Topic: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

Hi there,

I have been searching for some kind of sci fri strategy mmorpg game for a bit now and Eve and Perpetuum were the only games that caught my attention. Just to put it out there, Eve is SO CLOSE to "that" game that I want to not just play, but be a part of. Perpetuum, even though closely related to Eve, is not... YET.

I understand that Perpetuum is in the works, and a LOT of things need to happen to not just improve the overall game, but to keep players interested past the trial time. Eve has me on one of those extendable leashes right now and I will tell you why.

Eve had, and still has, MAJOR issues with communication from the mission directions to the players reading them. The mission description or directions consist of, "go here, do this.". As vague and quite literally, as clear as mud. I never really considered myself a serious gamer, still don't, but I can at least understand, follow instruction, and learn a game. It is REALLY frustrating to enter a game, have all these windows pop up (or just on) with different things to read and see in them. Then, have the mission instructions skip basic steps that could mean ultimate confusion almost immediately. A new player doesn't come into a game to find out what the people are like, or at least I don't. I want to find out what the game is like, so I tend to ignore the people and just focus on learning the game myself, which I think I should be able to do. Tutorials need to be looked over very seriously, and stop this "slapping it together" with the instructions. It's very unhelpful and very unprofessional. I use the word "professional" because you are charging people money for this. If this was free, i'd say "suck it up" to whiners and complainers and tell them to ask someone.

Another issue was the pathing. You can target something, then click the "move to" button, or whatever it's called. If there is a rock in the way... you're screwed. Get some auto pathing going on in the game so that players don't have to sit there holding a button or clicking away in this "advanced space age robot" that doesn't even know how to read the landscape and manipulate a rock.

I am blunt, which sometimes I get carried away with, so I apologies if your feelings are slightly crushed. I do see this game being pretty sweet, but of course a lot of work needs to be done. At the end of my trial experience, I can't justify spending money on a game not just in development, but one that didn't spend enough time on the foundation of the game to keep players in. The tutorial. That being said, I will keep my eyes open on the ongoing changes that I hope will happen. Good luck with the game, I will check back periodically to see updates and news.

Deo

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

I never told you why Eve has me on the extendable leashes. They improved on the tutorials, even added voice communication to help further. The travel time can be very short, but it can also be very convenient. Autopilot while you quickly hit the can and grab a drink, pretty sweet to me. In a very short time, I had 1 mil. If I failed a mission and lost my ship, it was VERY easy to get the ship back and restocked with the mining and selling of ore. Not knocking the mining part of Perpetuum mind you, never did a lot of it.

A thought just came to mind, the big difference between Eve and Perpetuum is not just the ships and the mechs, but the "space" and the "landscape". You need to do more than just move forward, back, left, and right, be able to jump, shoot the ground, manipulate more of the environment. Shoot rockets at a mountain side to create a landslide to slow down or cripple another mech chasing you or something. That seems like a lot, but hell, that would be friggin sweet and a major attraction to players outside and inside the game. Just two more cents.

Deo

3 (edited by Annihilator 2012-08-09 18:10:35)

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

DeoJT wrote:

Another issue was the pathing. You can target something, then click the "move to" button, or whatever it's called. If there is a rock in the way... you're screwed. Get some auto pathing going on in the game so that players don't have to sit there holding a button or clicking away in this "advanced space age robot" that doesn't even know how to read the landscape and manipulate a rock.

actually, there is a pathfinding option ingame, but that one is, for an unknown reason, not triggered by the "follow" or "aproach" button. If you hold down "shift" and click on the minimap, it will eventually start the autopilot to that location, if didn't click on a plant or another impassable terrain object.

since our advanced space age robots only got the memory of a fly, it will forget about that path and the command when anything happens like a few milisecond lag spike...

BUT the option is there!

Sorry if i spoiled the fun for you about finding such an undocumented game feature on your own.
There are still many others to discover, hidden in two years of patchnotes wink

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

Oh yeah. It helps to read the devblogs too, lot of interesting tidbits in there. And it's light reading material.

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

TL;DR: Hello, i come here to advert EvE online.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

I think 1 of the big things that needs a Major Improvement, and re-construction, is the Learning curve. A more indepth training excercise which help New Members understand how things work. Having a game with such complexity for your average Gamer, who only knows how to press a button to swing a sword in a game, is not going to stick around once trying Perp. We live in a time where most MMORPG's involve cartoon characters and Cookies.

Although most of us here are against Simplicity in Games (I prefer the Complicated Aspect), but to grow the community we need to make it so the New Members understand it enough to stay more then their Trial Period.

I first came across Perp a year ago. On an Average of my Online time, there was about 30 - 40 people in General Chat (Weekend). A Year later on my return, there is 60 (Weekend). Currently there is 36 on a weekday for the same time. In a year that isnt really much Growth. I don't expect Miracles to happen over night, and understand that over time Perpetuum can grow to be a pretty decent, and active game. I just think simpler steps need to be re-worked to attract and keep a New crowd.

From what I understand (Not really being a Member to Perp for long [3 days being back] they have added a "Null-Sec" to try and help boost up the Gameplay, but once again, if we aren't attracting New Members to the Game to WANT to stay and understand, then I really don't see the point in bringing Shiny things in for the handfull of people who currently enjoy playing. I for one, would love to have more people around to have fun with, then a few extra Islands that you'd be lucky to see someone at.

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

they have added new islands to allow new player to distribute and "hide" from the leecherous roaming pvp herds.

good approach.

but then, they made it a several billion NIC adventure with no reward for the risk system again. Not beeing able to "start" an existance on gamma or beta, without grinding tons of stuff on alpha first is a known flaw.
There are also no consequences for leaving the "project" and doing your own thing....

IMHO the biggest letdown at the very beginning is the "fake" impression that this game has no "classes" and that youre able to personalize your char from start on. we wouldn't had so many patches changing the extension-point recovery mechanics if that would have been true.

If i remember back to the time when i created my first agent in early beta, i was overwhelmed by the pages of text at the character creation screens, and later regreted half of my irreversible choices. Well, the irreversible part was removed (attributes), but the pages of nonsense text and the still rather silly faction choice is still there.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

DeoJT wrote:

Eve had, and still has, MAJOR issues with communication from the mission directions to the players reading them. The mission description or directions consist of, "go here, do this.". As vague and quite literally, as clear as mud. I never really considered myself a serious gamer, still don't, but I can at least understand, follow instruction, and learn a game. It is REALLY frustrating to enter a game, have all these windows pop up (or just on) with different things to read and see in them. Deo

Funny that you mention this, because I have similar difficulaties with Perpetuum. Having played EvE for over two years, I'm used to steep learning curves wink

But even so, Perpetuum manages to be even less intuitive sometimes. In really boneheaded ways. Two things that really irritated me in the one day I'm playing now, just as examples:

1) Mining. Before you can start that miner module, you have to lock the tile with the ore, AND you have to go through the landmark info from the menu. That can be done waay easier, here is how I would design it:

  • -Select the tile with a single click. 
    -Start mining module. At this point, the miner will give you an error message if the tile does not have the right mineral for the miner or is out of range. Otherwise,  minig starts.

2) Collection missions with "get this part from point B". Nowhere does the mission description say that you have to interact with the inconspicious little white icon nearby. That almost made me crazy until I finally got the idea roll. Better:
Make the little "crate" at the collection point itself interactable.

But aside from those little usability problems, Perpetuum is a lot like "EvE on the ground". At this point, I consider it possible that I might stay around after the trial period.  smile

9 (edited by Celebro 2012-09-02 22:44:16)

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

Rabiata wrote:
DeoJT wrote:

Eve had, and still has, MAJOR issues with communication from the mission directions to the players reading them. The mission description or directions consist of, "go here, do this.". As vague and quite literally, as clear as mud. I never really considered myself a serious gamer, still don't, but I can at least understand, follow instruction, and learn a game. It is REALLY frustrating to enter a game, have all these windows pop up (or just on) with different things to read and see in them. Deo

Funny that you mention this, because I have similar difficulaties with Perpetuum. Having played EvE for over two years, I'm used to steep learning curves wink

But even so, Perpetuum manages to be even less intuitive sometimes. In really boneheaded ways. Two things that really irritated me in the one day I'm playing now, just as examples:

1) Mining. Before you can start that miner module, you have to lock the tile with the ore, AND you have to go through the landmark info from the menu. That can be done waay easier, here is how I would design it:
-Select the tile with a single click.  -Start mining module. At this point, the miner will give you an error message if the tile does not have the right mineral for the miner or is out of range. Otherwise,  minig starts.

Well perpetuum is just different, there is a much easier way: click the tile with ore and press f or r to lock then activate miners. I don't see how that's less intuitive than eve, we just get used to what is familiar. Tbh Perp has far less mouse usage than eve,  for more keyboard use.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

Celebro wrote:

Well perpetuum is just different, there is a much easier way: click the tile with ore and press f or r to lock then activate miners. I don't see how that's less intuitive than eve, we just get used to what is familiar. Tbh Perp has far less mouse usage than eve,  for more keyboard use.

Thanks for the hint smile.

Still, I think locking for terrain could be dropped competely. It's not like terrain will fight back and needs to be balanced for combat. For combat, I'll withhold judgment until I know the game a bit better wink.

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

there was the idea around, dropping locktime for groundtiles

but then was Terraforming implemented, and that IS used for PvP - and there it is important to beiing able to ECM/supress the terraformer. (thats just an example where a possible PvP situation prevents implementation of a confort feature in pve...)

though, completely removing the need to lock something for mining is a possiblity that, im pretty sure about, the designated coder DEV first answers with "impossible" wink

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

I'm going to start by saying i have never played EVE so i will just write my Perpetuum experience so far.

Saw this game on STEAM and thought i will give it a try. Watched the video clip and it looked interesting. Downloaded the game, liked the cool music = got me hooked. On charactor creation the PvP and harvesting was stuck in my head, so not knowing how this game works I whent for combat / harvesting I think.

In game I started the totorial and got so far, then I got bored of all the reading (not my favorit thing in the world due to having Dyslexia) and somehow chose a normal assignment where I got lost frankly. So whent back to the totorial and found myself stuck on the miner mission (the one that is defended by 3 mechs which kick your rear end) and basicly got so frustrated that I quit and even deleted the game.

A little later on I couldn't help but think about the game as it was still calling me back... somehow amongst the frustration the game had that challenge factor I have been looking for (most games whether singleplayer or MMOs these days are dead boring and have no atmosphere or challenge). Anyway I got my brother into the game (were both of older age by the way - not young) where he worked out how to do the miner mission much to my frustration plus we had help from two others who were there having the same hasstle. Would just like to say the mining totorials are not good in my view as they didn't really explain how things work, and that miner mission is an hard learning curve for someone thats new to this game. Anyway, once past that mission I started to get a feel for the game and how it works and then I started to enjoy and relax.

So I'm past the totorial and doing normal assignments which seem to be - go here and kill X amount / recover item rince and repeat / travel back and forward or harvest and go and make a cup of tea while waiting. So at the moment i'm loosing hope or any perpose as to why I should stay in the game, maybe its me I'm not sure. I will try and explain, I'm stuck in the thought of which way am I going in the game - whats my role ? - is it combat leading to PvP or is it harvesting ? or is it both?, can I do both with the mech I have and its chosen choices? because my start up choises when creating my charactor was combat/science/combat industrial - forgive me if i have those a little wrong but thats my understanding of it so far - but my choises seem to go againts what the game is teaching me. I think i'm more combat which I work for ICS DFD but i'm also doing some assignments for DFI but if i'm looking at this correctly I will be splitting up my EPs beetween the two and that seems bad as I will suffer - I think - its a complicated game and i'm lost to be honest.

I'm not really a pvper but it could be fun here. Harvesting I have always done in other games but it seems very complicated in this one but..well.. if you can't tell by now i'm lost as to which way I should be going. I haven't gone for all the starting combat chioses neither all the harvesting so I'm torn with my combat harvester - does this make any sense? or is it just me.

Last thoughts, its been a hard learning curve so far (mainly due to games these days being - well, I'll keep those thoughts to myself as not to cause any arguments) but this game does remind me of games of old and how hard they were back then but we managed.  Sorry for the long post but hopefully it may help the right peeps to understand a new persons experience so far.

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

Nibbles wrote:

So I'm past the totorial and doing normal assignments which seem to be - go here and kill X amount / recover item rince and repeat / travel back and forward or harvest and go and make a cup of tea while waiting. So at the moment i'm loosing hope or any perpose as to why I should stay in the game, maybe its me I'm not sure. I will try and explain, I'm stuck in the thought of which way am I going in the game - whats my role ? - is it combat leading to PvP or is it harvesting ? or is it both?, can I do both with the mech I have and its chosen choices? because my start up choises when creating my charactor was combat/science/combat industrial - forgive me if i have those a little wrong but thats my understanding of it so far - but my choises seem to go againts what the game is teaching me. I think i'm more combat which I work for ICS DFD but i'm also doing some assignments for DFI but if i'm looking at this correctly I will be splitting up my EPs beetween the two and that seems bad as I will suffer - I think - its a complicated game and i'm lost to be honest.

I'm not really a pvper but it could be fun here. Harvesting I have always done in other games but it seems very complicated in this one but..well.. if you can't tell by now i'm lost as to which way I should be going. I haven't gone for all the starting combat chioses neither all the harvesting so I'm torn with my combat harvester - does this make any sense? or is it just me.

Last thoughts, its been a hard learning curve so far (mainly due to games these days being - well, I'll keep those thoughts to myself as not to cause any arguments) but this game does remind me of games of old and how hard they were back then but we managed.  Sorry for the long post but hopefully it may help the right peeps to understand a new persons experience so far.

Although it is recommended to either go combat or mining or production, you don't have to be stuck in 1 role if you don't want to. Your choices on where to spend EP will only affect the time you spend on specializing something and won't "gimp" you in the long term.

In a sandbox game you need to set your own personal goals, maybe you want to be the richest person or the a badass pirate or be a master tactician, there is not really a story/quest line you can progress like other linear games, most of the contents are within player's control You can also join/start a corp and work towards team goals like base building etc.

We really need more people to step up and host tournaments and such. All the tools are available. Some are already in the works and it is something to look forward to

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

@Nibbles

My advice is to join a corp. I am aware it is ironic that a year+ old player like me gives that advice and I am still in the starter corp. However, that is mainly due to my RL constraints due to which I tend to disappear for a couple of weeks every month or so.

Alternatively set yourself a goal - mine is at the moment the biggest grind in Perp - kernel research.

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

Kokomut you mention sandbox game, yes this is something most games have untrained me for now sadly since the days of my old MMORPGs sandbox games and I have to open my mind up again and think for myself. Shame there is no story to follow but I gues this is where you make your own story and adventure up. Nice to have the freedom to do this, just need to relearn how too again.

Raptine you mention starter corp, there is different corps ?. To be honest I have stayed away from guilds/fellowships/corps in the past because of some bad experiences and also many games of today don't encourage teamwork but that can be akward as you say bacause of life commitments. I think todays biggest reason is: its just more easy and less hastle to play on your own for many reasons.

Thank you for the advice, I will keep playing and hopefully the game and I will work it out. Last time I played with Mechs was a boardgame with cardboard mechs that fell over a lot *chuckles* many years ago well ok, many many years ago but I didn't get into it because of working away from home. Never thought back then that I would be playing a game like this smile

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

about the corps:
the starter corp is just the NPC corp you start out with - it is chosen at character creation and designates your starting isle (TM=New Virg, ASI=Daoden, ICS=Attalica). Atm even if you leave it and become a freelancer it won't change anything for you. (*atm because I hope for at least a slight change here in future)
a player-corp has beside the teamwork here other advantages like corpstorages (if you have more than one agent/account) for faster "muling". I mentionend this one because many players ask for better ways of item transfer than using market or fieldcontainer. Have also seen some players open their own corp because of this reason.

about PvP: Beside the irregular tournaments, its the same as in every online game, if you have some friends / have good communication skills, PvP will never be a problem even if you are not in a corp and only have one agent...

about beginner choice at agent creation: it just doesnt matter what you did choose - you need just a few days of EP to completely change your way. Also if you found out that the path you tried is wrong, you are able to downgrade extensions lower than 6 (until your first 30 days of the account are over) and put the points somewhere else (starting extensions are fix).
After 3 weeks ingame are over you will surely know better which path to take and can concentrate on that; specializing on one profession proves to be most effective, but some things can be combined too (like laser and EM - both are turrets so there are some shared extensions <- missile launchers are not turrets).

17 (edited by Goffer 2012-09-05 14:04:52)

Re: Feed back of Perpetuum trial after playing Eve trial.

Hi Nibbles,

I understand form your post, that you are unsure about your role and goals and I want to line out, that your goals and roles are free to you, also free to modify whenever you like.
This is unconvienient for a lot player. A often set goal is to enter the bigest bot in best equipment.
This will take a lot of NIC as well as several weeks until the EP are available.
Followed by the goal beeing able to have enough NIC, to replace this bot, when you loose it tongue.

For the mix of combat and industrie in one agent you should be clear that a agent spending no EP in financial/mining/industrie but all in combat will be faster to have maxed combat skills. But after 3 months playing, the difference between lvl6 or level 8 is quite small.
A Miner will be faster having full benefit from mining, when not spending EP in combat skills, but again, after 3 month it is not that big deal, if someone gets 10 or 20% more ore per hour, as long as you have fun playing your agent.

Nevertheless a good number of Miner/Harvester have spend some EP in "Combat assistance" which is the logical role of a Miner/Harvester, while I know some people who spend EP in their Combat char for Indu skills like Repair/Recycling to be able to earn money without having an dedicated Indu Account.

The start specialisation leading to your start skills. You get a bit less than 10k (~1week of EP) for free with these start skills as well as several NIC you need to spend when purchasing the extension later. This is the only loss, you will have, when you detected later that you start in "wrong" corp. Regardless of combat/indu/commercial or if you detect too late, that you would prefer laser instead of EM or so.

A very profitable way for a miner to join combat with someone else would be to support a fighter with an mining/harvets bot fitted with energy transfer, remote repair and remote sensor. This support bot gives the fighter a decent boost as the fighter is then able to fit fully on dmg and neglect repair/energy.

If you check corp farm actions you see usually several of these support bots, as these boost farming significant. In my opinion these supporter are more important than a bot dealing dmg for succesfull farming on challenging spots.