1 Topic by Zortarg Calltar (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2012-08-08 08:50:25)

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Topic: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

quite a few players have complaind that you can not even build a small bot with the resources on the faction islands. and i have to agree that they have a point. especially for new players that want to go into industry this is very disturbing.
i think it is ok in some other fields like some of the equipment that is not totly one faction sided, but for the core stuff this is neither logical nor will it help the game.
i can understand that some trade between the islands is intended, but that will happen anyway cause most producers dont only produce items from one faction. so here my thoughts on the matter:

lets look into that problem.

here the list of resources that are needed for 10 of each nuimqol MK1 bots.
http://up.picr.de/11428819yw.png
as you can see the presence of faction ore and plants is ok, but do not take a major role in it. of cource the heavy presence of epriton is cause of the heavy mechs no question asked... and of cource we have left the equipment part out of this as well.

lets have a look at 10 T4 med EM-guns:
http://up.picr.de/11428887ht.png
here its a little better, but still the problem that there is no trilandus on glue islands.

so lets get down to the real problem. and that are the commodities.
if you want to change what resources you need then its all about the commodities. so lets have a look at the nuimqol faction commodities:
http://up.picr.de/11428938yy.jpg
as you can see they all need immentium (nuimqol faction ore)
each of them needs a different plant (only helioptris and prismo avalible on blue islands)
and something "liquid" (no problem here)

now we have to think what we dont want: we dont want anything thats not avalible on the faction island:
so the plants are the problem here. trilandus is not avalible on nuimqol islands so it makes little sense that they nians cant even produce their own tech without going to their enemies islands.

now we have plenty of posibilities to change that:
just a few thoughts here:

we can change all plants to the faction plant (helio in this case)
then we need to change some of the liquid so that we dont have 2 commodities that are made of the same stuff. so we can add either titan (general commodities) what is not so nice cause titan already plays a big role. so we can either give the faction ore more meaning and add the second ore avalible at this island (sternomit) or if we want to give plants more meaning then we can add prismo. both avalible on the nuimqol islands.

so we have a lot of possible choices here.
personlly i would prefer so give the faction ores and plants more meaning in these commodities cause they are not used anywhere else. so one final suggestion:
commodity1:
immentium, stermonit, heloptris

commodity2:
immentium, helioptris, prismo

commodity3a:
immentium, helioptris, hdt (<- this can be changed to liquid for another faction)
commodity3b:
also could work with: immentium, prismo, stermonit


other usefull ways are of cource possible too...
these are just my ideas so far.

/discuss

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Re: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

agree, just got different ideas about the refining tables.

I would like to see something like:

raw Imentium  Refines to:
- xxx Cholonin (pure imentium)
+ xxx Statichnol (liquid istope of Cholonin)

Both refining products then processed in refinery with other ore's or refining products to the final alloys used in production.

I dunno why Titan ore is the only remaining ore that can be refined on its own. IMHO all raws should be refinable into 1 pure variant + slag (or byproduct).


If they dont want to go that far, at least i would like to see:

fact. commodity 1: factional ore
fact. commodity 2: factional ore + factional plant
fact. commodity 3: factional ore + epriton
fact. commodity 4: factional ore + colixium

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3 Reply by Zortarg Calltar (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2012-08-08 12:16:11)

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Re: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

in general i like your idea anni, the only thing is that you need the plants present in a big way. cause the faction commodities are the only ones that use them.
yes the heavy presence of noralgis in a lot of things already boosted harvesting quite a lot, but to lower the general need for plants is no good idea in general.

the important thought in all this is the distribution in % how much the single resources should be needed compared to the other ones. this is not easy to determin because different stuff is used more or less often. but faction ore and plants are not used that much so we should not lower that further.

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Re: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

+1 very well  written.

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Re: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

+9000

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Re: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

Gremrod wrote:

+9000

I was under the impression that what the OP is suggesting is exactly what industry 2.0 was supposed to do...

+9001

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Re: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

Still puzzled by the reasoning behind some Indy 2.0 changes tbh. +9002

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Re: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

im looking at materials and commodities from a semi-realistic standpoint:

titan for structural elements
HDT as resource for hydrocarbon

Imentium as good conductor (railguns) and tough metal (vibration-proof armor)
Stermonite as crystaline material for solid-state-laser and recalcitrant alloys (kinetic armor)
Silgium as insulating material, used for heat-proof equip (missile nozzle, launcher, thermal armor)

....
Plants like Helioptris and Triandlus would be source for organic fibers in composites, 
Prismocitae as mineral source in alloys.
Noralgis as hybrid for higher tier equip.

actually, im missing Iron ore, siliciumdioxid and H2O as raws to gather for low level equip and especially Firearms...

the pre-indu 2.0 commodities had such a system in it.
I had expected that they make prismo and two of the factional decoration plants harvestable, and add a few more commodities to put factions into the production process.

I didnt expect the total revamp and puzzling of the refining lists. This also affected my choice for my weapon system at release:

i took LASER, the weapons made for masochists - highest accumulator and ammo consumption ratio, for worst low-extension/equip  tank-ability - because they had at least the simplest ammo (one ore)
now its 3 ores + plant for LASER ammo

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9 Reply by Goffer (edited by Goffer 2012-08-08 21:36:34)

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Re: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

Annihilator wrote:

fact. commodity 1: factional ore
fact. commodity 2: factional ore + factional plant
fact. commodity 3: factional ore + epriton
fact. commodity 4: factional ore + colixium

+1 this is quite simple and easy to understand. ATM it is quite hard to plan what resources you need for production without a full fledged spread sheet even when producing only a few light bots and T1 equip (what I actually have and use, but don't like for everyday use).

I think it is ok, to need a lot of different resources for T4 equip, but a light bot like yagel should not need 7 out of 12 different raw materials with 1 plant beeing from "enemie island". That would be ok (still not ideal) for assault, but not for smallest player produced bot in game.

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Re: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

Goffer wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

fact. commodity 1: factional ore
fact. commodity 2: factional ore + factional plant
fact. commodity 3: factional ore + epriton
fact. commodity 4: factional ore + colixium

+1 this is quite simple and easy to understand. ATM it is quite hard to plan what resources you need for production without a full fledged spread sheet even when producing only a few light bots and T1 equip (what I actually have and use, but don't like for everyday use).

I think it is ok, to need a lot of different resources for T4 equip, but a light bot like yagel should not need 7 out of 12 different raw materials with 1 plant beeing from "enemie island". That would be ok (still not ideal) for assault, but not for smallest player produced bot in game.

Not just light bots; assaults too.  This will help encourage pvp, and where is this advertising Zoom promised us?   I'm getting  tired  of killing the same 4 people over and over again.

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Re: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

Ideally, the usage of commodities should also reflect progression and effort:

small t1 firearms:
- titan should be everything necessary for the most basic weapon ingame
t1 firearm ammo:
- titan for the bullet cases, and HDT for "gunpowder" should be enough.

example for small em gun ammo:
- fact. com. 1 + titan = small kinetic only damage slug (low damage)
- fact. com. 3 + titan = small kinetic only damage slug (high damage)
...

offtopic:

Ville wrote:

I'm getting  tired  of killing the same 4 people over and over again.

is that the reason you put BKK on yellow without a message?

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12 Reply by Zortarg Calltar (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2012-08-09 09:05:57)

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Re: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

there are a lot ways to change this,
the fastest one that also will have the least effect to the system will be to change trilandus to helioptris. with that all 3 commodities still are different from their components and the main problem is solved.

of cource there are other solutions that i would prefer, but with the current problem and the amount of other stuff the devs have to do atm, this will surely do it for the time beeing. especially because you dont have to worry about other complications. with a total rebuild for the commodities there have to be done quite a few more calculations.
i havent checked for the other 2 factions but it should be similar there.

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Re: [Industry] Resources and Commodities

Annihilator wrote:

Ideally, the usage of commodities should also reflect progression and effort:

small t1 firearms:
- titan should be everything necessary for the most basic weapon ingame
t1 firearm ammo:
- titan for the bullet cases, and HDT for "gunpowder" should be enough.

example for small em gun ammo:
- fact. com. 1 + titan = small kinetic only damage slug (low damage)
- fact. com. 3 + titan = small kinetic only damage slug (high damage)
...

offtopic:

Ville wrote:

I'm getting  tired  of killing the same 4 people over and over again.

is that the reason you put BKK on yellow without a message?

No, but If you want o to discuss this openly on the forums, it was more about your general bad attitude about offensive pvp into gamma expansion, your back handed comments on the forums, and pulling all of your toons out of the standing squad without as much as a "Hey guys, I really disagree with you knocking sandcastles down, I think I am going to head back to alpha."  So if you want to talk about lack of communication we can start with those first which made us think you are secretly planning an evil plot that included world domination and trying to justify more hungarian math!  =P

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