51

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Thamul wrote:

As long as the MT don't effect gameplay who cares.  Just don't buy it.

I have zero problems with charging real world money for fluff like mech color.

If they add MT that effect gameplay then they either need to remove the monthly fee or I'm gone.

I just think that if those vanity items were crafted by players instead, it would add to the fun of the game.

Plus, look what's happening in Eve actually : there is a "monocle aristocraty" taking form. Those whith monocles troll others etc...

You can tell it does more harm than good to the the community. sad

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

I just think that if those vanity items were crafted by players instead, it would add to the fun of the game.

Plus, look what's happening in Eve actually : there is a "monocle aristocraty" taking form. Those whith monocles troll others etc...

You can tell it does more harm than good to the the community. sad

I believe RMT fluff items help a game.  First they allow the company to get more money.  If someone wants to pay more for something that has no effect it supports the game I'm playing without affecting me.  Second it tends to prevent cancellation.  It's more investment which makes canceling harder.

For the "monocle aristocraty" you describe to exist it requires the active participation of those without monocles.  They only way the "monocle aristocraty" can exist is if those without acknowledge it.  If you /ignore or mock them then there is no "monocle aristocraty."

I do agree that player created fluff is a great idea and every game should have it.  I see a place for both.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Panthera wrote:
Arga wrote:

My guess is CCP will make a course correction and may pull some of the bittervets back

I doubt it, from a purely business point of view. They are currently burning $8.5 million in cash per year due to Dust and possibly WoD development.

Their problem isn´t burning the money itself. As soon as Dust is released their situation should be a lot better.

They have to pay a loan back in september or october and they don´t have enough money to give it back and pay their other stuff. So they need someone to give them another loan. To look trustworthy they wanted to demonstrate that they have developed  other ways of earning money (Microtransactions. Well, banks only give you loans when you can prove that you don´t need them roll ).

They failed to demonstrate that and they managed to lose subscriptions worth another million a year. So every bank will only tell them "GTFO ***"

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

I believe the robot paint should be player made a should be reasonably expensive. The tokens to apply the paint should be a very small fee $1 and should be gift-able codes like subscription codes are.

55 (edited by Tag 2011-06-29 15:02:34)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Thamul wrote:

I believe RMT fluff items help a game.  First they allow the company to get more money.  If someone wants to pay more for something that has no effect it supports the game I'm playing without affecting me.  Second it tends to prevent cancellation.  It's more investment which makes canceling harder.

Yeah I agree. But I think a P2P MMO should have a business model that allow the company to avoid the use of RMT.

On a personnal note, I would be glad to pay more, like 15/month, if there is no RMT in game. It's my view of "supporting the game company".

Gamers equality is an important gameplay feature imho. That's what makes the great games and the great communities.

For the "monocle aristocraty" you describe to exist it requires the active participation of those without monocles.  They only way the "monocle aristocraty" can exist is if those without acknowledge it.  If you /ignore or mock them then there is no "monocle aristocraty."

My point is, RMT generates divisions inside the community. Even for the small things like a monocle.

Look at the proportion it has taken on the forum and ingame ! Of course you can ignore it, but what's the point to play a MMO if you ignore other players ?

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Tag wrote:
Thamul wrote:

I believe RMT fluff items help a game.  First they allow the company to get more money.  If someone wants to pay more for something that has no effect it supports the game I'm playing without affecting me.  Second it tends to prevent cancellation.  It's more investment which makes canceling harder.

Yeah I agree. But I think a P2P MMO should have a business model that allow the company to avoid the use of RMT.

On a personnal note, I would be glad to pay more, like 15/month, if there is no RMT in game. It's my view of "supporting the game company".

Gamers equality is an important gameplay feature imho. That's what makes the great games and the great communities.

You don't feel equal if your bot isn't pink?

57

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

GLiMPSE wrote:

You don't feel equal if your bot isn't pink?

I am sure people wont. Jealousy is a comon human feeling. And it's often about the dumbest things.

That said, i dont care, really, about the RMT for the paint. I just take the example of what's happening in Eve JUST for a simple-tiny-ugly-futile-monocle.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Tag wrote:
GLiMPSE wrote:

You don't feel equal if your bot isn't pink?

I am sure people wont. Jealousy is a comon human feeling. And it's often about the dumbest things.

That said, i dont care, really, about the RMT for the paint. I just take the example of what's happening in Eve JUST for a simple-tiny-ugly-futile-monocle.

How do you sleep at night knowing that I walk around in a heavy mech and you can't for a month?

I think we both see where this is going -- but I hope we can both agree that vanity items are nothing to worry about...who cares... if you feel you need a pink robot for $1 dollar... you buy a pink robot for $1 dollar....

These same concepts hold true in real life... however in real life, money can also buy power... as stated in perpetuum this will not be the case.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Melor Rend wrote:

Personally I HATE micro transactions in none f2p games. I pay the devs my hard earned cash (3 accounts atm) so they make the game better. Not so they can cherry-pick every new feature that I paid for with my sub and then sell it too me a second time if it can be "monetarized" (spelling?).

Well, thats where your wrong.  I understand why you hate MT but from your comments it stems from a misunderstanding.

The trouble is people want to give themselves a unique look,  but at the same time they also want more content, game play changes, expansions.

An mmo development team uses the subscription to expand the actual game because thats what your paying for.

So the only way to justify paying developers to make stuff that just looks different and doesnt add any gameplay at all is to charge for it!

That way, the people who dont care about looking good and care more about content still get their content and the people that dont mind paying a few quid to look different can do!

The reason why I like MT is because I dont care about vanity in game, and I would be very pissed off if my money was going toward something other than game content that I dont care about.

to me an item shop in a sub game keeps the game updates coming, which is what I want, but also satisfies those who want vanity.

And you should like MT as well, because your subscription is still going towards giving you content and NOT fancy items.  The fancy items are being paid for by people who want them.

60 (edited by Tag 2011-06-29 15:55:02)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

GLiMPSE wrote:

I think we both see where this is going -- but I hope we can both agree that vanity items are nothing to worry about...who cares... if you feel you need a pink robot for $1 dollar... you buy a pink robot for $1 dollar....

These same concepts hold true in real life... however in real life, money can also buy power... as stated in perpetuum this will not be the case.

We both share the same views, really.

But allow me to push things a bit. In a MMO, a social game, power is not only about money or weapons. It can also be about gangs, influence, and... appearance. Like, being seen in a big battlemech just isn't the same as to be seen in a small bot huh ?

How you look is part of what's making the game exciting for many. Even those who wont admit it.

After all, everyone takes time to make his own avatar. Wouldn't it be nice if there was the same option for your mech ? If everyone could make his mech looks "unique" ? Wouldnt you use the option yourself if it was a part of the game ?

In that point of view, RMT for paint could be seen as a "cheat", because it's not as futile as it sounds.

I conceed this reasonning is extreme, but you get my point.

61 (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-06-29 15:46:33)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

As long as it is for vanity I'm fine.
If the price is moderat like the mentioned 1€ for a small mech painting, 2€ for a medium and 3€ for a big one I might even buy one or two wink.

It has no real effect for the game except making it cooler.
Well, big painted Mechs might become primary targets in PvP yarr. But sometimes you might even want it as bait/tank lol.

There are just 2 important points:
- NO, NEVER, FOR NO REASON any "buy to get power" stuff!
- stay realistc with prices. 1€ for a small bot painting ... why not. 10€ ... keep it, no interest.

And wouldn't it be cool for corps to carry a unique fleet painting ? wink
@EvE vets, how many times was it requested, I can't count the topics for it.

62 (edited by Vaneshi SnowCrash 2011-06-29 15:56:28)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Tag wrote:

That said, i dont care, really, about the RMT for the paint. I just take the example of what's happening in Eve JUST for a simple-tiny-ugly-futile-monocle.

What's happening in EVE has to be taken in context.  It's not just the monocle.  CCP has skipped (for years) on 'Midas' the indie expansion, the boot.ini fiasco, the 18 months quote (still has 6 months to run btw), a series of bad and broken expansions, the "no MT in EVE" from 12 months ago and so on.  It's all been simmering on the promise that Incarna will be the one true expansion we've waited for and fix a load of low hanging fruit in the process.  If Incarna had been anywhere near as good as the tech demo's shown all those years ago were then a lot of this wouldn't of been a major problem for the game.  It could have been spinned as a secret indie expansion because hey: player created content's got to be built right?

Keep in mind the majority of EVE's players have nothing to do with the forums, Singularity or Duality and took no part in sucsessive CSM elections. Most don't even have Local and Corp chats visible (and thanks to the 11% NPC corp tax they're now in one-man-bands being utterly single player, thanks CCP derp). The first they knew of Aurum, cash shop & Incarna = Minmatar only CQ was patching and comming face to face with it on release day. 

At which point they then went to the forums to start digging, found the CSM votes that were ignored and such, did the math on how much stuff in cash shop really was then exploded along with the general population.  It's the first time I can remember the eve-o forums actually lagging badly and doing so for two days solid.

Jack Jombardo wrote:

And wouldn't it be cool for corps to carry a unique fleet painting ? wink
@EvE vets, how many times was it requested, I can't count the topics for it.

You mean like the official CCP Trinity demo that had an Iteron with Red Alliance's logo on it's nose?  About erm... 4 farking years give or take.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

A very nice idea would be to allow people to make their own robot skins and upload it on the server for cash. They get a BPO, can sell it to other people for NIC, can share it with their corp and it depends on the artistic skills of the people to  have a great skin, not on RL-money alone.

64 (edited by Tag 2011-06-29 16:01:39)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Tarantoga wrote:

A very nice idea would be to allow people to make their own robot skins and upload it on the server for cash. They get a BPO, can sell it to other people for NIC, can share it with their corp and it depends on the artistic skills of the people to  have a great skin, not on RL-money alone.

Then again, why the RMT ? Why such an option wouldn't be implemented as part of the game, as well as other gameplay features ?

I dont get it.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

I've read every post here and being new to perp but an 07 eve "vet" I see both sides on this one.  MT's in general are a very good thing not only for the players but for the game company itself as well. 

Like someone else stated MT's however few are sold give the company more money to either a. put right back into the game or b. put back into keeping their dev's employed.  Either way that is good for the game, and for the perp vets and us EVE ex-pats.

P2P MT's however should be vanity only for sure and the dev's here have openly stated that yes there may be MT's and that they are planned.  But they've also clearly stated that MT's will under no-circumstances - noway-nohow-never affect gameplay.  Now I may be new here but I am inclined to believe them.  What with their open-door policies, the fact that you know who they are both in game and on the forums, and their willingness to chat with you via PM for 20 minutes about absolutely nothing pertinent to the game.  It is GM's and DEV's like the guys here that don't act like they are GM's and DEV's but more like just a very knowledgable and helpful friend.   It is communication like this, as long as it keeps up, from the GM's and DEV's that (as I told a GM the other day) will go a long way with us eve ex-pats because of the years of constant zero-communication we have endured.

One thing people need to remember is MT's are here -- that is the way games are going both F2P and P2P and nothing we can do about that.  All we can do is urge the game companies not to add in any game-changing MT's and see the outcome of it.  Now in the case of F2P (such as warrock), game-changing items are dime a dozen: premium accounts, better weapons and such... 

Many people want to string CCP up like a goold ol'fashioned lynch mob and thats fine.  But I for one, would like to thank them for what they have done and what they are doing.  Because of their game changing MT's, because of their constant lies, their lack of communication and general lack of respect of its player base it has driven me away and into a game that, at least for now and hopefully a long time to come, the dev's and gm's actually care what I think.  So thanks CCP for all the hell you put me through for the last 4 years and forcing me to find a game with attentive members AND employees.

66 (edited by Tag 2011-06-29 16:29:30)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

It's also in the dev's interest to avoid RMT completly. Especially since the game is a sandbox.

Let me explain quickly :

--> Add a feature that allow the players to personnalize the mechs
--> all the community enjoys it freely
--> the community experiment the feature, share skins, etc...
--> the community attract other players and grows
--> more subscription for the devs

Look at the perfect sandbox example : Minecraft. No RMT whatsoever, more and more free features, HUGE community, and not even a subscription to pay !
I know the difference with a MMO such as PO, but you get my point : a sandbox needs futile features such as "personalize your skin" to live.

If you sell the option, ok there is a quick cash-flow. But the truth is : there is no gain in the long term and it frustrates the 80% gamers who wont pay for the feature.

67 (edited by Tarantoga 2011-06-29 16:33:27)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Tag wrote:
Tarantoga wrote:

A very nice idea would be to allow people to make their own robot skins and upload it on the server for cash. They get a BPO, can sell it to other people for NIC, can share it with their corp and it depends on the artistic skills of the people to  have a great skin, not on RL-money alone.

Then again, why the RMT ? Why such an option wouldn't be implemented as part of the game, as well as other gameplay features ?

I dont get it.

IMHO it would be one of the few legitimate uses of RMT:

- The skins must be transferred to all clients. So once a day/week an update is necessery what consumes manpower. Or you transfer them while playing what causes more traffic and lag. This wouldn´t work in EVE with 50k players in one shard but with 500-1000 there should be no problems

- You really don´t want every 12-year old with MS-paint to spam the Perp-Community with his "artworks" of pink ***. And if he does, let him at least give a lot of money to the company that runs the game, so we get quick servers and a good support for the cost of a little eye-cancer.

- This feature would implement a possibility of earning extra NIC ingame as a "paintjob designer". I have no problem if it costs a little fee, as long as the price stays reasonable.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

The only reason it should frustrate any of the gamers who wont pay for the optional feature, is if it became game-changing.  a Non vanity item such as changing your mech color is of no importance to the game, other than for pure vanity and asthetic value to the player behind the mech.

What it does do, is it gives that player behind the pink/blue/green/gold/chartreuse mech a little individualism which helps to further their own immersion into the game.  And as I stated before, the few (maybe 20% of the perp population right now) who would pay for the vanity colors helps increase the cash-flow for the company which helps them to expand both the functionality of the client as well as upgrading servers to a more robust server.

So where we are paying 9.95 a month to play this game, having a few MT items for colors or other vanity items (even a monocle for your mech)-- especially where-in the dev's here has described the difference of MT being that you will have to interract with the game in order to utilize the MT -- isn't necessarily a bad thing that people portray MT's to be but in the grand scheme of things even if the game company only makes say 500 USD per month of their MT's (or 93,614 HUF - being as PERP is based in hungary) that is quite a lot of $$$ for them to put right back into the game to make it better, and even helps to create more jobs in hungary for further dev's which in-turn makes the game better. 

So MT's make the game better any way you look at it, as long as it remains a vanity-item shop.

69

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Slavyn Liko wrote:

The only reason it should frustrate any of the gamers who wont pay for the optional feature, is if it became game-changing.

The human nature dont work like that. Sandbox, even more than every other type of game, is about experimenting. You want to test everything the games offer.

Slavyn Liko wrote:

What it does do, is it gives that player behind the pink/blue/green/gold/chartreuse mech a little individualism which helps to further their own immersion into the game.

And that dont help the community to bound together.

Slavyn Liko wrote:

And as I stated before, the few (maybe 20% of the perp population right now) who would pay for the vanity colors helps increase the cash-flow for the company which helps them to expand both the functionality of the client as well as upgrading servers to a more robust server.

If you think long term, that's a fail strategy. I know the modern management is all about quick cash. But really, if you seek for succefull games, there stand only the ones that made the community choice instead.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

But to be against MT even vanity-item only MT's just for the sake of being against it is also a flawed thought process.  While I see both the down-sides and the upsides to MT's, I have not chosen to purchase any cash items as of yet in any game that had MT's.  That is not to say that I wouldnt in the future.

But to even have a community, each individual player has to be immersed in the game on their own personal level and if it takes having a pink mech than bring it on.

I'd rather have someone next to me fighting in a pink mech who is immersed in the game both as an individual and as part of the community whole than someone who is just going through the motions because its what they learned to do.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

I hope the Dev's here have considered stuff about custom Mech skins that was pointed out to CCP about custom ship skins:

If someone can make it totally transparent to sneak up on someone else they will (not that applicable with Overview/Landmarks but still possibly quite nasty).
If someone figures out how to make an infinite lag generator skin they both will and will use it in PvP. 
If someone can make a :rage: inducing skin so the other player CNTRL+Q's out of the fight in disgust, they will make it.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Vaneshi SnowCrash wrote:

I hope the Dev's here have considered stuff about custom Mech skins that was pointed out to CCP about custom ship skins:

If someone can make it totally transparent to sneak up on someone else they will (not that applicable with Overview/Landmarks but still possibly quite nasty).
If someone figures out how to make an infinite lag generator skin they both will and will use it in PvP. 
If someone can make a :rage: inducing skin so the other player CNTRL+Q's out of the fight in disgust, they will make it.


Yeah and I haven't read anything about 'custom skins' being able to be made via MT or anything like that though a few people have suggested it.  But like you've pointed out here that could open up the game for a few exploits and nastry-grams.  On top of that with all us eve players coming over here, if there was a custom skin generation option, you know it would be an eve player to figure out how to use it to his advantage first -- that is afterall what we were groomed to do in eve's pvp scene..  build it, buy-it, expose it, and prevail.

All that I have seen that they have planned in MT here, is the ability to change the mech colors (solid colors only i believe -- although a metallic pink or pearl blue would be nice)...

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

We've also talked about putting corp logos on bots as well as on the side of buildings. The hang up here is I have demanded the ability to tag my enemy before I kill them, which has set the technical barrier a little higher...

But, yes. They are looking at ways to put the Corp logo on bots, billboard type things, and probably bunnies; if you can find one.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Yeah corp logo's on bots I'd imagine could be a fairly difficult task to complete.  Unless of course they utilize the same type of numbering system that eve does where all images are issued a number and in the database it makes a call to the proper image based on that number to display....

Now tagging an enemy before you kill them, i'd like to hear more about this proposed feature of yours.  I am intrigued and you have me on the line smile

75 (edited by Tag 2011-06-29 17:44:37)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

To sum up what i think about RMT :

If it’s about money : rise the subscription fee. The P2P business model is more than viable if you rely on the community.

If it’s about giving some players privileges, I thinks it’s highly harmful to the community and the fun.

Really I insist about the « community » idea, since for me, it’s all that really matter.

Understand that it's not a "oldschool" or butthurt thing. It's really about cohesion, emulation. If I understood something in my MMO experience, it's that a community is a fragile thing, but it's really worth protecting.

On another note, I think all the ideas brought by Tarantoga are pretty awesome, if they are implemented as a free feature.

As for the exploit possibilities : devs have to be careful about it, just like any other features…