pressure.

Actually here formed harmful impression that it is important to us ERP tanks. This impression could form only at newbies, who started playing recently or those who have short memory.
The fact that I was long opposed an often rebalancing. You can see it here (4example). Guys, you have not mastered the current content. You do not tried to make squads with expensive robots and equip. You never loose anything.

Somebody said of insufficient content. All right. ERP is not content? What is the guarantee that tomorrow will add content and you'll enjoy (if that would be difficult again)? Nerf again?

New huge Islands rescue server? It's funny. No one can hide. If someone finds a miner once, it will check all the time on this spot.

Now on server main rule: Find a miner and kill him. That's it. neutral

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...
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Re: Need rollback.

Hope next patch would remove all t1 fit from game. that would be honest.

Enjoy ur sandbox, and enjoy ur %islandname% while u can.

25 Reply by Alexander (edited by Alexander 2011-09-09 07:23:49)

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Re: Need rollback.

Hunter do you ever read anyone else's suggestions. I guess you probably can't understand them but everything you'e whining about has been discussed to the ends of the earth.

Mining locations should not be static. Mining should be easier to defend. End game content should be more involved. Blobbing should be one of many options rather than the best way. More robot choices. Customisable robots/slots. Better new player experience.

This thread is just full of whine. I've reread it and I can only assume you're asking that each faction have a engraved balance? Three different damage types and defences that work in rock paper scissors way?

Warcraft 3 much? For that matter Starcraft? Must be popular in Russia.

This thread is depressing me to the point of misery. Just wipe the game and let the Russian balance it. Russia needs a new export now anyway. Maybe Perpetuum can be the new Hockey in Russia?