Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

How much do I have to pay to put a monocle on each eye of my bot?

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

DEV Zoom wrote:
Evangel wrote:

But, you probably read my comment below as well and I still say that it's bad, really bad timing and suggest you delay the MT portion of that patch and let these EVE expats get settled in first.  Not all of them read the forums or DEV blogs and won't even know about it till it hits the server.

Yes sorry, my post was meant for those who asked about non-vanity MT.

As for the timing, I think my previous comment on the devblog explained that:

It's not like we want to push it out next week. We announced it now so it can boil down enough and we can see the feedback of our players, before we take the step.

Admittedly, in light of those recent events out there, our timing could have been better. However I have promised to write about paintjobs and omitting the MT part would have just created the same future trust issues that those guys are facing now.


Bolded the awesome part. Are you DEvs really real? lol This is what I am really taken with in this game. "see the feedback of our player, BEFORE we take steps". Amazing common sense there.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

From my understanding, the MT part of this comes in making the paint job PERMANENT, so you wont lose those paint tokens if you die, enabling you to repaint your next bot very easily.  Without using MT tokens, you will lose your paint chips on death and have to find/buy new ones to get a new paint job.

Am I correct in this assumption?

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

GLiMPSE wrote:

They have stated clearly on the dev blog that there will be no pay2win.

Perpetuum is Slay2win wink

[14:15:15] <Freya Sabbat> ...Dear god, the Devs are as bad as us

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

DEV Gargaj wrote:
GLiMPSE wrote:

They have stated clearly on the dev blog that there will be no pay2win.

Perpetuum is Slay2win wink

And on Thursdays:  Gay2Win

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Neoxx wrote:

From my understanding, the MT part of this comes in making the paint job PERMANENT, so you wont lose those paint tokens if you die, enabling you to repaint your next bot very easily.  Without using MT tokens, you will lose your paint chips on death and have to find/buy new ones to get a new paint job.

Am I correct in this assumption?

Not quite, the MT item would be consumed upon finalizing the paint. So when you lose your robot the paint will be lost with it. But the plan is to accommodate our pricing structure to fit this mechanic.

32 (edited by Neoxx 2011-06-28 03:50:16)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

DEV Zoom wrote:
Neoxx wrote:

From my understanding, the MT part of this comes in making the paint job PERMANENT, so you wont lose those paint tokens if you die, enabling you to repaint your next bot very easily.  Without using MT tokens, you will lose your paint chips on death and have to find/buy new ones to get a new paint job.

Am I correct in this assumption?

Not quite, the MT item would be consumed upon finalizing the paint. So when you lose your robot the paint will be lost with it. But the plan is to accommodate our pricing structure to fit this mechanic.

Yes, I understand that the token will apply the paint, but will the paint items be consumed in the process?  And, can you apply the paint any other way?  Like if I just left those paint items on the paint screen when I undocked, would those show on my bot?

I just thought it would be cool if by buying the tokens, you circumvented the consumption of the paint items, so if you got blown up you could reapply those same colors easily without having to find/buy them again.  So the tokens wouldnt be the ability to apply paint, but to preserve the paint items for multiple uses.

Either way, I'm sure I'll be buying some!

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Neoxx wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:
Neoxx wrote:

From my understanding, the MT part of this comes in making the paint job PERMANENT, so you wont lose those paint tokens if you die, enabling you to repaint your next bot very easily.  Without using MT tokens, you will lose your paint chips on death and have to find/buy new ones to get a new paint job.

Am I correct in this assumption?

Not quite, the MT item would be consumed upon finalizing the paint. So when you lose your robot the paint will be lost with it. But the plan is to accommodate our pricing structure to fit this mechanic.

Yes, I understand that the token will apply the paint, but will the paint items be consumed in the process?  And, can you apply the paint any other way?  Like if I just left those paint items on the paint screen when I undocked, would those show on my bot?

I just thought it would be cool if by buying the tokens, you circumvented the consumption of the paint items, so if you got blown up you could reapply those same colors easily without having to find/buy them again.  So the tokens wouldnt be the ability to apply paint, but to preserve the paint items for multiple uses.

Either way, I'm sure I'll be buying some!

To me this is how I interpret it:

Let's say you buy 5 tokens. You paint your mech (leaving 4 tokens) and go pvping or ratting. And... You die.

Since you have 4 tokens left - you paint your mech again and do the same thing. Because you suck - you die again. And again. And again. And again.

By now you have no more tokens - So you need to buy (RMT) 5 more tokens to paint your mech.

Pretty sure this is what they mean. And because you suck they will make the paint tokens relatively inexpensive so you can buy more of em smile

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Well, I know what the tokens do, but what I'm bummed about is that there will be NO way to paint it without paying for tokens.  Id like to be able to paint the bot with a risk of losing those paints, or buying a token that applied said paint job but spared the paints to be used again when I die.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

It will probably never come to this... sad

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

I certainly hope not, because then the mesmer will look even more smug than it already does.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Personally I really have no problems with MT. 

MT have brought to life a few of my favorite games and I'm more than willing to treat myself to a few nice items. 

My favorite shooter is APB and thats been resurected out of the ashes due to MT, lotro was my favorite RPG mmo and thats benefited hugly!

So long as the shop and the items you can buy are in good taste! a reasonable price and purly optional.

What CCP have done is prostitute themselves from the outset when they really didn't need to, if a game is suffering and needs an item shop support, fair enough, but to throw one in just to squeeze your customers is wrong.

I'd actually support an item shop in PO,  customised paint jobs on robots or outposts, guns which look different or have different sound / lighting effects or corp logo's on bots.. these things would be awesome!  Especially if you could grind in-game money to help pay for them.

Sad thing is, if Eve would have put vanity items in which effects their ships.. and not the new avatars, it would be a huge success.

38 (edited by Melor Rend 2011-06-28 14:52:39)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Personally I HATE micro transactions in none f2p games. I pay the devs my hard earned cash (3 accounts atm) so they make the game better. Not so they can cherry-pick every new feature that I paid for with my sub and then sell it too me a second time if it can be "monetarized" (spelling?).

That is simply wrong in my eyes. Either my sub pays for the game (including all the features that my sub was used to develop) or you should change your pricing model. Either that or don't waste my sub on developing stuff that I have to pay for a second time.

However, I can live with RMT as long as it's VANITY only and does NOT influence any player driven markets (such as ammo/ships/mods created out of thin air for RL $$$).

I still find it unfair to let me pay your graphics dudes for new skins and then I still have to pay them a second time for every new skin. But I guess I can accept you wasting my money to sell it back to me again as long as I don't feel like i'm being scammed (70$ for a monocle) or as long as I'm not forced to double pay you to remain competitve.


Imho I'd rather pay 3$ more for sub but then get the entire game (and not finance projects/features that i won't benefit from).

Just my 0.2 NIC.

39 (edited by Tarantoga 2011-06-28 17:01:48)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

I wouldn´t worry to much. These are plans, not implemented features. And it was planned before we n-tupled their playerbase.

The Perp-dev are in a quite comfortable situation that they can watch CCP how well it works. Of course they have been looking for new ways to earn money to keep their company going (I don´t think they are having huge profits ATM), but I hope we EVE-ragequitters have flushed some income into their wallets. So the need for new money shouldn´t be so urgent now. If we stay here for longer, they surely don´t want to alienate us with half-baked-plans.

I´m pretty sure, the new robot paintjobs can be sold with NIC too. wink

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

To me Micro transactions say 10p per paint job is acceptable, if I am regularly loosing bots then I should be focusing on my lack of pvp / pve skills and NOT on pretty pink pony's.

What I love about this system and I think very nice is the way the paint system currently works, with your paint slowly degrading as you take damage apply your nice paint scheme and watch it weather as you successfully survive combat.  Of course this will require a respray at some point but well at least you will not have lost your bot.

Can't wait to paint a gropho blue and watch people try to hide just behind a hill expecting direct fire mag guns smile

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

keep it vanity-only and i don't give a rats patoot.

42

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

If I play the "Pay-to-play" type of MMO, it's because I want for every gamers the same chances.

If it's about money, then there is no fun.

If you lack money, rise the subscription fee, but dont force RMT in the game.

That said, I do think painting those mechs would be a cool feature tongue

43 (edited by Vaneshi SnowCrash 2011-06-29 03:23:47)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

It's worth keeping in mind (and this is aimed at Dev's, want to be Dev's and such... except you CCP you can just keep going LALALALA in the corner becuase we went blue in the face trying to explain it to you) that WoW is the exception rather than the rule when it comes to subscription games and microtransactions.

Sparkle pony (and flying derp lion) might well have generated, seemingly insane figures.  $25m USD from what I've read, queues (lol) of people waiting for the transactions to clear.  All very impressive.  All very tempting.

What's not so impressive is the figures behind that. WoW makes about $2B (B as in Billion) a year. That's only 10% of WoW's total subscriber base handing over the cash for those items, if WoW was any other other MMO (and it could be argued that if Blizz had pulled a Richard Bachman then even WoW wouldn't be WoW) then 10% of it's subs buying something would generate nowhere near as much money, press or indeed subsequent PR material. 

WoW's playerbase are also starting to squirm over the nickle and dimeing they see happening (cross-shard dungeons for MT, paid realm shifting, etc), Star Trek Online is a virtual wasteland, apparently, due to excessive microtransactions and yet that 10% figure generally holds true; only 10% of your customers will use the cash shop.

So if a small game like this one, still in its infancy, only has (for aguments sake) 3,000 subscribers... that's at most 300 people willing to buy the PO equivilent of Sparkle Pony.  That figure also drops if you game allows/pushes multiple accounts... people are only going to buy one sparkle pony for their main after all.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

The math there is fairly good, except for one thing, 90% of the player base from a week ago were 300% more dedicated to the game then 10% of any other mmo community. *s*

But seriously, there are no sparkle ponies for sale in Perp, but if Eve'sters hadn't shown up, I would have bet that 90% of the player base would have bought paint jobs, and 100% would use them to make pink bots on thursdays smile

On the other hand, 90% would quit too if they introduced a $25 heavy hauler. Dev's know us almost as well as we know them, we even shared the destruction of the office toaster (my it rest in peace).

Don't take our word for it, just hang out and you'll see for yourselves.

45 (edited by Rodger Wilcoe 2011-06-29 06:51:19)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

I have no problem with vanity micro-transactions at all, in fact I encourage it as an effective way to improve funds while having no impact to the fundamentals of the game.

46 (edited by Panthera 2011-06-29 07:04:25)

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

I can only speak for myself, but I have no problem with MT per se. I actually like the idea of supporting the developer of a game I like and getting something nonconsequential like pink paint in return.

In EVE the situation is a bit different though: A subscription is already one of the most expensive MMO subscriptions, their idea of support seems to be $20-$70 which I find ridiculous, they had previously actually announced plans to have these items made by players, when you call them on it they start rambling about $1000 designer pants, they publicly stated that their implementation of the store is so incomplete that they may have to sell spawned coloured ships until it can do trade-ins, they refuse to answer the non-vanity mt question with a simple yes or no and if they did then there's still that they had actually implemented them before in the form of paid attribute remaps, and the worst part of it is last summer they announced that EVE itself wasn't going to get any major fixes or new content while they work on Dust and WoD and code EVE has in common with them, so we know those monocles actually support their purely mt based and confirmed pay2win games Dust and WoD instead of EVE. Oh yeah and that's only the technical part. There's also those various leaked documents that show clear contempt for the player base, to which they don't even want to talk btw., they preferred to announce a one week comms silence and a meeting with a handful of players who are essentially drinking buddies of the developers on account of regular free trips to Iceland. And as if that wasn't enough it turns out they can still give interviews to newspapers, they just don't want to talk to their players.

In other words they pulled pretty much every single crap move they could come up with and now there's something for everybody to rage about. Had they implemented ship paint to work like EVE's equivalent of the plan in this dev blog, i.e. paint from the LP store and then an mt payment to apply it, I would have a hangar of pink ships now and I think it's a fair guess that most of the rage would not have happened.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

I really can't say that I'm sorry CCP did all that, other then to sympathize with the players and draw huge neon arrows pointing here. smile

My guess is CCP will make a course correction and may pull some of the bittervets back, but Perp's low pop was due mostly to it being unknown, not because it's a bad game. It isn't for everyone though, but I think long term MMO players in general recognize it's potential. So the population will likely keep increasing now regardless of what other MMO's do.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Arga wrote:

My guess is CCP will make a course correction and may pull some of the bittervets back

I doubt it, from a purely business point of view. They are currently burning $8.5 million in cash per year due to Dust and possibly WoD development. Both of these games will be mt based; of Dust we know they've been talking about pay2win in the form of guns you buy and so on. There are just about two possible short term outcomes. One is Dust succeeds, but that will tell them that mt and pay2win is the way to go. The other is Dust fails, but that will mean they're sitting on a huge debt and either need every straw they can cling to to extract more money from their players or find some other way to realize their virtual assets i.e. sell out.

Perp's low pop was due mostly to it being unknown, not because it's a bad game.

For what it's worth, I wanted to check it out when it was released but the lack of a trial at the time scared me away. There was little to no public information about it and no way to find out what the game is like. This has been rectified since, and hence I'm here; maybe I'm not the only one.

49

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

Just some good quotes on this subject, from the Eve forums :

Micro transactions supports a cheap fun mentality, it ruins immersion and shortens a game's life span.

What I seek in a MMO is interactions between players.

RMT is about interacting with the game company.

The more RMT there is in a game, the less interesting it get.

RMT : a way to get things other gamers can't have by exploiting the game's rules.

Cheating : a way to get things other gamers can't have by exploiting the game's rules.

Re: We EVE expats got here just in time for MT on PO

As long as the MT don't effect gameplay who cares.  Just don't buy it.

I have zero problems with charging real world money for fluff like mech color.

If they add MT that effect gameplay then they either need to remove the monthly fee or I'm gone.