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Topic: PvE vs. PvP - the endless discussion

*Edit by Recognizer: Offtopic posts from the PvE content discussion*

Heckle wrote:

Dude, don't say things like 'explain to the rest of us' ... you only represent yourself. 'The rest of us' are more likely to be embarassed with any form of association with you than sharing your views.

Long on unfounded authority huh ... pot, kettle and black springs to mind.

Actually, I'd also be fascinated to learn what you mean. Most times, when people take that approach(forced PvP), its because they want to gank/grief others, and want as many victims as possible.  I'd imagine that the current situation on Alpha makes many such types sad pandas <grin>

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Re: PvE vs. PvP - the endless discussion

Savin wrote:

This is what we were looking for- thank you.

Dromsex wrote:

2. PVE has to be everything - a monotonous grind for the ones only wanting to make credits, a solo-experience and a group experience.

Oh boy.... And who is we? Stop implying your thoughts are more then just yours or be considered a troll.

To realize that the present pve implementation isnt more then a grind takes a second - same goes with the solution - scripted encounters/extended/improved AI behaviour.

But there more missing then that if PO wants to be a sandbox. And this missing sand is more vital then anything else since the required changes would affect the fundamental design and codebase of the game - rather then just some extended scripted events.

Those changes need to come in before anything else otherwise you'd *** up the priorities in the development path.

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Wraithbane wrote:
Heckle wrote:

Dude, don't say things like 'explain to the rest of us' ... you only represent yourself. 'The rest of us' are more likely to be embarassed with any form of association with you than sharing your views.

Long on unfounded authority huh ... pot, kettle and black springs to mind.

Actually, I'd also be fascinated to learn what you mean. Most times, when people take that approach(forced PvP), its because they want to gank/grief others, and want as many victims as possible.  I'd imagine that the current situation on Alpha makes many such types sad pandas <grin>

I doubt that implication. Most pvpers just hate it to play a game where everything is artificially restricted - it makes everything feel like a conterstrike mmo - but this here wants to be a sandbox mmo - so restrictions would need to vanish by definition.

Beta-like pvp on alpha like it is now wouldnt work of course - and it would be boring for most pvpers to attack people who just want to pve - over and over without any difficulty and consequences. Thats why the high sec sectors in eve worked, or guards in neocron or any other example.

If there is no possibility to set up a working guard system here on alpha(possibly AI restrictions) then ok.

But people should be able to flee from beta while flagged - agressors could persuit them - and others (pvers or who ever doesnt want to interfere) wouldnt be affected.

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Re: PvE vs. PvP - the endless discussion

Wraithbane wrote:

[Actually, I'd also be fascinated to learn what you mean. Most times, when people take that approach(forced PvP), its because they want to gank/grief others, and want as many victims as possible.  I'd imagine that the current situation on Alpha makes many such types sad pandas <grin>

I think you are right: forced PvP will turn a lot of players off. And yes, most people want it because they feel a need to ruin other people's game experience, or to force others to play the way they want them to play.

There's no doubt that some people in this game are infuriated that they cannot tear through alpha.

I'm trying to answer your question honestly- I think that PvE could benefit from some more complexity, and I think that's related to the PvP/PvE balance. Right now, PvE seems designed as an adjunct to PvP- most corps are organized on this principle. I think that introducing some new elements to PvE would bring another kind of competition- such as real economic warfare- and would make the PvP elements that more meaningful.

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Dromsex wrote:

I doubt that implication. Most pvpers just hate it to play a game where everything is artificially restricted - it makes everything feel like a conterstrike mmo - but this here wants to be a sandbox mmo - so restrictions would need to vanish by definition.

I'm sorry, but you're making a fallacious argument. If you want to claim that a 'true' sandbox has no restrictions whatsoever, then you're arguing for the impossible- a true student of systems theory would understand this, and know better.

What you describe might be enjoyable for certain bloodthirsty types, but would be unappealing for most others. Moreover, it would be a very one-dimensional game: everyone would be forced to play in exactly the same way, which is fine for you, but I suspect not for the majority.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

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6 Reply by Dromsex (edited by Dromsex 2011-01-22 17:58:40)

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Re: PvE vs. PvP - the endless discussion

Im not talking about no restrictions Savin, you should know that. But not being able to zone with a flag is a very direct and artificial reason which has no evident reasoning.

edit: uhm restriction*

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Dromsex wrote:

FFrom a pvp related point of view:

You talk of griefing as if it was something bad - and pvp was something unrelated to accomplishing your goals or making the goals of your opponent impossible.

To make this coherent again - there cannot be any consensuality. This is contradictory by system. As soon as someone agrees to take losses - there are no losses - as soon as someone doesnt care about dying in this conflict or not being able to achieve his goals - these goals are null making the conflict a farce - since it is not neccesary.

You were saying something about restrictions?

Ok, I'll agree with you that being unable to zone without a flag seems rather pointless.

But other than that, you're still arguing that you should be able to grief whomever you want, whenever you want.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

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8 Reply by Dromsex (edited by Dromsex 2011-01-22 18:17:21)

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Savin wrote:

But other than that, you're still arguing that you should be able to grief whomever you want, whenever you want.

No Savin tongue

Dromsex wrote:

Beta-like pvp on alpha like it is now wouldnt work of course - and it would be boring for most pvpers to attack people who just want to pve - over and over without any difficulty and consequences. Thats why the high sec sectors in eve worked, or guards in neocron or any other example.

If there is no possibility to set up a working guard system here on alpha(possibly AI restrictions) then ok.

But people should be able to flee from beta while flagged - agressors could persuit them - and others (pvers or who ever doesnt want to interfere) wouldnt be affected.

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Dromsex wrote:

If there is no possibility to set up a working guard system here on alpha(possibly AI restrictions) then ok.

This is your solution? Free PvP on Alpha, but 'limited' by guards? Do you honestly think that would keep PvPers from griefing?

But back to the main point: you're arguing for a way to improve PvP, not PvE. I don't think PvEers would stick around for your solution any more than they would for the addition of more NPC bots.

As we've mentioned before, the current PvE system works an adjunct to PvP: if you want to keep PvE players around, exposing it to even more PvP is not the answer. They need something with more depth.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

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Savin wrote:
Dromsex wrote:

If there is no possibility to set up a working guard system here on alpha(possibly AI restrictions) then ok.

This is your solution? Free PvP on Alpha, but 'limited' by guards? Do you honestly think that would keep PvPers from griefing?

But back to the main point: you're arguing for a way to improve PvP, not PvE. I don't think PvEers would stick around for your solution any more than they would for the addition of more NPC bots.

As we've mentioned before, the current PvE system works an adjunct to PvP: if you want to keep PvE players around, exposing it to even more PvP is not the answer. They need something with more depth.

The guards approach has never worked that well historically. Inventive gankers/griefers ALWAYS find some way to game the system. Not to mention that it ends up as an endless arms race between the Dev's and the gankers/griefers, with the CareBears caught in the middle.

It would be FAR better to leave Alpha as it is. It keeps the PvE crowd happy, and it keeps the Dev's from having to allocate their valuable(and limited...) time to protect their business model. 

The only people who would really benefit from changing Alpha are the PvP crowd.  Looking at EVE's demographics(which I suspect hold true here) there are more CareBears than PvP types, and thus more profit potential by keeping them happy.

Let the PvP crowd gank/grief each other to their hearts content on the Betas. But keep the Alphas as they are, so that PvE types can go about their business and enjoy the game in their own fashion.

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

11 Reply by Dromsex (edited by Dromsex 2011-01-22 19:07:32)

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Re: PvE vs. PvP - the endless discussion

Sure, no question about PVE need be improved - whatever that may be.

And yes, if the guard system worked it would be a good solution. But it didnt, i assume or was too easy, prolly becasue of the landscape and means to exploit hideouts and LoS.

-flying guardians could have access to anything - and waste those guys attacking in alpha
-their concentration/response time or strength is biggest at terminals and outposts and slightly decreases in desolated areas
-balancing would need to assure that even large scale pvp raids would need to withdraw with each guardian wave increasing
-it also could be adjusting numbers of guardians increasing drastically by registering the number of pvp flagged players in that area

Theres lots of ways - overall there should be a chance for a prepared attacker to get away when he goes after a not so well prepared player at a place where the guards response time isnt the fastest. There would be safe no not so safe zones. Camping would be mitigated by increasing guardian waves.

I know a couple of games where guard systems worked properly. And no - it wouldnt keep gankers from griefing - sometimes it works for the attacker - more often it doesnt.

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Dromsex wrote:

Sure, no question about PVE need be improved - whatever that may be.

And yes, if the guard system worked it would be a good solution. But it didnt, i assume or was too easy, prolly becasue of the landscape and means to exploit hideouts and LoS.

-flying guardians could have access to anything - and waste those guys attacking in alpha
-their concentration/response time or strength is biggest at terminals and outposts and slightly decreases in desolated areas
-balancing would need to assure that even large scale pvp raids would need to withdraw with each guardian wave increasing
-it also could be adjusting numbers of guardians increasing drastically by registering the number of pvp flagged players in that area

Theres lots of ways - overall there should be a chance for a prepared attacker to get away when he goes after a not so well prepared player at a place where the guards response time isnt the fastest. There would be safe no not so safe zones. Camping would be mitigated by increasing guardian waves.

I know a couple of games where guard systems worked properly. And no - it wouldnt keep gankers from griefing - sometimes it works for the attacker - more often it doesnt.

You are still proposing a solution for a problem that only exists in the minds of the PvP crowd. We CareBears are quite happy with the situation as it currently exists.  We gain nothing from a change, and in fact lose the ability to play in our own fashion. This "challenge" some speak of is not seen as such by many others, who end up the victims of roaming gangs of gankers.

The Dev's also end up in an arms race with the gankers/griefers, which is totally avoidable by simply keeping Alpha as it is.  The guards system has been tried in many, many games. At best, its been something that the gankers have to plan around. It hasn't prevented ganking/griefing.

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Wraithbane wrote:

You are still proposing a solution for a problem that only exists in the minds of the PvP crowd.

Exactly. PvPers tend to have tunnel vision: more combat solves everything, only combat provides a 'real' challenge.

Wraithbane wrote:

We CareBears are quite happy with the situation as it currently exists.  We gain nothing from a change, and in fact lose the ability to play in our own fashion. This "challenge" some speak of is not seen as such by many others, who end up the victims of roaming gangs of gankers.

This is fair, too, except that I think PvE players won't continue to be satisfied unless they see some more benefit from the monotony.

I'm trying to think of things that would connect PvE and PvP without forcing one to do the other; they don't have to inhabit separate realms- why not make the relationship more meaningful?

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

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Just repeating it doesnt make it true Wraith. Guards worked in some games ive played and they made it hard to impossible to be successful in ganking someone in guarded areas.

Just say you dont want it - thats fair.

So if theres a problem for 1 kind of players but not for the other then its ok and fair? Strange logics.

Im neither pve or pve focussed - thats why id like to see a congestion - and it would be a win for both partys.

I actually would like to be ganked when pve'ing without the need to go to a special place to do that. It breaks immersion.

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Dromsex wrote:

Just say you dont want it - thats fair.

Follow your own advice.

Dromsex wrote:

So if theres a problem for 1 kind of players but not for the other then its ok and fair? Strange logics.

What exactly is the problem for PvP players, other than they can't grief people whenever they please?

Dromsex wrote:

I actually would like to be ganked when pve'ing without the need to go to a special place to do that. It breaks immersion.

You're entitled to this opinion, but I doubt that many PvE players will agree.

Once again, you're looking at it from a very shallow, one-sided point of view. Don't tell us you go both ways, because you clearly don't.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

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I'm no ganker/griefer, but I support freedom in pvp. the big problem is the criminal flagging system that makes most open pvp games fail..

forced pvp should allways have huge draw backs to the attacker. harsh punishment for attacking Innocent players, boycots, debuffs after death,. could speculate endless things.

Its getting old seeing eve get compared to this, there really nothing like each other. In eve's first year I used to kill miners in high sec, I was all ways risking a lot doing it. took to many pods an found out the game was mad at me, Make matters worse, people in low sec didn't like me. as a newb I felt like the game abandoned me,. I felt in trouble, it was great,. It had been the first time since Ultima I felt that way,.

The sandbox is like a soul in a person,. its just there,. you cant explain it.

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The problem simply is that its immersion breaking to have some artificial place to go pvp at.

And sure im going both ways. And i doubt the majority of pve players minds a system in which theres a slight possibility for someone else to attack you. I mean hell - even wow has this and it's the most carebare game out. So - who is right now? You assume something and i do. You allege me of speaking for my narrow minded point of view in a way you accuse me of ;D

Btw - i love pvp - when it breaks loose naturaly. I hardly remember any incident in the last 15 years where i went out to gank someone - in 95% i defended myself after being attacked. Why? Dunno - its more fun for me.

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Greenleaf wrote:

forced pvp should allways have huge draw backs to the attacker. harsh punishment for attacking Innocent players, boycots, debuffs after death,. could speculate endless things.

Ok, yes, that's great, but with the EP system, none of these penalties are really such an issue when it comes to a fighter vs. a miner: your fitted assault bot is going to win against my mining bot. To have a chance, I'll have to fit my bot with weapons and spend the EP necessary to use them well enough. In short, you force me to play your game.

It's really that simple: forced PvP still requires the PvE player to play in a fashion he doesn't want.

  • If your goal is to make these players feel welcome, forced PvP is not, cannot be, the answer.

  • If, however, you want the carebears to leave, then by all means force them to PvP.

That will have the added advantage of making your game much simpler, too: you can throw out the whole industry mechanic and have your PvPers exchange loot for better tech.

Now, Dromsex, I'm quite impressed that you've played since you were two years old, but you still don't know a thing about system design, because you can't understand this one simple point. It has nothing to do with 'immersion': you want one thing, and appear to be unable to imagine anything that would not give you what you want.

The original question was: are you satisfied with the current status of PvE? The answer to that question is not 'No, make it easier to grief PvE players.' That is not a PvE solution.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

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Dromsex wrote:

Just repeating it doesnt make it true Wraith. Guards worked in some games ive played and they made it hard to impossible to be successful in ganking someone in guarded areas.

Just say you dont want it - thats fair.

So if theres a problem for 1 kind of players but not for the other then its ok and fair? Strange logics.

Im neither pve or pve focussed - thats why id like to see a congestion - and it would be a win for both partys.

I actually would like to be ganked when pve'ing without the need to go to a special place to do that. It breaks immersion.

As I stated, the guards idea doesn't *prevent* ganking/griefing. Period. I've seen it tried in game after game over years now. The evolution of Concord in EVE, the guards in WoW PvP realms, the guards in Imperial Quest, on and on. It has limited success. It also takes Dev time away from other projects to deal with on going ganker exploits.

You want to be ganked??...<rolls eyes> Ok... If you say so. I would not, and I suspect neither would a lot of other PvE'ers.  Keeping Alpha the way that it is costs the Dev's nothing. Changing it to suit the PvP types could cost them a lot of their player base.  Can they really afford that at this point?

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Dromsex wrote:

The problem simply is that its immersion breaking to have some artificial place to go pvp at.

And sure im going both ways. And i doubt the majority of pve players minds a system in which theres a slight possibility for someone else to attack you. I mean hell - even wow has this and it's the most carebare game out. So - who is right now? You assume something and i do. You allege me of speaking for my narrow minded point of view in a way you accuse me of ;D

Btw - i love pvp - when it breaks loose naturaly. I hardly remember any incident in the last 15 years where i went out to gank someone - in 95% i defended myself after being attacked. Why? Dunno - its more fun for me.

No, the WoW PvE realms do not have that at this point. You simply can NOT be ganked on one of the PvE realms, if you aren't flagged.  I've played the game for more than 6 years(four 85's an 82 and some 60's) on both the PvE and PvP realms. The difference is like night and day.   

Given the goonie mentality, its little surprise that so many people dislike forced PvP.  Games with that niche themselves in the western markets.  I'm hoping that the Devs here will not take the game down that path.

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Savin, i tried to be patient with you - but your an ignorant troll. Get out of my eyes. You have no clue of what your speaking of. First rule in systems and game design is to never give people what their begging for the most, never to make it easy, never to make it a 100% what they want. Now PvP players wouldnt get what they want if a working guards system would be implemented - since they couldnt grief to their liking. And Pve'ers wouldnt get 100% what they want aswell - the absolute security. This aspect would enhance the game for both parties. Anybody coming from these kind of professions will tell you that. Experience in this business proves me right. You - cannot prove me wrong. So - im done with you troll.

Your right Wraith - PVE servers are safe. Uhm - but wheres the numbers your talking of in people diskliking pvp? And if you misinterpret a woking guard system as absolute security, youre wrong of course. Thats the purpose of a guard system with open pvp - to not be 100% secure all the time - but most of it. It worked to a full extent in Neocron for example. Its just a matter of implementation.

So - both of you are going the way of indirect repercussions? Are you serious? How is someone with a brain supposed to talk to this simple minded style your calling out for?

If y<our serious you are simply too narrow minded or have too less experience in these things to have witnessed proper implementations of what im talking of. Thats not my fault guys. Do better homework next time.

The thing you are describing is known as 'rolling experience' - a game develops over time, changes, is dependant on player types - the game you mention - suffer from this system inherent disease to a normal extent. In wow for instance - open pvp worked perfectly when there werent even PVE servers - and instanced pvp was brought up to gain system stability.

PVE servers came when to marketing targeted at different people. SO maybe thats the way to go - bring a PVE and a PVP server.

Im not forcing anybody to anything. You should just get the sand out of your ***.

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Re: PvE vs. PvP - the endless discussion

Aww, we made him mad. He even quotes wikipedia definitions; vry srs bsns.

I honestly have no idea why we were so hard on him; after all, what's the harm in some German guy wanting to impose his will on everyone? tongue

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23 Reply by Dromsex (edited by Dromsex 2011-01-23 03:11:31)

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You dont make me mad Savin, you just are clueless and an amateur when it comes to the things your talking about, which wouldnt be bad if you werent trying to outsmart others.

Prolly you even payed for one of my concepts as an enduser ;D Thanks!

Btw - see? You become creative when loosing - even if its just anargument. Same goes for the game. Next time you gonna own yourself - pls tell me in advance, youd save me time.

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I have to give you props, you're doing a good job- even now, you argue from an authority you don't have- you're a kid who took a programming class that someone called "systems design," and now you think you're something else.

But look, that's irrelevant: I'm wiser than you, much, much, smarter than you, and a hell of a better writer than you. So by all means, keep it up: I have experience, intelligence, and the English language on my side. You do, however, have impotent rage- and that's something.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

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25 Reply by Greenleaf (edited by Greenleaf 2011-01-23 04:28:35)

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Re: PvE vs. PvP - the endless discussion

How could you guys expect the devs to read this when you rail road it into a pit a flaming $h!t.

Amen guys,. well done,. I think its time for a group hug.=p

Im gonna be blunt, after 3 weeks the game is boring me to tears,. lets try an help them fix it.