Topic: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

WALL OF TEXT ALERT, WALL OF TEXT ALERT

TL;DR in the bottom

For anyone who PvPs actively, it is clear that the new patch is going to introduce dramatically meta-altering robot reworks. On one hand, it is a good thing that devs are trying to take an active participation in balance, and personally for me, new balance changes are always exciting to follow as to how the balance meta progresses and how I can actively participate in it. Another intention of devs seems to be lessening the gap between newer and older players.

On the other hand, the new balance changes, as it stands right now on PTS server, will bring a lot of, perhaps, unwanted or overseen changes, making not only several robot types, but even some layers of combat, quite obsolete. It means either further rebalancing to more or less equalize play styles and robots (read: more work for devs), or abandonment of certain combat styles by players. To me it seems like an unnecessary step at the current stage of development, as changes of such magnitude will INEVITABLY create extremes and will definitely need more polishing - this seems like throwing away all the balance changes that happened in last 3-4 years. Balance changes itself don't attract new players either, so I'd rather have devs focus on creating new features rather than spending time going through the combat balancing phase again (sorry for playing couch dev here, but this is how I see it).

On top of that, current balance is quite good anyway, so wouldn't it be logical to rather boost current lacking bots to the playable level, rather than make another huge unnecessary step that will lead to more work load?




Look, combat in Perp has several aspects of it: DPS, EWAR confrontation, armor and repairing, accumulator management + EnWAR => all of them have also sublayers to it, and of course there are other factors on the battlefield (such as terrain management, speed, interference, etc, but let's not talk about them for now). Right now, a smart distribution of robots between each of those roles can help players defeat larger less organized or less prepared groups of players, as many playstyles counter some other playstyle, hence there is no 'cookie-cutter' playstyle currently present, aside from several robots who perform certain roles better than its analogues (I'm looking at you, waspish).

WITH the new patch, following the changes on the PTS server, it would be a lot more convenient to substitute nerfed robots/playstyles with other more effective robots - for example, the nerf on ictus means that any group of players would be better off fielding a more effective robot instead (such as healer/energy transferer bot), so the group can maintain maximum efficiency for the numbers it has on the field, rather than suffering from having a unit that doesn't bring much to help the group win. That is why there are a lot of posts and topics asking for EP refund, as the whole ROLES of players are being abolished, meaning that 600k+++ EP that you spent into something are going into nothingness as they could be much better off spent in some other, more useful role instead.

It is important to understand that this has NOTHING to do with how overpowered or underpowered bots are - because the new changes affect the effectiveness of playstyle as a whole against other playstyles present. When playstyle or role becomes nonviable to field and it is better to have anything else in that position rather than this bot, no one will ever even think about prioritizing this nerfed role.

It doesn't affect only new Ictus - it is absolutely clear that other bots like Zenith, Waspish, Tyrannos, all of them become nonviable to field. Like Zenith, for example, doesn't do anything better or anything more useful now than Vagabond, or in that respect any other bot you can bring instead of zenith. It is better to have pretty much anything else rather than them, because they don't have anything special or strong to bring to the fight, no matter how much you play around with their fits. Also because other new alternatives are much better.




In the current system, every role/playstyle is quite strong in its own area. However, there are a few bots and roles which have better stats than its analogues. Couple of examples:
- waspish vs other assault bots (arbalest and baphomet are quite weak, mainly because of Waspish's range bonus coupled with better terrain handling of rockets. Arba's and bapho's bonuses are useless compared to that)
- utility of light bots vs other bots in general
- industry bots might use some helpful combat bonuses to increase their presence on the field, but this one is debatable

Current system also offers good tradeoffs such as "range vs DPS", or "range vs tankiness". New changes will also affect those tradeoffs and it will need another balance review, as for example for mechs choosing to pick range or dps is not gonna be a question at all, when assault bots will be better in any case irrelevant of what you choose (that new bapho).

Overall, currently still we're in the phase of recovering from the speed change and terrain change (more trees) fixes. For example, yesterday's fight was a fight like I've rarely seen before - very close range, face-to-face, long chase on heavies vs heavies (even though admittedly both fleets were more or less medium range fitted), as a result of those recent reworks. Personally I haven't got used to that yet, especially to the new pace of combat.




Rather have EP gap decreased by introducing better premium system (AT LEAST 2x EP gain instead of 1.5x) - it both nets steadier income and helps new players. Also there are many other ways of rebalancing the gap, instead of screwing over the work of previous several years and entering another back-and-forth balancing cycle. New changes are scary as they change the whole equation of combat, not just making something more or less powerful. TBH, in the beginning I was pretty excited to see new changes after reading the blog; however, after reading the actual % changes and trying it on the live server, I was quite surprised.

I feel there is a lot more to be said about that topic, but these are just some basics to thinking about.


TL;DR new combat changes too dramatic. Rather slightly boost/nerf current underused or overpowered bots and roles, rather than enter another balancing cycle. If changes are done, too many unsatisfied vets who would rather play a different role because nerfs are too severe. Find new ways to decrease EP gap, and focus on features that bring new players and help them stay, rather than spending working hours on balance.

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu

2 (edited by Inda 2014-11-11 14:18:36)

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

I can AGREE !!! (But also, if balance patch happenes not that bad.)
Guys no need to do this, ok I can see the benefits also, but simply dont needed to make it!
Make new bots, and make some more valuable as Weedy say.

Good write Weedy!

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

3 (edited by Supremacy 2014-11-11 14:53:40)

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

oof



need to change around EP for free


2X ep SYSTEM


----   In before Anni analyzes post word by word, then dies in a gargoyle

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

Weedys spot on,

You want to lesson the EP gap instead of 1.5 ep gain move it to 2.0 or 2.5 multiplier

Buff other bots.  Not straight Nerf

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Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

While there are some current balance issues, I feel they are slight.

Most bots are very useful and have a set role, some vital to pvp.

I feel a buff to assaults in general would be good.  I think making perhaps heavies more about tank and less about damage is good.

However the current balance seems to neuter a lot of bots sole purpose, makes a few bots incredibly powerful, and overall just shifts the useful bots a bit while at the same time making the vital (and in some cases only) role for a lot of bots non existent.

From what ive heard more bots will become useless and bot will become useful, which imo is a bad move considering more useful bots within a pvp fleet, having a vital role, is more beneficial overall than what is on the plate here with the current changes.

Im wondering if its possible to make blue bots more viable for how pvp is played, while making assaults overall more deadly, making light mechs perhaps fast, fragile, and more long range focused...keeping EWAR as a useful addition without having to spam them....and making heavies just big tanky things....without the need to neuter a whole bunch of specific bots.

I think perhaps the better route would be slight, very fractional changes, over time, to adjust for balance issues, rather than just rewriting the bot functions as a whole in what seems to be a change based not on current gameplay but on some theoretical calculation as to what the bots should do and how they should preform.  On paper things always look different than how it plays out.


I feel the current changes in general are meant to make assaults more the bread and butter of a fleet with DPS, which I want....however does so while neutering the common assault DPS, ignoring the red headed step child of assault dps, and making the other faction the go to dps bot of assaults....that's not balance that's just shifting power.  Top it of with some confusing green bot nerfs that seem to take away their use in almost every scenario....all while buffing an already commonly used heavy without addressing why some of the other heavies were used less.

Anyway.  This seems less about balance and more about shifting usefulness while making some bots that have vital roles in a fleet into something you would only use because you have no other choice due to EP constraints.

You have to think about why some bots are used more than others, and if taking that advantage away, or purpose away, will then render them a bot that will never be used as to have no specific use.

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Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

lights and assaults needed a buff. Mechs getting demob resist is cool, make them more like mobile damagebots but not nearly as tanky as heavy mechs. Heavy mechs should be super tanky but deal about the same dps as a mech and be far less mobile.

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

I must admit it's a good post, and the concerns are a possibility, though overly dramatized.

Just to point out to the Devs before any balancing is done they need to look at the roles of each bot in detail and all the variable possibilities with different fittings, not an easy task.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

a lot of words - meaning little....
everything is simple and short:
1. Stop the developers to engage in unnecessary changes
2. Add a new faction (ewar faction, gun faction, or other.)
3. The most important thing now - to increase online

Just @ Game

9 (edited by Stranger Danger 2014-11-12 20:21:38)

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

BadAss wrote:

a lot of words - meaning little....
everything is simple and short:
1. Stop the developers to engage in unnecessary changes
2. Add a new faction (ewar faction, gun faction, or other.)
3. The most important thing now - to increase online

get a better translator

better to lay out in a coherent manner the issues with the upcoming balance change, in terms of explaining it to the devs, than it is to just lay out a generic 3 point list of stuff with no details.

Anyway once you do start to pvp with your corp, perhaps your outlook on things might change a bit.  Wont know that until you actually do pvp (perhaps you have an alt in another corp who pvps a lot that I don't know, assumed R. was a pve corp due to never seeing them ever in pvp)

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Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

He's the guy with the bad botting program farming npcs in hershfield.

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Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

Ville wrote:

He's the guy with the bad botting program farming npcs in hershfield.

No, that's querty.

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Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

No that's baddass, stand next to him for more than 5 minutes and you'll get locked at a timed 15 seconds.

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Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

The new nerf erp..... nerf ictus again.
Agree some of the nerfs are very drastic and reduce role of robots to a null factor. Green bots got boned hard in all aspects.

Anonymous: lobo is the only hero left in this god foresaken game / :also, Lobo is god among men
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Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

like i said already somewhere else,
Syndic requested ictus nerf:

Syndic wrote:

By nerfing EWar you don't create a situation where 5 Heavies run around killing 15 EWar with impunity, you create a situation where those 15 swap to Heavy & Ictus & RR and violate you even harder then before.

Syndic wrote:

However, so does 2+ people shooting 1 person. If 5 people shoot you and insta-kill you, doesn't that ruin your day? There's no chance to fight back, you're insta-killed. Or neuting - if 2 Ictus volley you, you have no accumulator and can't fight back. Doesn't that ruin your day too?

or better:

Syndic wrote:

Delete all ewar from the game
The ictus will reign supreme

Syndic wrote:

In the current metagame, if the Devs touch EW even by the slightest percentage it will herald the arrival of the Ictus FOTM.

He pointed out that its going to be overpowered if EW is nerfed even a little bit.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

so lets nerf it all \o/

kind of like the attitude with gamma...

Instead of adding the counter to EW or Gamma lets nerf it into the dirt.

Could have kept ewar and en war and just added appropriate skills to counter and modules. Could have left gamma interesting and profitable if you added the larger class of mechs meant to siege it.

Could have made this game fun, but instead lets nerf it to hell.

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

Somehow I see this patch as the executioners axe looming over a wounded animal.

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Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

Annihilator wrote:

like i said already somewhere else,
Syndic requested ictus nerf:

Syndic wrote:

By nerfing EWar you don't create a situation where 5 Heavies run around killing 15 EWar with impunity, you create a situation where those 15 swap to Heavy & Ictus & RR and violate you even harder then before.

Syndic wrote:

However, so does 2+ people shooting 1 person. If 5 people shoot you and insta-kill you, doesn't that ruin your day? There's no chance to fight back, you're insta-killed. Or neuting - if 2 Ictus volley you, you have no accumulator and can't fight back. Doesn't that ruin your day too?

or better:

Syndic wrote:

Delete all ewar from the game
The ictus will reign supreme

Syndic wrote:

In the current metagame, if the Devs touch EW even by the slightest percentage it will herald the arrival of the Ictus FOTM.

He pointed out that its going to be overpowered if EW is nerfed even a little bit.

You misinterpret my words, I never requested a nerf I merely pointed out that it's *** to go in with a sledgehammer and nerf EW without considering the consequences it would lead to - such as ICTUS SUPREMACY, which we already field-tested and demonstrated with 6-7 Ictus + DPS + RR fleets.

The same situation is happening now - DEVs are going in with a sledgehammer without considering consequences. The reality is that our 3-4 think-tanks know this game better then Devs & rest of the server combined, and they've already came up with two or three variations we will field-test whenever the opportunity raises like the other night when we welped you without a single loss on our side.

The beauty is we have assets and accounts that do everything - rest of the server doesn't. So all of your guys that put points into green and stockpiled green bots, are now worthless. Hope they enjoy playing like that while they wait for a year of EP to be more then cannon fodder. lol

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Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

Ville wrote:

No that's baddass, stand next to him for more than 5 minutes and you'll get locked at a timed 15 seconds.

Given that you were accusing me of the same thing I would give the same answer. Proof or stfu.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

19 (edited by Weedy 2014-11-13 15:16:48)

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

If you compare the effect of nerfing ictus vs its counters or substitutes, ictus loses every time. It has a very narrow role of energy draining, it cannot do anything else basically (except tanking to some extent, if the enemy doesn't have an ictus to counter it; however, its tanking resource is the same as its offensive resource, so it's not that effective).

With the new patch, it is much more efficient to roll out transferer/repairer bots, because they offer a lot more versatility - you can heal, you can transfer energy to buff up shields, you can transfer energy for people to shoot, you can repair destruction SAP. If your fleet has 2 ictus, and my fleet has 2 repair bots - I am in a lot bigger advantage than you. You can't even neut non-stop in the current version - when you neut someone, you need to maintain your own accumulator level. WITH the nerfed neuting power, I don't even see how it can remotely be useful vs bringing other stuff to the field.

If Devs really wish to nerf ictus, bring its counters or substitutes on the same level instead - for example, buff energy transfer modules or give industrial bots energy transfer bonus => This way it both incentives playing more support bots AND indirectly nerfs ictuses, by actually bringing more variation to the game process.

Same applies to other direct nerfs.

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

The sky is falling!

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

Burial wrote:

The sky is falling!

Game balance matters a bit more when you actually play the game.

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22 (edited by Burial 2014-11-13 19:02:11)

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

The rabble is awfully one-sided.

23 (edited by Celebro 2014-11-13 19:07:36)

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

It's obvious whats wrong, when Devs give no defense to their changes.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

Burial wrote:

The rabble is awfully one-sided.

I'm happy to hear your arguments. Otherwise your posts bring no value. Neither does your background. Sorry, but that is a fact. Please present us some evidence.

I believe pvp could be very exciting and the game has what it takes. But this is game is ruined and we all know  by who, it´s by corps like CiR, -77- and PHM. - by Fu ManChu

Re: Thoughts on balance, pre- and post- new patch.

I'm gonna take a leaf out of peanut's book and just let the Devs shoot themselves in the foot.

Can't wait for these changes gunna be gud! big_smile

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