1 Topic by Burial (edited by Burial 2013-09-20 01:00:48)

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Topic: EW needs nerf

Something that widens the gap considerably could be the overpowerness of curret EW.

The average newbie will usually work on their combat bot skills, leaving EW to the background. In return it means whenever going head to head against vet fleet, they would be overpowered with the amount of EW they would be hit with.

There's nothing worse to fleet morale than being completely cut off from fight thanks to EW. I did the math, one ECCM on a Heavy cuts ~50% jam chance to about ~40%.. laughable.

Killboard is filled with examples of big fleets fighting eachother where one side takes only few losses and it all boils down to EW.

Why is it so that my Vagabond MK2 is able to shut down 2 Heavies without any issues while being completely behind cover?

Maybe this is topic for another thread..

(EW nexus range amount is seriously unbalanced too btw: +29% EW range just from a Nexus.. nuts)

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Re: EW needs nerf

And Ewar is way overpowered.

Just no one wants to talk about it, in a serious manner.

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Re: EW needs nerf

Ewar is the new Crowd Control (CC)

Everyone loves CC until it is used against them.

I loved my V MK II, unless I got jammed, then it sucks.

4 Reply by Homer J Simpson (edited by Homer J Simpson 2013-08-29 01:55:17)

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Re: EW needs nerf

I think the size of the bot / mech should have more of an impact on Ewar Strength when used against a given target maybe?

Im a bit rusty tho with the whole ewar thing sad

even tho i've spent 300k + Ep on related skills fuuu

perhaps (im just spit balling here! tongue )

ECM could be a mix of LOS & non LOS.

To hit long range targets you need LOS but short range non LOS would work?

say if your range was 900M any target within 450M wouldnt need LOS but any beyond that would.

would make terrain control even more important. would allow smaller faster bots to get away or flank around due to be lower to terrain?

any way just a thought.

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Re: EW needs nerf

Short and long range ecm modules? Like D-mob... Interesting...

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

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6 Reply by Homer J Simpson (edited by Homer J Simpson 2013-08-29 02:22:37)

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Re: EW needs nerf

Shadowmine wrote:

Short and long range ecm modules? Like D-mob... Interesting...

Hmm yeah that would actually work & be interesting smile

Also you could also diversify the types of ECM
.

Also as a Zenith driver. Suppression is perfectly balanced & shouldnt be touched! big_smile

Actually EVE's way of making you choose between lock time or locking range thru the use of scripts could be interesting to see in this game.

E: you could have suppression Ammo for you Modules tongue that effects its target in different ways (same for ECM).
You could also do the same kind of thing with the Ictus. why should you just be able to nuet or drain acc. why not have modules that effect cap recharge time? Perhaps that could be an AOE weapon?

Nerfing game mechanics some times is needed but a pure straight out nerf isnt always the best idea on its own. Im always for game balance thru diversifying content

7 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2014-05-31 22:50:25)

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Re: EW needs nerf

1. Active ECCM item. When active, drains accumulator similarly to masker. Every second a set amount based on your surface size.

2. Make EW require line of sight.

3. Reduce EW nexus to something like 14%.

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Re: EW needs nerf

At least we are having a dialog about this.

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Re: EW needs nerf

Merkle wrote:

At least we are having a dialog about this.

OH CRAP.. UM... STC SUCK .. MERKLE IS A BAD FC... YOUR TOUGHTS ARE NOT RELEVANT.

ok now i feel better big_smile

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Re: EW needs nerf

How does EW effect the 'gap' more then getting 1 shot by mesmer mk II's?

11 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2013-08-29 17:58:51)

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Re: EW needs nerf

The counter for not getting 1 shotted by Mesmer MK2 is simple: Plates.

The counter for EW is ECCM. In theory it should work but in reality the math doesn't favor it's use. ECCM is too weak not to mention when you fit 3-4 of those, you will sacrifice damage or range.

Now add that 1 player in a EW mech is able to shut down 2 enemies in combat bots, it turns the battle around considerably in favor of the player who fields more ewar.

I know there's already tons of advantages for vet players, but something as overpowered as current EW beats them all by a long shot. It kills all newbies morale when they head out to fight vet players and get 0 kills because all of their DPS bots were perma-jammed. Killboard is literally filled with those examples.

Merkle wrote:

And Ewar is way overpowered.

Just no one wants to talk about it, in a serious manner.

If most active and best PVPer in the game says it's broken then it is broken. Something for the devs to consider.

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Re: EW needs nerf

@ burial

You need to look at the whole picture, you assume a skilled vaga pilot. However if the mesmer for example is equally skilled it would take 4+ ecms to even slow me down. 10 second ecm with a 40 to 60 % to jam a target that relocks in under 3 seconds nd fires every 5.

You would nerd suppression to  lock the mesmer out of combat and one Eccm makes the supressions miss . You now have 2 bots trying to stop 1s dps. All this has to be done before you are 2 shot.

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13 Reply by Heliaso (edited by Heliaso 2013-08-29 19:01:51)

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Re: EW needs nerf

Don't try to balance modules when the balancing between robots is already broken.

Resistances, damages, accumulator regeneration, shield, robot bonus need a complete revamp before trying to change the modules.

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Re: EW needs nerf

There's only so many head slots, I could reachout to 750m with (2) suppressors or I could use (4) at 500(ish) meters.

2 supressors can keep 1 bot out of the mix until they get much closer, mostly. 1:1 seems fair. And as lemon points out, 1 eccm can screw that up.

EW bots are squishy, so we tend to be at the back, so 500m puts the DPS roughly 200m from the front line. It messes with lock times, but doesn't completely neutralize DPS nor enemy EW.

I can't imagine how supression or ECM could work if it required LOS at any range.

15 Reply by Martha Stuart (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-08-29 19:49:48)

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Re: EW needs nerf

Why should jams and suppression be any different from neuts and demobs?  Seems rather one-sided to me.  If I have to line up 700m of open space for a long range neut shot, jams and suppression should be the same.  Not to mention that being locked out by EW is far more damaging than a neut shot or two.  Atleast you can run for cover from Demobs and neuts/drainers, but for some special reason that no one knows, ECM's and Suppression get to go through anything?

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Re: EW needs nerf

Martha Stuart wrote:

Why should jams and suppression be any different from neuts and demobs?

Simple answer is because they are different.

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Re: EW needs nerf

Lemon wrote:

@ burial

You need to look at the whole picture, you assume a skilled vaga pilot. However if the mesmer for example is equally skilled it would take 4+ ecms to even slow me down. 10 second ecm with a 40 to 60 % to jam a target that relocks in under 3 seconds nd fires every 5.

You would nerd suppression to  lock the mesmer out of combat and one Eccm makes the supressions miss . You now have 2 bots trying to stop 1s dps. All this has to be done before you are 2 shot.

All it would take is suppressor.

My Vaga has 3 ECM and 2 Suppressors. It's enough to shut down 2 heavies.

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Re: EW needs nerf

Burial wrote:
Lemon wrote:

@ burial

You need to look at the whole picture, you assume a skilled vaga pilot. However if the mesmer for example is equally skilled it would take 4+ ecms to even slow me down. 10 second ecm with a 40 to 60 % to jam a target that relocks in under 3 seconds nd fires every 5.

You would nerd suppression to  lock the mesmer out of combat and one Eccm makes the supressions miss . You now have 2 bots trying to stop 1s dps. All this has to be done before you are 2 shot.

All it would take is suppressor.

My Vaga has 3 ECM and 2 Suppressors. It's enough to shut down 2 heavies.

But no range extenders.

19 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2013-08-29 20:32:23)

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Re: EW needs nerf

I have 641m optimal on both ECM and Suppressor with nexus and without range extenders, thats even longer for a Zenith. Enough for most of the roaming fights especially because I don't have to slightly worry about line of sight. I go behind hill or structure and just sit there.

About the ECCM usefulness: I ran the math. 1 ECCM cuts jamms down from 50% to 40% against my not maxed Vagabond. Each subsequent ECCM puts it down further ~10%. This test is ran with Vagabond and ECMs, you have to remember that suppressors land even better.

Fully ECM fit Vagabond MK2 and fully Suppressor fit Zeniths can easily shut down 4 heavies. Lemon, you mention you have 3 sec locking time - it's not when you have even 1 suppressor on you from well skilled Zenith pilot.

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Re: EW needs nerf

Burial wrote:

I have 641m optimal on both ECM and Suppressor with nexus and without range extenders. Enough for most of the roaming fights.

About the ECCM usefulness: I ran the math. 1 ECCM cuts jamms down from 50% to 40% against my not maxed Vagabond. Each subsequent ECCM puts it down further ~10%.

Are we talking about balancing everything for roaming or for large scale combat.

Also, my 900m suprression/ecm is going to make your 641 useless against the heavies that I'm roaming with.

See how complicated it can get so quickly, the group composition makes a huge difference.

21 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2013-08-29 21:07:05)

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Re: EW needs nerf

I'm talking about roaming (beta) fights. Attacking gamma teleport walls and turrets is completely different story.

Also, your can't apply your suppressors on me when you can't see me, but this thread is not about that. It's about the fact that even when new players comes and fight vets, they will get rolled without getting even a fighting chance because they don't have counter ewar on the field. Look at the killboard for proofs. Ewar is one of the only reasons that makes otherwise good fights completely polarized to one side.

Ewar should be complementary to the DPS bots and require more concentration for it to be effective. I've tripleboxed 2 Vagas and a Zenith numerous times and it's not something I could do that easily with combat bots. To keep fights more interesting to all sides, EW needs to be nerfed or ECCM-s need to be boosted.

Arga wrote:
Martha Stuart wrote:

Why should jams and suppression be any different from neuts and demobs?

Simple answer is because they are different.

That's correct. They are different and not in a good way. A neut needs line of sight for work and usually takes only a bite out of you accumulator. You notice it, you hide and you get back to fight when accumulator is back in comfortable levels. An ECM and Suppressor completely shut you off the fight. Moving behind cover won't do you any good.

I understand there are a lot bigger issues going with the game, but I think when devs want to improve new player experience, they have to re-consider how EW works.

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Re: EW needs nerf

We should get rid of ewar totally.

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Re: EW needs nerf

Burial wrote:

Also, your can't apply your suppressors on me when you can't see me.

and you won't be locking down the heavies for the same reason

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Re: EW needs nerf

Burial wrote:

A neut needs line of sight for work and usually takes only a bite out of you accumulator. You notice it, you hide and you get back to fight when accumulator is back in comfortable levels. An ECM and Suppressor completely shut you off the fight. Moving behind cover won't do you any good.

But your also not in danger of dying from EW, compared to being totally vulnerable with an empty acc.

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Re: EW needs nerf

Not to mention, neuting with a sheilded green bot feels a lot different than standing in the open in a glass ew bot.