Topic: Mining on alpha - no future?

Dear community, dear DEV team,

As mentioned in some other topics and on the test server forum, the problem with depletable ore fields slowly starts to rise over the alphas. Not even a week after the gamma patch, the issue already taking its place, and will get much worse in the future:

Ore field fragmentation. Today I randomly tracked two different ore fields with a directional scanner charge on Shinjalar. My accuracy is above 100%. In both cases the scanner led me to a field with only ONE BLACK tile. I returned back with some mining lasers, mined it out (1.5k stermonit in first case) and the scanner traced for the next field.

That will get even worse, when you look in the future. Mining on alpha will become only viable for big corps where someone is scanning and once found a reasonable field, a mining op will melt it down in no time. Casual miner which would like to mine for an hour or two in the evening, will have no chance.

And then there for sure will be people/corps that leave the field with only one tile, just to let others bump into empty fields.

A self defragmentation mechanic needs to be setup, when we dont want to loose mining as a complete profession on alphas.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

One of the possible solutions can be self-degrading of the whole spawn or just single tile - when the amount will drop lower than some predefined value, tile/spawn start to degrade slowly till fully depleted.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Line wrote:

One of the possible solutions can be self-degrading of the whole spawn or just single tile - when the amount will drop lower than some predefined value, tile/spawn start to degrade slowly till fully depleted.

There should be an system, that checks once in a while the amount of tiles left and the overal ore quantity in a field. Once both amounts are below a certain percentage of the initial quantities, the field will be deleted, if the overal ore amount has not change for a certain time.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

To me it looks like you are whining about the very effect the Devs intended to introduce with this change - making mining a bit less predictable.

Look I understand you weren't thrilled that you didn't immediately find fully red fields 2m from the terminal, but you make it sound like hours of coordinated effort were wasted while you ran around all of NIA. In reality you probably spend like 20min doing all of that.

I like this change, it makes all areas of the map travelled more, you find people in unexpected places and some areas can be a bit more tricky to mine.

Yeah you can't 100% afk from start to finish anymore, but maybe that's not such a bad thing?

Finally, if 2 people scan in 2 different directions guess what happens to the time it takes to find a good field? But yeah, other people in my MMO???!

This is my blob. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

@Predator Nova

You seems didn't understood the whole problem. It's NOT about mining became more complicated and stuff - changes are great and fun actually. It's about a problem we will face in a month or two, when all the alphas will be filled with 1-black-tile fields making directional scanning useless.

So please keep your irony away and use more attention when read the posts next time.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Agree that fragmentation is a serious issue and definitely needs more attention from the DEVs.

7 (edited by Norrdec 2012-06-07 12:55:33)

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Limited number of ore pools - you will have to mine it out, or no more fields. In the long run people will learn to wipe it all out.

On the other hand I don't see anything bad with adding decaying fields with less than 1% ore in them (as in area scans 1%)

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

I would say, its a miner code, to clean up after yourself.
If you don't like to find tiny spots, you don't leave tiny spots behind.
If everyone would follow this guideline there shouldn't be any problem.

As for griefing... there are numerous and way more exciting ways of griefing than mining for hours to leave a spot behind... smile (but you always surprise me cool )

"Rock is OP. Paper is okay." - Scissors

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

DEV Alf wrote:

I would say, its a miner code, to clean up after yourself.
If you don't like to find tiny spots, you don't leave tiny spots behind.
If everyone would follow this guideline there shouldn't be any problem.

As for griefing... there are numerous and way more exciting ways of griefing than mining for hours to leave a spot behind... smile (but you always surprise me cool )

Who says its a miners code ...you?....what a rubbish answer to a real problem.

10 (edited by Line 2012-06-07 13:43:24)

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Problem is, that on alphas we can't kill each other...no pedagogical effects can be applied smile

Requesting then an ability to shoot someone almost to death regardless of their pvp flag!

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Even if a few miners are honourable enough to follow this "code", it becomes a big problem as long as many people do not. Also, it's not always selfishness. If someone only has 1h to play, he might not finish to complete field.

Seriously though, I think we need a serious solution to this of some sort.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Even if a few miners are honourable enough to follow this "code", it becomes a big problem as long as many people do not. Also, it's not always selfishness. If someone only has 1h to play, he might not finish to complete field.

Seriously though, I think we need a serious solution to this of some sort.

True, and don't forget that they have to have 100% scanner accuracy to see some of those like black tiles and *** too...

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

DEV Alf wrote:

I would say, its a miner code, to clean up after yourself.
If you don't like to find tiny spots, you don't leave tiny spots behind.
If everyone would follow this guideline there shouldn't be any problem.

As for griefing... there are numerous and way more exciting ways of griefing than mining for hours to leave a spot behind... :) (but you always surprise me :cool: )

The problem is you will leave spots behind if you dont have 100% geoscanner efficiency.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

14 (edited by Yakapao Doherato 2012-06-07 17:30:51)

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Crepitus wrote:
Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Even if a few miners are honourable enough to follow this "code", it becomes a big problem as long as many people do not. Also, it's not always selfishness. If someone only has 1h to play, he might not finish to complete field.

Seriously though, I think we need a serious solution to this of some sort.

True, and don't forget that they have to have 100% scanner accuracy to see some of those like black tiles and *** too...

^
this.

Any attempts to get EVERY miner following a "miner code" a just laughable. Even if we assume, anyone around is mining with a 100% effective geoscanner, (yeah now you have to first train it to lvl10, and equip a t4 geoscanner, if you like to mine on a riveler), and (lets dare to assume) following the "mine it completely out then leave" code
(which will never happen), even then there are always tiles left, that one easily oversee, as it might be dark, or a greenish-black tile is on a grass tile, or whatever....

Unlike some people might think, Im anything but whining about less profit/efort for myself. All Im trying to figure is, that the fragmentation problem WILL get worse and something should be done about it. But if devs and the majority of the alpha-miners think, its great the way it is, lets just the future tell us...

EDIT: I never said, I dislike the new field mechanics, its just the opposite: I like to not have to return to the same place over and over again. I like to go out and find something new. But how its currently setup, it will become a real pita for every alpha miner out there.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

I still welcome the dynamic material fields, but to require 100% accuracy to mine the last few tiles in a field or rely on guess work , is a bad mechanic that the Devs cannot ignore, and it has to change. Can't expect players to solve this issue of ore fragmentation either.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

So what everyone is saying here is....

I want easy mode mining with out the expections of doing the job right! Why cant i lazy mine!

Spend the what 5k EP in to geoscanning?

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

17 (edited by Line 2012-06-07 18:58:48)

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Already two CIR who don't know how to read haha oh wow.

No Lemon, thats not about easy mining.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Line wrote:

Already two CIR who don't know how to read haha oh wow.

No Lemon, thats not about easy mining.

T4 Geoscanner 70% accuracy

Termis - 5% bonus to geoscanning (lvl 6=30% bonus) advanced robotics

Giving you a 100% - i know hard right? i bolded it so you could read.

Then you get in your termis get your proper scan, then if you want to mine at top efficiencies you go get your big bad rivler to mine at your best rate with your accurate scan.

You don't see me hunting observers down and killing them with my detecting castel... i go get my mesmer mk 2 after i have found it and use my best bot to mop it up.

SO YES it is about easy mining.... if i leave 1 mob in a caravan it doesn't respawn does it?

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Wrong again, it's  not about 100% accuracy. Why are you so afraid of reading texts?

Same as with caravan hunters (good example, thx), there is no mining code, regardless of your thoughts. I think everyone remember that period when there was no caravans on alphas...imagine why? Oh yes just because most players doesn't feel that they should kill the WHOLE spawn - why, anyone will kill the rest later. As a result we got single mobs from caravans stuck in terrain here and there, was even hard to realise if they're a part of caravan.

So no, there will be huge fragmentation and no spawns, regardless of everyone's skills and stuff and so on.

This is internets, Lemon. People are unfriendly here.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

20 (edited by Yakapao Doherato 2012-06-07 19:56:53)

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Lemon wrote:
Line wrote:

Already two CIR who don't know how to read haha oh wow.

No Lemon, thats not about easy mining.

T4 Geoscanner 70% accuracy

Termis - 5% bonus to geoscanning (lvl 6=30% bonus) advanced robotics

Giving you a 100% - i know hard right? i bolded it so you could read.

Then you get in your termis get your proper scan, then if you want to mine at top efficiencies you go get your big bad rivler to mine at your best rate with your accurate scan.

You don't see me hunting observers down and killing them with my detecting castel... i go get my mesmer mk 2 after i have found it and use my best bot to mop it up.

SO YES it is about easy mining.... if i leave 1 mob in a caravan it doesn't respawn does it?

Of course its easy mining mode I try to get, Im so lazy that I just dont want to scan 2hrs every time before Id like to go mining! But I didnt ever think of some "99% pvp beta megacorps" to give another response on such topics. They are the last ones having issues with that problems.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Yakapao Doherato wrote:
Lemon wrote:
Line wrote:

Already two CIR who don't know how to read haha oh wow.

No Lemon, thats not about easy mining.

T4 Geoscanner 70% accuracy

Termis - 5% bonus to geoscanning (lvl 6=30% bonus) advanced robotics

Giving you a 100% - i know hard right? i bolded it so you could read.

Then you get in your termis get your proper scan, then if you want to mine at top efficiencies you go get your big bad rivler to mine at your best rate with your accurate scan.

You don't see me hunting observers down and killing them with my detecting castel... i go get my mesmer mk 2 after i have found it and use my best bot to mop it up.

SO YES it is about easy mining.... if i leave 1 mob in a caravan it doesn't respawn does it?

Of course its easy mining mode I try to get, Im so lazy that I just dont want to scan 2hrs every time before Id like to go mining! But I didnt ever think of some "99% pvp beta megacorps" to give another response on such topics. They are the last ones having issues with that problems.

I wonder if those "Pvp beta megacorps" leave tiles on purpose when alpha mining to mess with people

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Lemon wrote:

I wonder if those "Pvp beta megacorps" leave tiles on purpose when alpha mining to mess with people

I woner why aren't you busy mining out those pesky tiles, typing here instead

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Lemon wrote:
Yakapao Doherato wrote:
Lemon wrote:

T4 Geoscanner 70% accuracy

Termis - 5% bonus to geoscanning (lvl 6=30% bonus) advanced robotics

Giving you a 100% - i know hard right? i bolded it so you could read.

Then you get in your termis get your proper scan, then if you want to mine at top efficiencies you go get your big bad rivler to mine at your best rate with your accurate scan.

You don't see me hunting observers down and killing them with my detecting castel... i go get my mesmer mk 2 after i have found it and use my best bot to mop it up.

SO YES it is about easy mining.... if i leave 1 mob in a caravan it doesn't respawn does it?

Of course its easy mining mode I try to get, Im so lazy that I just dont want to scan 2hrs every time before Id like to go mining! But I didnt ever think of some "99% pvp beta megacorps" to give another response on such topics. They are the last ones having issues with that problems.

I wonder if those "Pvp beta megacorps" leave tiles on purpose when alpha mining to mess with people

who knows? this tread is not about guessing, but fixing a mechanic may lead to new troubles.
What do you think, will the ore prices on alphas do, when mining will be 3/4 moving around?
Oh wait...I forgot, "99% pvp beta megacorps" usually care a @%$§ about alpha markets and casual player troubles. They´re all self-sufficient.

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

Yakapao Doherato wrote:

who knows? this tread is not about guessing, but fixing a mechanic may lead to new troubles.
What do you think, will the ore prices on alphas do, when mining will be 3/4 moving around?
Oh wait...I forgot, "99% pvp beta megacorps" usually care a @%$§ about alpha markets and casual player troubles. They´re all self-sufficient.

Your right its not about guessing, so let my "mega-corp" ways enlighten you to the bulk vast majority opinion from within instead of a 2 man corp's opinion.

My top Alpha miner has now mined over 120m slig in just under 3 days casually. Why/How? Instead of undocking as he normally would and spend 30-40 mins scanning all his normal fields to find a good field he undocks finds his fresh field (on occasion a fragmented one) and then undocks his fleet and goes to take it out.

Now yes twice he has said he has hit a fragmented field on alpha and simply cleans it up to prevent it giving him issues in the future.

My mining fleet consist of well over 20+ dedicated Riv mk 2 pilots, all of whome with the exception of 1 agree the new system is better. Instead of tracking old fields down with resources you find a new one that has resource and go mop it up.

And no Line you know i don't have a single miner i have 9 combat accounts. i prefer explosions but in order for these explosions my miners have to mine to make bots for me to use to make them explode so there opinion i will argue for.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Mining on alpha - no future?

al it takes is some clean up from time to time. if you guys are too laszy then that is your problem. you want a clean island? then keep it clean. if there are a lot of lazy guys... well thats your problem. noone asks on gamma what you have to do when the field is largely under impassagble terrain. oh #*$§ i have to terraform...

what you basicly complain about is that you just want to undock and find your fresh fileds and get the nic running form the first minute. well i guess that time is over now and you have to do some other things besides it. ill call this making mining more intresting and less monotone. but i see no real problem, and iven if it only arises if you are lazy enough and dont want to do a thing. if you are on a boat and are aproaching a waterall you can scream "oh my god we are all going to die" or you can start to paddle. guess what happens if you keep screaming...